968 réponses à ce sujet

[phaonica]

TheJediSaint wrote...


I always interpeted the "fall to magic" line as a reference to the Tevinter imperium.  In the living memory of Thedas, Tevinter is the only example of a society run by mages.  In the past, Tevinter mages sacrificed thousands of slaves to fuel blood magic, and were probably responsible for the creation of the darkspawn due to their pursuit of power.  In the current Imperium, you have magisters freely using blood magic to gain advantage over rivals.  They also conduct magical experiments of questionable ethics on slaves, one such experiment resulting in Fenris.  So when Lelianna says Kirkwall must not fall to magic, my guess she means she does not want what happend in Tevinter to happen there.

But to imply that mage freedom could lead to an Imperium situation is almost what defines the anti-mage stance.

However, I don't remember Leliana saying the words "Tevinter" or "Imperium" in any of my playthroughs.

[IanPolaris]

rapunzel696 wrote...

I really interpreted it her being pro-Chantry. She's an agent of the Divine and thus loyal towards her employer. And why would she tell Hawke everything she might think or know? She's talking to Hawke in her function as right hand of the Divine and presenting her views.
( I'm "pro - mage" and really like Leliana).

She is also supposed to be receiving Hawke as a messenger of the Grand Cleric who is the Divine's immediate subordinate and thus important in her own right.  A Divine that doesn't listen to her Grand Clerics isn't a Divine very long.....

-Polaris

[Morroian]

Urazz wrote...

Personally, I think Leliana probably investigated things a bit before 'leaking' her arrival and read up on past reports sent to the Divine.  I think part of the reason Leliana was 'against' the mages in DA2 was because their actions were going to cause chaos for all of Thedas and get alot of people killed.  Not only that but she's probably changed a bit after 7 years from the events of DAO.

I don't think Leliana is actually Antimage but when they start endangering lives and causing chaos with their actions, I think she'll go against them.  I think she's more of a promage supporter that would rather change things peacefully over time.

This. 

[IanPolaris]

Morroian wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Doesn't that conversation have her apologizing a lot and not being a person to subscribe to an anti-elf view? It's been a while since I've played an elf, but the difference is that she cleared it up at that time. She fails to clear up her comments to Hawke.

What was there to clear up? Whether she's personally pro or anti magic is irrelevant in that discussion. To anyone else not named IanPolaris her terminology was ambiguous enough to not be able to draw a conclusion about her attitudes changing.

Actually it was clear her attitude had become intensely anti-mage to a lot of us long before I joined this discussion.

-Polaris

[phaonica]

double post, oops

Modifié par phaonica, 15 août 2011 - 12:48 .

[Rifneno]

IanPolaris wrote...

Morroian wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Doesn't that conversation have her apologizing a lot and not being a person to subscribe to an anti-elf view? It's been a while since I've played an elf, but the difference is that she cleared it up at that time. She fails to clear up her comments to Hawke.

What was there to clear up? Whether she's personally pro or anti magic is irrelevant in that discussion. To anyone else not named IanPolaris her terminology was ambiguous enough to not be able to draw a conclusion about her attitudes changing.

Actually it was clear her attitude had become intensely anti-mage to a lot of us long before I joined this discussion.

-Polaris

Clearly it's because we're all conspiracy theorists who think the moon landing was faked.  It can't be because writers are fallible.

[Sylvianus]

Morroian wrote...

Urazz wrote...

Personally, I think Leliana probably investigated things a bit before 'leaking' her arrival and read up on past reports sent to the Divine.  I think part of the reason Leliana was 'against' the mages in DA2 was because their actions were going to cause chaos for all of Thedas and get alot of people killed.  Not only that but she's probably changed a bit after 7 years from the events of DAO.

I don't think Leliana is actually Antimage but when they start endangering lives and causing chaos with their actions, I think she'll go against them.  I think she's more of a promage supporter that would rather change things peacefully over time.

This. 

This is exactly my though too.

[Rifneno]

Sylvianus wrote...

Morroian wrote...

Urazz wrote...

Personally, I think Leliana probably investigated things a bit before 'leaking' her arrival and read up on past reports sent to the Divine.  I think part of the reason Leliana was 'against' the mages in DA2 was because their actions were going to cause chaos for all of Thedas and get alot of people killed.  Not only that but she's probably changed a bit after 7 years from the events of DAO.

