613 réponses à ce sujet

[Ritara]

I didn't like Sebastian and Aveline pissed me of sometimes

[sylvanaerie]

By and large the character I dislike most is Anders. I hate him less after fully rivaling him and getting a completely different conversation after he pushes the shiny red button o'doom. But I still dislike him. He's a whiny, self involved twit I have no use for beyond his maps, and if I plan on making one of the siblings a Grey Warden. Otherwise unless I am doing one of his quests (in which case I am forced to bring him along) or if I am going to do something to rival him, he spends most of the game chilling in his clinic.
He is a complete and utter tool, who will spit on Merrill for her use of blood magic then defend people like that ****, Grace, 'as desperate' enough to turn to it. And lets not even touch on the fact that it was his anger that turned Justice from a spirit into a demon, yet he also conveniently ignores that until the final conversation with a fully rivaled Anders.
Perhaps it may be argued that they did a fine job writing him if he creates this much antipathy from me, but I much prefer characters in game who make me laugh and are pleasant to be around for the most part. Anders, with his "YAY Mages BOOO everyone else" (and yea, he has contempt for everyone who isn't a mage, not just templars, as most of his banters show) is most definitely not a character I enjoy having in my groups. The fact that his actions have caused the deaths of hundreds/thousands of innocent mages alive and yet unborn doesn't seem to overly concern him. "I'd rather die fighting"...yea...how nice of you to make that choice for everyone else too.
He also approves if you turn Fenris over to Denarius (+5 Friendship).
Frankly, murderknifing the whiny **** is my favorite part of the game.

On the opposite spectrum of this is the complete apathy Sebastian inspires with me. At least with Rivalry Anders and Merrill get some good moments. Sebastian is consistently blah regardless of which path you choose. Which is a pity. His intro video was so badass I got my hopes up wanting a bad boy archer like Nate. Instead I got someone worse than Leliana. At least I always got the impression Leliana's faith wasn't lip service, that she truly believed, and I genuinely like her. Sebastian is so wishy washy, he doesn't know what he believes, but he spouts "Maker this..." so much I just want to shove that bow so far up his butt he can nock arrows with his tonsils.

Frankly, I'd have been much happier if we had gotten Nathaniel Howe instead of these two.

The rest fall into a general category of "Occasionally annoying but they have their good moments". As I already said, Merrill is much more tolerable on a rivalry path, though her fanaticism still drives me whacko. I've never rivaled anyone but the 2 mages, (and on my last game, Sebastian) so not sure about the others.

My favorite character in the game is Varric. He's so laid back and easy going I find it hard to get any rivalry points with him at all. He gets along well with everyone else and easily has some of the funniest dialogues in the game.
If he were romanceable, I'd be all over that dwarven bard faster than he can spin a yarn.

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 21 août 2011 - 04:54 .

[miraclemight]

sylvanaerie wrote...

By and large the character I dislike most is Anders. I hate him less after fully rivaling him and getting a completely different conversation after he pushes the shiny red button o'doom. But I still dislike him. He's a whiny, self involved twit I have no use for beyond his maps, and if I plan on making one of the siblings a Grey Warden. Otherwise unless I am doing one of his quests (in which case I am forced to bring him along) or if I am going to do something to rival him, he spends most of the game chilling in his clinic.

He is a complete and utter tool, who will spit on Merrill for her use of blood magic then defend people like that ****, Grace, 'as desperate' enough to turn to it. And lets not even touch on the fact that it was his anger that turned Justice from a spirit into a demon, yet he also conveniently ignores that until the final conversation with a fully rivaled Anders.

Perhaps it may be argued that they did a fine job writing him if he creates this much antipathy from me, but I much prefer characters in game who make me laugh and are pleasant to be around for the most part. Anders, with his "YAY Mages BOOO everyone else" (and yea, he has contempt for everyone who isn't a mage, not just templars, as most of his banters show) is most definitely not a character I enjoy having in my groups. The fact that his actions have caused the deaths of hundreds/thousands of innocent mages alive and yet unborn doesn't seem to overly concern him. "I'd rather die fighting"...yea...how nice of you to make that choice for everyone else too.
He also approves if you turn Fenris over to Denarius (+5 Friendship).

Frankly, murderknifing the whiny **** is my favorite part of the game.

