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[Xilizhra]

Rifneno wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

This has nothing to do with the thread, but that might be a good thing: Rifneno, your opinion on Merrill makes me sad. ;_;

Which part?

Everything that I remember, which is largely about her being stupid/crazy.

She's naive to the point that it could be called a plot hole that a demon didn't trick her into becoming an abomination so he could show her how to make a strawberry milkshake by age 7, but I don't blame her for Marethari or the rest of the Dalish.  That was their own idiocy.  I'm very suspicious that the eluvian she took that shard from might've lead right into the Black City, and so am very thankful she never successfully fixed it, but I don't blame her for that either since there's no way she could've known since Tamlen and the Dalish origin PC are the only ones who got that clue.

Blood magic = Not inherently evil, but very dangerous.
Demonology = Under no circumstances, always a stupid decision.

I disagree on the demonology part. The Warden can extort the knowledge of blood magic from Connor's desire demon for free, Hawke can deal with the hunger demon and then bully her way past. The point is to never trust them or treat them as friends, and I think that Merrill did reasonably well on that point.

In any case, I think the Eluvian was a red herring and Audacity's real target all along was Marethari, whom he was likely covertly influencing to turn the clan against Merrill.

[phaonica]

IanPolaris wrote...

DG NEVER ONCE said that Lelianna was not anti-mage even though he's had ample opportunity here and elsewhere to do so.

-Polaris

What's your point? DG has never said definitevly that Leliana IS anti-mage, either.

[Sylvianus]

IanPolaris wrote...

Filament wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Filament wrote...
I said not to shift the goalposts. You must not know what that means, so let me explain-- it's when you originally start with one assertion-- "the way they portrayed Leliana in DA2 shows she is anti-mage" -- and then when that assertion is proven wrong-- "we didn't portray her as anti-mage"-- you shift and claim your assertion was always something else-- "She still might be anti-mage, even though they didn't portray her as such!"

Actually I didn't.  DG did probably unintentionally but he did.

Actually you did.

but DG NEVER ONCE said that Lelianna was not anti-mage

There, you did it again.

Show me a single quote where DG specifically says that Lelianna is NOT anti-mage.  He's had plenty of opportunity to say that she's not.  He hasn't and I find that interesting.  He's only denied that they intended to protray her as such and that is NOT the same thing.

No shifting required.  It was DG that alluded to Lel's motives beyond her protrayal not me.

-Polaris

Maybe because the answer isn't simple, and it's better to wait and see ? Maybe the truth isn't in absolute terms, so the word " portrayed " ?

[IanPolaris]

Xilizhra wrote...

I disagree on the demonology part. The Warden can extort the knowledge of blood magic from Connor's desire demon for free, Hawke can deal with the hunger demon and then bully her way past. The point is to never trust them or treat them as friends, and I think that Merrill did reasonably well on that point.

In any case, I think the Eluvian was a red herring and Audacity's real target all along was Marethari, whom he was likely covertly influencing to turn the clan against Merrill.

This is off-topic, but fwiw, I tend to agree with you on this.  I find Merrill to be reasonably strong willed, competant (very competant really) and even assertive within her area of expertise which most definately included dealing with demons (and never, never to trust them).  I also agree that you can come out ahead when dealing with demons if you are hard-headed, never trust them one iota, and treat them as unfriendly always.  I too think Audacity's real target was the Keeper, not Merrill (prob because Merethari was easier to dupe).

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

phaonica wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

DG NEVER ONCE said that Lelianna was not anti-mage even though he's had ample opportunity here and elsewhere to do so.

-Polaris

What's your point? DG has never said definitevly that Leliana IS anti-mage, either.

He could have.  That's my point.  DG could have settled this in less than five minutes and didn't and I am more than a little curious why.  It's not my new goalpost.  It's DG that opened up that kettle of fish.

-Polaris

[TJPags]

Gee, maybe DG just doesn't want to give away information that they planned to explore in future DLC in future installments of this continuing franchise?

He was asked why Leli is anti-mage. He said you don't have all the facts/information yet to determine if she is or isn't anti-mage.

Why does that somehow translate to tacit approval of the theory that she is anti-mage?

She might be - she might not be. You don't know yet, because BW hasn't given you all the info.

Is that really so hard to accept?

[TEWR]

Regarding Merrill, if the Eluvian does in fact lead to the Black City (something I doubt), Audacity still couldn't have used it to escape. Demons stay away from the Black City.

[Xilizhra]

IanPolaris wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I disagree on the demonology part. The Warden can extort the knowledge of blood magic from Connor's desire demon for free, Hawke can deal with the hunger demon and then bully her way past. The point is to never trust them or treat them as friends, and I think that Merrill did reasonably well on that point.

