613 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

Your opinion of Marethari aside, DA:O and the story of Zathrian make it clear the Dalish don't like blood magic any more than Andrasteans do. It ain't just the Keeper at work there.

Actually, since the Dalish don't just outright kill blood mages, they kind of do. And Marethari made the problem far worse.

... yes, so?

Hawke chooses to put herself in danger.

Not giving her the knife may not make her less obsessed, but giving it to her certainly won't. Enabling an addict is never helpful (and her convo with Varric in Act III makes it quite clear her relationship to the mirror is that level of obsessive, though I admit that's kind of metagamey given the choice is made in Act II ).

I romance Merrill, and in doing so ensure that she has something to live for aside from the Eluvian. This is why I don't judge a non-romanced rivalry as harshly; that lack of connection could make things more difficult with Merrill. However, the full force of my unmitigated loathing will come down upon the rivalmance.

[Zjarcal]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Oghren's goodbye speech at the gates of Denerim before the Archdemon battle is one of those moments that gets me a little teared eyed still.

Indeed. Whether on max approval (I'll be the warrior you taught me to be), or less (Let's show them our hearts and then show them theirs).

I love that moment too, though come to think of it, it's the only moment where I actually like Oghren. That speech has colored my opinion of him really.

Regarding the speeches, I do agree that the DAO speeches were better, though for me the biggest issue was the lack of background music for the DA2 ones. When I did use some music for them (the same that plays in DAO), I actually liked them almost as much as the DAO ones.

Background music is important in moments like those.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Zjarcal wrote...
I love that moment too, though come to think of it, it's the only moment where I actually like Oghren. That speech has colored my opinion of him really.

I think moments like that and the Guardian (and confronting Branka), are the few moments where Oghren actually says / shows what he feels (who he is deep inside), instead of hide behind his bad humor and pathetic demeanor. So I wouldn't say it colored my opinion of him, just that it gave me another and more informed perspective. I'd agree that without moments like that, Oghren at first glance is a pathetic whiny perverted drunk. But that's not solely what Oghren is, imo.

And agreed about the bg music, it probably played a role as to why I didn't care. But it wasn't the only thing. Even the content didn't impact me (whereas remembering what Oghren and others said gives me chills without the music playing in my head), and well, I was indifferent to most characters anyways.

[Quething]

Xilizhra wrote...

Actually, since the Dalish don't just outright kill blood mages, they kind of do. And Marethari made the problem far worse.

Okay, I'll give you they're less reactionary, though they don't approve any more than the Chantry does. The difference is that the Dalish respect mages in general, so that's going to mitigate their willingness to just lop their heads off when they do something they don't like. Regardless, you've agreed that Marethari is not wholly responsible and the Dalish do have an inclination against Merrill's behavior, so we can call this one resolved.

Hawke chooses to put herself in danger.

... yes, so?

I romance Merrill, and in doing so ensure that she has something to live for aside from the Eluvian.

That's really not any healthier.

[Ryzaki]

Not to mention rival Hawke can suggest Merrill do something else with her life (like continuing to study dalish lore, or to help the alienage elves that she's been mostly ignoring for the past 6 years) and she thinks its a good idea. She's not completely lost and alone without the eluvian.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 13 août 2011 - 07:42 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Quething wrote...

I romance Merrill, and in doing so ensure that she has something to live for aside from the Eluvian.

That's really not any healthier.

It would make her a perfect instrument though, come to think of it.

[Zjarcal]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I think moments like that and the Guardian (and confronting Branka), are the few moments where Oghren actually says / shows what he feels (who he is deep inside), instead of hide behind his bad humor and pathetic demeanor. So I wouldn't say it colored my opinion of him, just that it gave me another and more informed perspective. I'd agree that without moments like that, Oghren at first glance is a pathetic whiny perverted drunk. But that's not solely what Oghren is, imo.

Oh no doubt about that, but I'm really still undecided on whether I actually like him or not. It's like, his disgusting moments really make me dislike him, but his good moments almost end up erasing those memories.

And agreed about the bg music, it probably played a role as to why I didn't care. But it wasn't the only thing. Even the content didn't impact me (whereas remembering what Oghren and others said gives me chills without the music playing in my head), and well, I was indifferent to most characters anyways.