QFT.

Frankly, this is coming from someone who romanced him the first, second and third playthrough. It took me a virginHawke playthrough, with different party combination to realise what a douche he's really become.

The only reason I don't send him away by the end of Act II is for 1600+ exp and a single Deep Mushroom...

[sylvanaerie]

miraclemight wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...

By and large the character I dislike most is Anders. I hate him less after fully rivaling him and getting a completely different conversation after he pushes the shiny red button o'doom. But I still dislike him. He's a whiny, self involved twit I have no use for beyond his maps, and if I plan on making one of the siblings a Grey Warden. Otherwise unless I am doing one of his quests (in which case I am forced to bring him along) or if I am going to do something to rival him, he spends most of the game chilling in his clinic.

He is a complete and utter tool, who will spit on Merrill for her use of blood magic then defend people like that ****, Grace, 'as desperate' enough to turn to it. And lets not even touch on the fact that it was his anger that turned Justice from a spirit into a demon, yet he also conveniently ignores that until the final conversation with a fully rivaled Anders.

Perhaps it may be argued that they did a fine job writing him if he creates this much antipathy from me, but I much prefer characters in game who make me laugh and are pleasant to be around for the most part. Anders, with his "YAY Mages BOOO everyone else" (and yea, he has contempt for everyone who isn't a mage, not just templars, as most of his banters show) is most definitely not a character I enjoy having in my groups. The fact that his actions have caused the deaths of hundreds/thousands of innocent mages alive and yet unborn doesn't seem to overly concern him. "I'd rather die fighting"...yea...how nice of you to make that choice for everyone else too.
He also approves if you turn Fenris over to Denarius (+5 Friendship).

Frankly, murderknifing the whiny **** is my favorite part of the game.

QFT.

Frankly, this is coming from someone who romanced him the first, second and third playthrough. It took me a virginHawke playthrough, with different party combination to realise what a douche he's really become.

The only reason I don't send him away by the end of Act II is for 1600+ exp and a single Deep Mushroom...

Rival him, and do all his quests.  Speak to him following and try to convince him to change his mind.  It will trigger a different conversation at the end before you make the choice of killing him or not (and my Hawke even got the chance to 'forgive' him before killing him).  He finally mans up and I have gained some what more respect for him because of it.

But he's still a douchenozzle who always dies in my games.

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 21 août 2011 - 05:21 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Man, what banters and conversations are you listening to? He likes Varric and Isabella, (though he's frustrated by Isabella's refusal to take a side). His banters with Isabella are actually even friendlier than his banters with Velanna or Nate in Awakening.

Anders is basically someone who has decided he doesn't have any time to put up with bigots, and apologists for bigots. Which isn't exactly helpful, but I can totally understand it. He's mad as hell and he's not going to take it anymore.

I think it's stupid for him to go so adversarial, but I can also understand him rapidly losing patience with bigotry. He says the kind of stuff I think whenever someone says that [minority group] aren't human, or don't deserve equal rights. I try to push down my argumentativeness, but when someone's saying that your personal ethnic or social group does not deserve fundamental human rights... sometimes it's hard to smile pretty for the cameras.

This song explains it better:

"This is where the party ends
I'll just sit here wondering how you
Can stand by your racist friend
I know politics bore you
But I feel like a hypocrite talking to you
You and your racist friend

It was the loveliest party that I've ever attended
If anything was broken I'm sure it could be mended
My head can't tolerate this bobbing and pretending
Listen to some bullet-head and the madness that he's saying"

I can understand disliking Anders for a number of reasons, one of which being the fact that he is now TERRIBLE at arguing his case, or that he ultimately resorts to violence, or because he lies to you, or whatever. But he doesn't show contempt for all non-mages, only the ones who are anti-mage bigots, or people who support the current terrible system.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 21 août 2011 - 05:49 .

[devSin]

I definitely agree with most of the negativity toward Anders and Merrill.

I do like most of the others, though, for the most part. Varric, Carver, and Fenris are my A-Team, followed closely by Aveline and Isabela. Sebastian I think is much better than either Anders or Merrill, but he keeps asking me what to do without ever making me feel like actually I helped him reach a decision (but at least he tries, Merrill).

Modifié par devSin, 21 août 2011 - 05:59 .