I don't think Leliana is actually Antimage but when they start endangering lives and causing chaos with their actions, I think she'll go against them.  I think she's more of a promage supporter that would rather change things peacefully over time.

This. 

This is exactly my though too.

Sure you don't want to just say she's guiltless because she's an old character?

[IanPolaris]

Filament wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

We haven't "portrayed" her as anti-mage.

Don't try to shift the goalposts and say she might still be anti-mage in ways they didn't portray. Your contention is that what they portrayed in DA2 shows she is anti-mage.

BZZZT.  Wrong.  This quote merely says that they (apparently) didn't intend for us to perceive Lelianna as anti-mage.  IT doesn't mean she isn't.  DG never once said I was wrong about Lelianna being anti-mage.  He said she had reasons that were currently classified "double-special top secret".

-Polaris

[Xilizhra]

This has nothing to do with the thread, but that might be a good thing: Rifneno, your opinion on Merrill makes me sad. ;_;

[Dave of Canada]

IanPolaris wrote...

BZZZT.  Wrong.  This quote merely says that they (apparently) didn't intend for us to perceive Lelianna as anti-mage.  IT doesn't mean she isn't.

-Polaris

So you're trying to say she wasn't anti-mage in DA:O until she shows up in DA2, Gaider says she wasn't portrayed as anti-mage as you're all saying and that means... it doesn't mean she isn't anti-mage?

Then you wonder why people don't take you seriously.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 15 août 2011 - 12:57 .

[Sylvianus]

Rifneno wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

Morroian wrote...

Urazz wrote...

Personally, I think Leliana probably investigated things a bit before 'leaking' her arrival and read up on past reports sent to the Divine.  I think part of the reason Leliana was 'against' the mages in DA2 was because their actions were going to cause chaos for all of Thedas and get alot of people killed.  Not only that but she's probably changed a bit after 7 years from the events of DAO.

I don't think Leliana is actually Antimage but when they start endangering lives and causing chaos with their actions, I think she'll go against them.  I think she's more of a promage supporter that would rather change things peacefully over time.

This. 

This is exactly my though too.

Sure you don't want to just say she's guiltless because she's an old character?

I don't know. :(I hope she  hasn't  like you the memory of a fish, and it does't feel sickly complex to see the devil everywhere. 

[IanPolaris]

Dave of Canada wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

BZZZT.  Wrong.  This quote merely says that they (apparently) didn't intend for us to perceive Lelianna as anti-mage.  IT doesn't mean she isn't.

-Polaris

So you're trying to say she wasn't anti-mage in DA:O until she shows up in DA2, Gaider says she wasn't portrayed as anti-mage as you're all saying and that means... it doesn't mean she isn't anti-mage?

Then you wonder why people don't take you seriously.

Hah.  If you didn't take me seriously then you wouldn't bother responding (nor would DG for that matter).  Fact is you do (agree or not). 

I said I found it very interesting that while DG did say they didn't intend to protrary "Sister Nightengale" as antimage, he never once said that she wasn't.  He alluded to reasons under double-top-secret probabation but that's a far cry from a denial...and that's a point I find very interesting.

-Polaris

[Rifneno]

Xilizhra wrote...

This has nothing to do with the thread, but that might be a good thing: Rifneno, your opinion on Merrill makes me sad. ;_;

Which part?

[TEWR]

Rifneno wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

This has nothing to do with the thread, but that might be a good thing: Rifneno, your opinion on Merrill makes me sad. ;_;

Which part?

I must know what Rifneno's opinions on Merrill are, for if they are not what I hope they are....

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 15 août 2011 - 01:04 .

[Xilizhra]

Rifneno wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

This has nothing to do with the thread, but that might be a good thing: Rifneno, your opinion on Merrill makes me sad. ;_;

Which part?

Everything that I remember, which is largely about her being stupid/crazy.

[IanPolaris]

Filament wrote...
I said not to shift the goalposts. You must not know what that means, so let me explain-- it's when you originally start with one assertion-- "the way they portrayed Leliana in DA2 shows she is anti-mage" -- and then when that assertion is proven wrong-- "we didn't portray her as anti-mage"-- you shift and claim your assertion was always something else-- "She still might be anti-mage, even though they didn't portray her as such!"