Well yeah, that too. 

I do agree that the content itself was better in Origins, though I still think they are very close. But really, it was the lack of music that left me feeling so cold after hearing them in my first run. I was like "that did NOT feel right at all".

[Xilizhra]

That's really not any healthier.

And forcing her to admit that her life's work is idiocy and destroy it herself is, somehow? I find this unlikely.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Zjarcal wrote...
Oh no doubt about that, but I'm really still undecided on whether I actually like him or not. It's like, his disgusting moments really make me dislike him, but his good moments almost end up erasing those memories.

Yea I understand and I share the sentiment when it comes to Awakening. He had (few) good moments, but they are so touching and subtle that I am not sure if they make up for how much of a nuissance he is the rest of the time.

I do agree that the content itself was better in Origins, though I still think they are very close. But really, it was the lack of music that left me feeling so cold after hearing them in my first run. I was like "that did NOT feel right at all".

You just reminded me of my reaction to the bugged musicless credits. Act 3 left me with my mouth slightly open for a few minutes, I swear I am no joking.

[bleetman]

I'd like Oghren a lot more if he didn't go from 'you're like family to me, I named my daughter after you' to 'oh, it's you *belch*' between the end of Origins and the beginning of Awakening.

[Mr.House]

Hate? No one, this is the first Bioware game where I hated no party member. The one I dislike the most though is Beth. I just don't find her that interesting at all. She's sweet and adorable but hardly shows any dev at all, is just static and just felt meh for me compared to her twin.

[jlb524]

Ryzaki wrote...

Not to mention rival Hawke can suggest Merrill do something else with her life (like continuing to study dalish lore, or to help the alienage elves that she's been mostly ignoring for the past 6 years) and she thinks its a good idea. She's not completely lost and alone without the eluvian.

So can a friend Hawke.

[Ryzaki]

jlb524 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Not to mention rival Hawke can suggest Merrill do something else with her life (like continuing to study dalish lore, or to help the alienage elves that she's been mostly ignoring for the past 6 years) and she thinks its a good idea. She's not completely lost and alone without the eluvian.

So can a friend Hawke.

They can? 

So either way Merrill's not gonna be some lost soul without her Eluvian and bloodmagic. She has other skills and other goals that she can go after. 

[Xilizhra]

They can?

So either way Merrill's not gonna be some lost soul without her Eluvian and bloodmagic. She has other skills and other goals that she can go after.

But broken and emotionally dependent on Hawke if rivalmanced, and probably broken regardless.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...
So either way Merrill's not gonna be some lost soul without her Eluvian and bloodmagic. She has other skills and other goals that she can go after. 

Like demonstrate the wonders of Dalish abnormal cuteness merged with Orlesian excessive fashion, I am sure.

Where is Addai?

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 13 août 2011 - 08:02 .

[Zjarcal]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

You just reminded me of my reaction to the bugged musicless credits. Act 3 left me with my mouth slightly open for a few minutes, I swear I am no joking.

I got that bug too... and I felt so cold and lonely... 

[Sealy]

Hmm, I don't like Bethany a whole lot, She was very cookie cutter as far as charcters go. Sweet, compassionate blah blah blah. Plus if she rubbed in in my Hawkes face one more time about how I was apparently jealous of the time she spent with papa Hawke I was gonna freak. "He didn't pass me and Carver off on a nanny, jeez."

Mr. House, what is your DP of?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Zjarcal wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

You just reminded me of my reaction to the bugged musicless credits. Act 3 left me with my mouth slightly open for a few minutes, I swear I am no joking.

I got that bug too... and I felt so cold and lonely... 

I am sure the lightning made it feel better.....right?

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 13 août 2011 - 08:00 .

[Mr.House]

Xilizhra wrote...

They can?

So either way Merrill's not gonna be some lost soul without her Eluvian and bloodmagic. She has other skills and other goals that she can go after.

But broken and emotionally dependent on Hawke if rivalmanced, and probably broken regardless.

I see no proof of that at all, or is this just your bias coming into play?

[Mr.House]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
You just reminded me of my reaction to the bugged musicless credits. Act 3 left me with my mouth slightly open for a few minutes, I swear I am no joking.

DA2 credits where so dull

[Xilizhra]

Mr.House wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

They can?