[sylvanaerie]

The only banters I saw him trying to be friendly in are with Bethany (wow big surprise, another mage who isn't a blood mage or an abomination), and one where he tries to suck up to Carver, who is nastier to Anders than Anders is to the others. (one of the few banters where I actually felt sorry for Anders).
Every other person in the group he spends arguing/whining with about mages this, mages that, blah blah blah. It's even worse with Merrill and Fenris. But his banters are all about contempt of everyone around him, esp those who don't fit his narrow world view.
I'd love to say that it's just DA2 that did it to him, but I recently played Awakenings again and the seeds of the fanatic he will become in Kirkwall are there if seen with new eyes.
And Varric doesn't count. He gets along with EVERYone, regardless of who they are. If that spills over into Anders' banters, that's not something Anders did, but an aspect of Varric's personality.
Similarly, with Isabella, she rarely takes anything seriously (except the relic) and any insults hurled her way just seem to wash off like water from a duck's back.

[devSin]

I adore the way Fenris responds to Merrill and Anders. He's more brutal than anything I can do in dialogue, even though I'm having the exact same thoughts he is.

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

I can understand disliking Anders for a number of reasons, one of which being the fact that he is now TERRIBLE at arguing his case, or that he ultimately resorts to violence, or because he lies to you, or whatever. But he doesn't show contempt for all non-mages, only the ones who are anti-mage bigots, or people who support the current terrible system.

And what about the positive effects of the system? And what happens after you destroy the system? And what about people who are simply stuck in the system, with no power to change it?

Anders is not taking a principled stand. Anders is out of control. He's not proposing anything better. He doesn't have some noble solution. His only thought is to bring down the Templars.

He's vengeance, not righteousness.

Modifié par devSin, 21 août 2011 - 06:17 .

[FieryDove]

devSin wrote...

Anders is not taking a principled stand. Anders is out of control. He's not proposing anything better. He doesn't have some noble solution. His only thought is to bring down the Templars.

He's vengeance, not righteousness.

After so much time and nothing else showing a change what would anybody do? Frankly most of my Hawke's would pack bags and move.

Elthina is as innocent as Evet is. (same with Sebastian) Anyone who talks to NPC's, do quests major and minor and listens can see what horrible things the templars get away with.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

devSin wrote...

I adore the way Fenris responds to Merrill and Anders. He's more brutal than anything I can do in dialogue, even though I'm having the exact same thoughts he is.

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

I can understand disliking Anders for a number of reasons, one of which being the fact that he is now TERRIBLE at arguing his case, or that he ultimately resorts to violence, or because he lies to you, or whatever. But he doesn't show contempt for all non-mages, only the ones who are anti-mage bigots, or people who support the current terrible system.

And what about the positive effects of the system? And what happens after you destroy the system? And what about people who are simply stuck in the system, with no power to change it?

Anders is not taking a principled stand. Anders is out of control. He's not proposing anything better. He doesn't have some noble solution. His only thought is to bring down the Templars.

He's vengeance, not righteousness.

You obviously don't actually listen to all the variations on dialogue. I do.

Early on, he's definitely proposing a better system: at one point he has dialogue where he talks about wanting a world where mages can study in the circle by day and then return home to their families at night. That sounds like a pretty simple and logical solution to me: allow mages to come and go, have them police their own, allow them contact with their families, still have a circle to educate and protect them if they want to be there, but allow them to leave after they are trained if they want to, to get married and have kids like normal people. Is it an ideal solution that solves all problems? No. But it's something to work towards. It's a basis on which to build. If the world was moving noticeably toward something that resembles that solution (personally, I'd keep a bunch of Alistair-style lay templars around to watch over the mages, but have them not be Chantry controlled), I'm pretty sure Anders would accept that progress and not go crazy. It's the fact that things are bad and getting worse that makes him discard his reasonable views and decide that more drastic action is necessary.

This relates back to things he says in Awakening, where his main complaint is that, as a mage, there's nothing you can do to prove yourself. Even someone as trusted as Wynne can't know who her kid is or live outside the circle... you basically cooperate, hoping that you gain enough approval to be allowed to venture out occasionally, and there's no guarantee of that. A system whereby children are allowed to see their families and where adults can earn trust enough to leave the circle would have completely answered his complaints in Awakenings.

