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[IanPolaris]

Wulfram wrote...

Hardened Leliana is still both pious and grateful to the chantry. When someone she knows and has regard for becomes Divine, why wouldn't she agree to put her skills to work for them?

I have no issue with the fact that a hardened Lelianna is working for her friend the Divine.  The issue I have is with the extreme change of personality esp when it comes to magic as documented by the other posters (esp Rif).

-Polaris

[TheJediSaint]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Agreed. The entire Mage-Templar plot was loosely tied together over the three acts when there was more than enough to tie it together completely. Having Meredith fall back on the idol was not necessary when her own zeal would've sufficed.

Zeal alone does not grant the ablity to animate bronze statues, nor does it allow you to jump fifty feet into the air.

[TEWR]

TheJediSaint wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Agreed. The entire Mage-Templar plot was loosely tied together over the three acts when there was more than enough to tie it together completely. Having Meredith fall back on the idol was not necessary when her own zeal would've sufficed.

Zeal alone does not grant the ablity to animate bronze statues, nor does it allow you to jump fifty feet into the air.

I do admit, making makeshift golems was a nice touch for the battle.

but in terms of character, the red lyrium ruined Meredith. Actually, they could've had her order her Templars to begin the Annulment while she went to get something from her office (her sword). Then when Hawke comes out, she goes crazy.

It keeps the zeal that would've worked well and still allows for the red lyrium to dominate her entire person.

[TEWR]

yes it could've, but as soon as you find out that it was the idol that made her call for the Annulment, character development goes out the window.

Personally if the idol had to be used for her, I would've preferred getting to know her in Act 1, and slowly see her become more fanatical and zealous in Act 2, and by Act 3 she's completely insane.

I could write a long post about what I would've done, but it serves no purpose, so I'll stop at this brief summary.

[TheJediSaint]

Or maybe, you know, she called the Right of Annulment because Anders blew up that Chantry.

[RagingCyclone]

Meredith was trying to get the RoA early in Act 3. Go to the gallows and listen to the templars banter. Even Cullen mentions it. Since Elthina turns her down she tries to bypass and go directly to the Divine.

[TEWR]

Filament wrote...

You never find out the idol "made her" call for Annulment. Another interpretation is that it was simply her zeal and paranoia amplified by the idol.

The idol amplifying traits theory has one problem: Bartrand. What trait of his was amplified by the idol?

[Herr Uhl]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Filament wrote...

You never find out the idol "made her" call for Annulment. Another interpretation is that it was simply her zeal and paranoia amplified by the idol.

The idol amplifying traits theory has one problem: Bartrand. What trait of his was amplified by the idol?

Paranoia?

[RagingCyclone]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Filament wrote...

You never find out the idol "made her" call for Annulment. Another interpretation is that it was simply her zeal and paranoia amplified by the idol.

The idol amplifying traits theory has one problem: Bartrand. What trait of his was amplified by the idol?

greed

[TEWR]

RagingCyclone wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Filament wrote...

You never find out the idol "made her" call for Annulment. Another interpretation is that it was simply her zeal and paranoia amplified by the idol.

The idol amplifying traits theory has one problem: Bartrand. What trait of his was amplified by the idol?

greed

That's what I thought too, but nothing indicates that it amplified his greed. He fed lyrium to his servants and his servant never said it made him do anything greedy.

As for the Primeval Thaig scenario, it's tough to say whether the idol immediately made him do that through amplification or whether it was his own doing.

Though.... IIRC it did glow when Bartrand grabbed it.

[RagingCyclone]

Depends on what you take his greed to be about. Making his servants do those things is a measure of power over them...that is greed. His need to get the idol back...that is greed. Greed takes many forms.

[Xilizhra]

All the mutilations and suchlike Bartrand performed took place after he lost the idol and was no longer hearing its song. His mind was just plain broken by that point.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Was Lelianna anti-mage? Huh, I guess the paranoid really do see enemies everywhere...

[Nerdage]

My original interpretation was that she'd suddenly ('suddenly' as in half a dozen years..) become anti-mage (her apparently cutting ties to my warden mage didn't help but turns out that was a bug), but really she doesn't say anything of her opinion on mages in general. A bit more sympathy for the non-libertarian mages would've been nice but there was no in-game reason for her to add anything.

Mainly I just don't think that if they specifically wanted an anti-mage character to fill the role as seeker they would've gone to the pain of bringing Leliana back, she didn't really fit the role in the first place and she came with some pretty awkward baggage (possible deadness). Now I'm more anxious to see exactly why she was brought back. I hope it's good, I'd think it must be to make it worth having her there at all.

Modifié par nerdage, 14 août 2011 - 10:19 .

[David Gaider]

IanPolaris wrote...
DG, you are suggesting that Lelianna is not anti-mage now? After the quotes and reasoning that Rif ande Lob have provided? After the clear "shift" in personality after DAO? I don't wish to be too insulting but this is sort of like the best friend caught in bed with the wife who says, "Who are you going to believe, me or your lying eyes?"