So either way Merrill's not gonna be some lost soul without her Eluvian and bloodmagic. She has other skills and other goals that she can go after.

But broken and emotionally dependent on Hawke if rivalmanced, and probably broken regardless.

I see no proof of that at all, or is this just your bias coming into play?

It's my assessment. Belief or disbelief rests with you.

[jlb524]

Ryzaki wrote...

They can? 

So either way Merrill's not gonna be some lost soul without her Eluvian and bloodmagic. She has other skills and other goals that she can go after. 

Yes, both paths lead her to the realization that she needs to give up her obsession with the mirror.

On the friendpath, she even states that she needs to start living more for herself instead of always for The Dalish.

I think the only difference with the rival path is that she grows to hate the damn thing and it gets to the point where she destroys it.   I think because she's focusing all the blame on herself/the eluvian project.

On the friend path, she feels differently about where the blame should be placed (I think she blames herself but the clan as well) and doesn't necessarily think that working on the eluvian was a bad thing...but wishes she had done things differently...and wishes Marethari would have done things differently.  She keeps the mirror and she may work on it again someday out of curiosity, but for now it seems she wants to focus on doing something for herself...and you can suggest that she aid the elves in the Alienage, keep on studying Dalish history, etc.

Modifié par jlb524, 13 août 2011 - 08:07 .

[Ryzaki]

Xilizhra wrote...

They can?

So either way Merrill's not gonna be some lost soul without her Eluvian and bloodmagic. She has other skills and other goals that she can go after.

But broken and emotionally dependent on Hawke if rivalmanced, and probably broken regardless.

Please stop bullsh*ting. I played the rivalmance (unlike you) and that's completely untrue. 

jlb524 wrote...
Yes, both paths lead her to the realization that she needs to give up her obsession with the mirror.

On the friendpath, she even states that she needs to start living more for herself instead of always for The Dalish.

I think the only difference with the rival path is that she grows to hate the damn thing and it gets to the point where she destroys it.   I think because she's focusing all the blame on herself/the eluvian project.

On the friend path, she feels differently about where the blame should be placed (I think she blames herself but the clan as well) and doesn't necessarily think that working on the eluvian was a bad thing...but wishes she had done things differently...and wishes Marethari would have done things differently.  She keeps the mirror and she may work on it again someday out of curiosity, but for now it seems she wants to focus on doing something for herself...and you can suggest that she aid the elves in the Alienage, keep on studying Dalish history, etc.

Okay. Neither of those paths leads her to being depressed (forever anyway) and dependant on Hawke. From my view of the rivalmance it looked like she was becoming her own woman at that point and like all people regretted something but she was going to move on with her life. 

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Like demonstrate the wonders of Dalish abnormal cuteness merged with Orlesian excessive fashion, I am sure.

Where is Addai?

 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 13 août 2011 - 08:22 .

[Xilizhra]

Please stop bullsh*ting. I played the rivalmance (unlike you) and that's completely untrue.

So you think. Enjoy it, I suppose.

[Quething]

Xilizhra wrote...

That's really not any healthier.

And forcing her to admit that her life's work is idiocy and destroy it herself is, somehow? I find this unlikely.

Yes, it is, in fact. As jlb says, both paths lead her to abandon the mirror. However, on the friend path you allow her to maintain her delusion that she knows better than anyone else what's right for them, she was at no point wrong about her motivations or intentions, or in fact, anything else, and the sole source of her misery for the last six years was that the Dalish were mean to her and didn't understand her brilliance.

Obviously, if you happen to think any or all of that is true, you're going to prefer the friend path.

I disagree strongly, however. Merrill fell every bit as prey to Audacity as Marethari did, and if she wants to avoid repeating the obsessive behavior that nearly destroyed her, instead of simply refocusing it on Hawke, or whatever else next strikes her fancy, she needs to recognize that. If she's to have self-worth, it needs to be real; she needs to understand that she's valuable for who and what she is, not for what she can do with the mirror or what she means to Hawke. Letting her continue to associate her self-worth with the mirror project (or with the Hawkemance) does not achieve that.

Incidentally, thank you for this debate, it's been one of the most pleasant I've ever had on these boards. 

Modifié par Quething, 13 août 2011 - 08:27 .