Actually I didn't.  DG did probably unintentionally but he did.

And his quote goes beyond not intending her to be perceived that way. It means they didn't write her to be that way. Don't try to obfuscate your way out of it.

No.  That's not what he said.  He said they didn't intend to have people take her that way (being anti-mage) apparently.  He then alluded to reasons of hers that were under double-top secret classification, but DG NEVER ONCE said that Lelianna was not anti-mage even though he's had ample opportunity here and elsewhere to do so.

-Polaris

Modifié par IanPolaris, 15 août 2011 - 01:07 .

[Erani]

So Leliana did some investigation and came to the conclusion that mages were going to be trouble?....How come she didn't come to the conclusion that Meredith and her Templars were pressuring the mages so much that obviously they were going to eventually snap...and like try to do something about it instead of asking Good Elthina to flee Kirkwall?...How about asking Elthina to remove Meredith from her position, stop the torture, the whippings, starvation, rapes, etc? Maybe that would have helped control the situation..

If the Divine was so interested in what was going on in Kirkwall, I cannot imagine she didn't know about what was going on in the Circle and the rumors of corruption, torture, molestation, etc...so why didn't she advice Elthina against allowing (or supporting) Meredith to act as viscount and take even more power with which she was obviously going to put more pressure on the mages? Because I just don't see Elthina supporting such an unusual thing as a Knight Commander Viscount without the approval from the Divine....even more so knowing that if she were to die (as she was prepared to do by remaining in Kirkwall) Meredith would then become acting Grand Cleric Viscount Knight Commander. Abuse of power anyone?

[Xilizhra]

My pet theory: Elthina knew that war was inevitable and doing anything active to stop it would just drag it out, so she stepped out of it to let things take their course.

And if Hawke doesn't help Anders with the Justice quest, Elthina lets him in.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 15 août 2011 - 01:09 .

[Rifneno]

Xilizhra wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

This has nothing to do with the thread, but that might be a good thing: Rifneno, your opinion on Merrill makes me sad. ;_;

Which part?

Everything that I remember, which is largely about her being stupid/crazy.

She's naive to the point that it could be called a plot hole that a demon didn't trick her into becoming an abomination so he could show her how to make a strawberry milkshake by age 7, but I don't blame her for Marethari or the rest of the Dalish.  That was their own idiocy.  I'm very suspicious that the eluvian she took that shard from might've lead right into the Black City, and so am very thankful she never successfully fixed it, but I don't blame her for that either since there's no way she could've known since Tamlen and the Dalish origin PC are the only ones who got that clue.

Blood magic = Not inherently evil, but very dangerous.
Demonology = Under no circumstances, always a stupid decision.

[IanPolaris]

Xilizhra wrote...

My pet theory: Elthina knew that war was inevitable and doing anything active to stop it would just drag it out, so she stepped out of it to let things take their course.

And if Hawke doesn't help Anders with the Justice quest, Elthina lets him in.

How's this:  Meredith got wind of Ander's plan and "arranged" to have her templars look the other way while Anders planted his bomb.  In fact Anders probably beat Meredith to the punch since Elthina was the only thing between Meredith and her dream of a Mage-free Kirkwall.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Filament wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Filament wrote...
I said not to shift the goalposts. You must not know what that means, so let me explain-- it's when you originally start with one assertion-- "the way they portrayed Leliana in DA2 shows she is anti-mage" -- and then when that assertion is proven wrong-- "we didn't portray her as anti-mage"-- you shift and claim your assertion was always something else-- "She still might be anti-mage, even though they didn't portray her as such!"

Actually I didn't.  DG did probably unintentionally but he did.

Actually you did.

but DG NEVER ONCE said that Lelianna was not anti-mage

There, you did it again.

Show me a single quote where DG specifically says that Lelianna is NOT anti-mage.  He's had plenty of opportunity to say that she's not.  He hasn't and I find that interesting.  He's only denied that they intended to protray her as such and that is NOT the same thing.

No shifting required.  It was DG that alluded to Lel's motives beyond her protrayal not me.

-Polaris