I'm not saying Leliana is anything. You guys are. It's like you had a whole other conversation with her that wasn't even in the game, an "extreme shift in personality" that she didn't even display... despite simultaneously saying you wished she had. Her motivations have somehow been discerned, her actions outside of the plot divined, and comparisons between these things and her character in DAO made and found wanting.

This kind of self-referencing speculation is headache-inducing. What enjoyment you get out of it, I'll never know. I'll leave you to it, however, and trust that when the answers finally do come you'll find it just as aggravating.

Modifié par David Gaider, 14 août 2011 - 10:24 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

IanPolaris wrote...

DG, you are suggesting that Lelianna is not anti-mage now? After the quotes and reasoning that Rif ande Lob have provided? After the clear "shift" in personality after DAO? I don't wish to be too insulting but this is sort of like the best friend caught in bed with the wife who says, "Who are you going to believe, me or your lying eyes?"

-Polaris

I think it's that he has a very different interpretation of what consitutes being "anti-mage." I can't say I disagree with him either.

The fact that Meredith is part of the root of the problem doesn't make the Resolutionists (or any other violent sepratists) less dangerous, especially since they attacked her just for showing up, which shows they have aims higher than just the Circle in Kirkwall.

I still haven't been able to find footage of Hawke selecting the lower conversations about a Holy War option or of Leliana talking about an Exalted March, but Considering Sebastian says that she didn't say what the Divine's response to the troubles would be, I also didn't think the prospect of an Exalted March on Kirkwall was to punish what mages are left because of the Resolutionists actions, but to respond if Krikwall succumbs to maleificarum or "falls to magic."

  It didn't sound to me that her telling Hawke to get Elthina out of Kirkwall was because the Chantry was about to raze it to the ground but because mage rebels would continue to be a danger.

I don't think her saying the Chantry "tolerated" sepratists indicates she's anti-mage either. What else could they have done that would be better? Mages being independent of the Chantry is a dangerous prospect, or at least she believes it is dangerous. I also don't think that supporting the Chantry or believing that their Circles (when they function properly) are a safer solution than total mage independence is inhernetly anti-mage.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 14 août 2011 - 10:52 .

[Rifneno]

David Gaider wrote...

I'm not saying Leliana is anything. You guys are. It's like you had a whole other conversation with her that wasn't even in the game, an "extreme shift in personality" that she didn't even display... despite simultaneously saying you wished she had. Her motivations have somehow been discerned, her actions outside of the plot divined, and comparisons between these things and her character in DAO made and found wanting.

This kind of self-referencing speculation is headache-inducing. What enjoyment you get out of it, I'll never know. I'll leave you to it, however, and trust that when the answers finally do come you'll find it just as aggravating.

If it was one or two people, the fault would probably lie with them. But too many people took her that way for it just to be our rampant speculation (which I grant you, we are a touch psychotic about). Whether you meant for her to come across the way she did, she did. Perhaps saying she's anti-mage isn't the right word. As you say, the conversation is a short one. But she was definitely much... colder, I guess you would say.

[whykikyouwhy]

Rifneno wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

I'm not saying Leliana is anything. You guys are. It's like you had a whole other conversation with her that wasn't even in the game, an "extreme shift in personality" that she didn't even display... despite simultaneously saying you wished she had. Her motivations have somehow been discerned, her actions outside of the plot divined, and comparisons between these things and her character in DAO made and found wanting.

This kind of self-referencing speculation is headache-inducing. What enjoyment you get out of it, I'll never know. I'll leave you to it, however, and trust that when the answers finally do come you'll find it just as aggravating.

If it was one or two people, the fault would probably lie with them. But too many people took her that way for it just to be our rampant speculation (which I grant you, we are a touch psychotic about). Whether you meant for her to come across the way she did, she did. Perhaps saying she's anti-mage isn't the right word. As you say, the conversation is a short one. But she was definitely much... colder, I guess you would say.

For that bolded bit - couldn't you argue that she may have been "colder" because she didn't know anyone in the party? Depending on your import, she may know Hawke, but probably indirectly. It's Bethany who makes a comment. She may technically recognize Aveline because she supposedly tormented her, but in a serious moment such as her cameo, why would she bring that up? ("Oh hai - I used to pull your red pigtails.") She knows Isabela (again, depending on the import) and there could be a lovely awkward moment for that.

But, for the most part, the party that meets with Leliana is made up of strangers. She's there to do a job - to meet with these people, to give them a message from the Divine, to get her point across and then to leave. It's not exactly tea, crumpets and jovial songs time. It would be difficult for her warmth to fully emerge under those circumstances.

IMO, of course.

[phaonica]

Can one be pro-Chantry without being anti-mage?