It's only after three years of trying more moderate solutions (trying to free Karl, trying to run the underground railroad, trying to convince Hawke and co) and seeing no good come of it at all that he starts to become angrier. Personally, I think it's Elthina's apathy when she hears what Alric was doing that throws him over the edge

People don't seem to internalize the time progression, and that's fine... you don't get much evidence of it. But Anders starts as a reasonable man with sensible solutions, tries to present them to the world, and continuously has them fail or be thrown back in his face. After a while, he realizes that reasonable arguments and manifestos aren't working because nobody listens to them, and the templars are never just going to decide to lighten up and treat mages better.

[Arquen]

Its true... anders' story is all about a dissent. He is trying to be legitimate, but in the end there is no change. "Took away the chance of compromise because there is no compromise." His nature is conflicted because of Justice, but whether Justice is a demon or not is controversial.

You can hate Anders for being a hypocrit, lying, but he isn't raging on the companions because he is sane. Especially on rival. The point is whether you can see what he was trying to do and can rally behind "necessary evil" or just pass him off as "crazy terrorist" who was just short sighted and selfish. Either way there was indeed more to it than simple vengeance and demons.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

I honestly think the game would be much more interesting if we were shown that the chantry had a legitimate chance of changing peacefully, and Anders still went through with his extreme measures.

But then I look at all the people who think that Anders is unreasonably extreme even with the Chantry showing absolutely no evidence of ever compromising or doing anything to improve mages' quality of life ever in any conceivably rational future, and I realize that that kind of subtle moral conflict is probably not best conveyed in the medium of vidya games. Yet, anyway.

[Xilizhra]

But then I look at all the people who think that Anders is unreasonably extreme even with the Chantry showing absolutely no evidence of ever compromising or doing anything to improve mages' quality of life ever in any conceivably rational future, and I realize that that kind of subtle moral conflict is probably not best conveyed in the medium of vidya games. Yet, anyway.

Well said. Though considering how many people side with the templars, I'm uncertain if it was even a good idea to show as much subtlety in moral conflict as they did.

[Arquen]

So many people side with Templars? Really... I thought more sided with mages. I've sided with both,but you have to see that neither is the "right" choice just degrees of control and fanaticism.

Either way you toast Meredith... imho she was the problem in Kirkwall and served as the catalyst for Anders wheras Alric was the trigger inevitably. Elthina's uninvolvement and failure to do her job was also a catalyst. I just don't see how you can say one side is in the right and the other is completely wrong. Each side is wrong in some way.

[Xilizhra]

but you have to see that neither is the "right" choice

I don't.

Either way you toast Meredith... imho she was the problem in Kirkwall and served as the catalyst for Anders wheras Alric was the trigger inevitably. Elthina's uninvolvement and failure to do her job was also a catalyst. I just don't see how you can say one side is in the right and the other is completely wrong. Each side is wrong in some way.

The Circle didn't consist of shining angels, it's true. That's about all I can say in their disfavor.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Honestly, I'd prefer a conflict where I legitimately understand both sides. I'm being a bit cranky tonight, for which I apologize, but I wish they'd erred on the side of "more sympathetic templars" rather than going with "crazier mages." I mean, the point wasn't to just tell the story of an underprivileged group gaining acceptance, it was to show a legitimate moral quandary, I get that. It's just that they did that by creating a threat so dire-seeming that people would agree that following the orders of an authoritarian regime in order to preserve personal safety by revoking the human rights of of a minority was a good idea. Which history pretty much tells us is never a good idea. I'd prefer that games not... make people I usually think of as sane openly endorse authoritarianism. It makes me twitch.

I would much prefer to explore a more moderate version of this question, where the threat was less dire and the regime less compassionlessly authoritarian. I'd actually enjoy a version of this question where the templars were relatively compassionate and well-regulated, but there were fewer blood mages. Or a version where there was a visible progressive movement within the templars that I could openly support, while also supporting continued templar presence. Or something that isn't blatantly approving of authoritarianism.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 21 août 2011 - 08:49 .

[Xilizhra]

Well, it seems as though plenty of people agree with authoritarianism as long as it can be somehow justified by a greater threat. Theoretically justified, at any rate.