I had no problem with the Chantry in DAO. I thought they did a lot of good for the people and while there were a few problem templars, on the whole they seemed good people... So tell me, what are we supposed to think of the Chantry now? We're supposed to believe they're not rotten to the core? Virtually everything done by the Chantry in DA2 is, to put it politely, unfavorable.

Knowing that the Chantry in Ferelden is mostly of decent folk, how is it fair to judge the entire Chantry based on the indecent actions of one group of Templars in Kirkwall? It's no better to judge the Chantry based on one group of Templars than it is to judge all mages based on the actions of arguably a few blood mages.

Modifié par phaonica, 14 août 2011 - 10:51 .

[Sylvianus]

phaonica wrote...

Can one be pro-Chantry without being anti-mage?

Well you know, that's not surprised on this hyperbolic forum. You're even labeled as" pro-Templar "  if you decided to support the Templars,( sometimes, as a murderer anti-mage who supports a genocide ) knowing that you had no choice and other reasonable considerations could have decided to choose a camp with a neutral thought.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 14 août 2011 - 11:05 .

[TEWR]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

I'm not saying Leliana is anything. You guys are. It's like you had a whole other conversation with her that wasn't even in the game, an "extreme shift in personality" that she didn't even display... despite simultaneously saying you wished she had. Her motivations have somehow been discerned, her actions outside of the plot divined, and comparisons between these things and her character in DAO made and found wanting.

This kind of self-referencing speculation is headache-inducing. What enjoyment you get out of it, I'll never know. I'll leave you to it, however, and trust that when the answers finally do come you'll find it just as aggravating.

If it was one or two people, the fault would probably lie with them. But too many people took her that way for it just to be our rampant speculation (which I grant you, we are a touch psychotic about). Whether you meant for her to come across the way she did, she did. Perhaps saying she's anti-mage isn't the right word. As you say, the conversation is a short one. But she was definitely much... colder, I guess you would say.

For that bolded bit - couldn't you argue that she may have been "colder" because she didn't know anyone in the party? Depending on your import, she may know Hawke, but probably indirectly. It's Bethany who makes a comment. She may technically recognize Aveline because she supposedly tormented her, but in a serious moment such as her cameo, why would she bring that up? ("Oh hai - I used to pull your red pigtails.") She knows Isabela (again, depending on the import) and there could be a lovely awkward moment for that.

But, for the most part, the party that meets with Leliana is made up of strangers. She's there to do a job - to meet with these people, to give them a message from the Divine, to get her point across and then to leave. It's not exactly tea, crumpets and jovial songs time. It would be difficult for her warmth to fully emerge under those circumstances.

IMO, of course.

Thing is, she was sent to investigate and meet with Elthina. Elthina sent an envoy (about the only thing Elthina did that didn't have neutrality stapled to it) and Leliana doesn't even take the time to discuss the real situation with Hawke?



To quote myself from page 7:

I'd feel better if Hawke was able to tell her about Kirkwall's growing problems. Even if she already knows, Hawke doesn't know that she knows. So even if she knows, which we the player don't know, it helps to know that Hawke knows he needs to tell her what she possibly already knows. That way, he'll feel safe in knowing that she now knows what he knows, y'know?

Yes, I did that on purpose.

Hawke was sent as an envoy to meet with her, and all he does is stand there and listen to Leliana talk about "Resolutionists bad. If Kirkwall falls to magic, that's very bad. Magic is bad and mages are always insane" (obvious paraphrase with some stuff thrown in).

And to be honest, much of the game came off with that feeling. Decimus, Grace, Orsino. The only two that didn't come off like that were Quentin and Tarohne, because I thought they were portrayed well (minor grievances with the Quentin story arc aside).

But Grace, Decimus, and Orsino were given the worst portrayal. Even Orsino's ending was unwarranted. There were other ways the Harvester ritual boss fight could've been used for pro-mage people that didn't result in Orsino going all Harvestino.

Though.... that's another issue for another day. It's one of the biggest things I hated about DAII, I'll say that much.

It wouldn't have even been so bad if Leliana had explicitly stated that if Kirkwall falls to "the extreme Resolutionists' magic (which I'm now assuming was the intent of her dialogue there), then no one will be safe."


So it's not only an issue with how Leliana said what she said, but how Hawke reacts to what she said.

Ignore the Grace, Decimus, and Orsino bit. Focus on the bolded.

[Nerdage]

phaonica wrote...

Can one be pro-Chantry without being anti-mage?

Depends how you define 'anti mage'. Is the circle itself anti mage? Is the only way to be pro mage to be libertarian?

Only pro mage-freedom andrastian I can think of off the top of my head is circle mage Bethany (going off the final conversation, can't remember the warden one very well), but there may be a difference between pro chantry and andrastian; I'd always considered Leliana the latter, so I don't know why she couldn't be for mage freedom, but I don't know. I guess we'll see how it works out.