Moderate templars would have been nice, but I've seen, like, two throughout the entire series. Three if we count Cullen before he went cuckoo.

[GodWood]

Bethany - Uninteresting character with absolutely no depth.
Anders - Whiny mage supremist
Merrill - Just, no.


Everyone else I liked.

[Arquen]

I was indifferent to Bethany. While I liked her because she was charming and sweet I just didn't find her that fascinating.

Her character development as a Warden is interesting though. She becomes very hardened and bottles up her feelings. She seems callous and unfeeling. A direct contrast to her sunny and cheerful disposition before.

Her in the circle is kind of meh. Though she poses interesting ideas because apparently to her the circle isn't that bad. Still, her disposition in the circle doesn't really change and so she seems static and uninteresting.

I much prefer Carver. He is like everything a little brother should be... melodramatic at times, attention seeking through sarcastic remarks and banters. Not to mention the whole "living in your shadow" complex. I love him! I almost hate playing non-mage because I like bringing him places.

[Xilizhra]

I find Carver annoying, but I suppose that's what he's supposed to be, so I guess it works. I'm still unsure whether to canonically make him a templar or a Warden; it's the difference between what my Hawke would do vs. what's ultimately best for Carver.

[Neminea]

People that call Anders whiny should watch more My Little Pony. Rarity can explain the difference between whining and complaining like no one else can.

[berelinde]

Neminea wrote...

People that call Anders whiny should watch more My Little Pony. Rarity can explain the difference between whining and complaining like no one else can.

No comment about My Little Pony. I just wanted to point out that people tend to describe any character they don't like as whiny. It's just one of those things, like how the taste of any herb you don't like is always "soapy." It makes sense, really. Character is going on about something you don't want to listen to. And as anyone who has ever been trapped in a restaurant with cranky toddlers can tell you, whining is the most annoying sound known to man.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

I was once at a fairly highfalutin' writers' workshop, talking character development with some authors.. At one point it was brought up that if you wanted to instantly engender a negative attitude towards a character in text, you only have to add "he whined" to a few of his lines early on, and people will find themselves irrationally disliking that character pretty much no matter what else they do.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 21 août 2011 - 06:06 .

[aeon_flux1985]

sylvanaerie wrote...

On the opposite spectrum of this is the complete apathy Sebastian inspires with me. Sebastian is consistently blah regardless of which path you choose. Which is a pity. His intro video was so badass I got my hopes up wanting a bad boy archer like Nate. Instead I got someone worse than Leliana. .

Sebastian actually does have some good banter with the other characters, who are making fun of him.  There's a memorable one with Anders mocking his armor and a couple with Isabela, I think, that were very LOL-worthy.  But, other than that, I totally agree.  He just doesn't seem to have as many lines or interactions as the other characters, which makes bringing him along kind of tedious (since he rarely contributes in any meaningful way).

The Anders hate on this thread is totally, totally understandable.  I agree with it 100%.  But I kind of love him.  Yeah, yeah, what he did was inexcusable, but whatever.  His voice is hot, hot, hot, and I'm super shallow.  So. 

Anyway, I generally like all of the characters, with the tiny, recent exception of Aveline.  I'm going through a playthrough right now, and I'd never taken her into the Fade with my mage!Hawke, during the "Night Terrors" quest.  Not only does she betray Hawke and nearly make him/her Tranquil, when you do the follow-up quest with her...she blames HAWKE for her problems, saying that all mages should be locked up forever.  You have the choice of selecting the "Even me?" dialogue line, to which she replies, kind of, "yeah."  That's the end of the conversation, and she never brings it up again.  The next convo with her was asking my mage for help with Donnic, like she hadn't just, 5 minutes before, ripped my Hawke's heart out and crushed it under her bootheel.  Ugh.  Kind of soured my love for her, tbqh. 

[Carmen_Willow]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

rak72 wrote...

The trouble is, the witers threw out all sense of moderation in this game and didn't give us much else to see about the characters.  They took that one aspect of the person's character and just kept pounding us with it.

This. In Origins, the companions were more 3 dimensional. They had a major aspect to their character and personality, yet they had alot of other parts of their personas that were extended upon and explored, as judging by their companion banters vs. convos you have with them directly. And sometimes, they carried surprises of their own.

So this!