In any case, I think the Eluvian was a red herring and Audacity's real target all along was Marethari, whom he was likely covertly influencing to turn the clan against Merrill.

This is off-topic, but fwiw, I tend to agree with you on this.  I find Merrill to be reasonably strong willed, competant (very competant really) and even assertive within her area of expertise which most definately included dealing with demons (and never, never to trust them).  I also agree that you can come out ahead when dealing with demons if you are hard-headed, never trust them one iota, and treat them as unfriendly always.  I too think Audacity's real target was the Keeper, not Merrill (prob because Merethari was easier to dupe).

-Polaris

I think it's more because Marethari was more powerful, but she also seems less flexible.

[IanPolaris]

TJPags wrote...

Gee, maybe DG just doesn't want to give away information that they planned to explore in future DLC in future installments of this continuing franchise?

He was asked why Leli is anti-mage. He said you don't have all the facts/information yet to determine if she is or isn't anti-mage.

Why does that somehow translate to tacit approval of the theory that she is anti-mage?

She might be - she might not be. You don't know yet, because BW hasn't given you all the info.

Is that really so hard to accept?

Given DG's other quotes and given the he still won't aknowledge that her comment "Kirkwall must not fall to magic" is at the very least narrow minded and anti-magic with regard to mages (lumping them all with the imperium), then I am inclined to believe that the "new" Lelianna is indeed Anti-mage and DG doesn't want to admit this lest the fanbase become less satisfied than it already is.  This is conjecture on my part but it does seem to fit the facts.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Xilizhra wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I disagree on the demonology part. The Warden can extort the knowledge of blood magic from Connor's desire demon for free, Hawke can deal with the hunger demon and then bully her way past. The point is to never trust them or treat them as friends, and I think that Merrill did reasonably well on that point.

In any case, I think the Eluvian was a red herring and Audacity's real target all along was Marethari, whom he was likely covertly influencing to turn the clan against Merrill.

This is off-topic, but fwiw, I tend to agree with you on this.  I find Merrill to be reasonably strong willed, competant (very competant really) and even assertive within her area of expertise which most definately included dealing with demons (and never, never to trust them).  I also agree that you can come out ahead when dealing with demons if you are hard-headed, never trust them one iota, and treat them as unfriendly always.  I too think Audacity's real target was the Keeper, not Merrill (prob because Merethari was easier to dupe).

-Polaris

I think it's more because Marethari was more powerful, but she also seems less flexible.

This is possible as well.  It's not like the two possibilities are mutually adjoint

-Polaris

[phaonica]

IanPolaris wrote...

[He could have.  That's my point.  DG could have settled this in less than five minutes and didn't and I am more than a little curious why.  It's not my new goalpost.  It's DG that opened up that kettle of fish.

-Polaris

Maybe because it's going to be explained later. Maybe because it it's important for it to be a mystery to future PC characters. 

David Gaider wrote...
It would be difficult to answer your questions without first addressing the assumptions you're making-- and to do that, I'd need to go into more detail regarding what she was actually doing.

One interpretation of what I've bolded is that there is more to this story than we know, and that accusing Leliana of being anti mage is jumping to conclusions. Whether or not those conclusions will be proven correct or incorrect is not something that they are willing to tell us yet (if ever). We are not entitled to an explanation, neither are we entitled to being told that our jumped-to conclusion is justified or not. We can only suggest that for some of us having an explanation *eventually* would make the entire DA experience more fun.

[RosaAquafire]

IanPolaris wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Gee, maybe DG just doesn't want to give away information that they planned to explore in future DLC in future installments of this continuing franchise?

He was asked why Leli is anti-mage. He said you don't have all the facts/information yet to determine if she is or isn't anti-mage.

Why does that somehow translate to tacit approval of the theory that she is anti-mage?

She might be - she might not be. You don't know yet, because BW hasn't given you all the info.

Is that really so hard to accept?

Given DG's other quotes and given the he still won't aknowledge that her comment "Kirkwall must not fall to magic" is at the very least narrow minded and anti-magic with regard to mages (lumping them all with the imperium), then I am inclined to believe that the "new" Lelianna is indeed Anti-mage and DG doesn't want to admit this lest the fanbase become less satisfied than it already is.  This is conjecture on my part but it does seem to fit the facts.

-Polaris

I'm going to go way, way out on a crazy limb here and say that David's probably learned his lesson about trying to sit down and pick specific points to argue with you, and is choosing to make nebulous statements that can't be latched onto. States his writers' intent while avoiding getting into a big semantics filled strawman burning throwdown that goes absolutely nowhere.

Cause, like, that's considerably more logical to me than the massive conjectures you're drawing. In fact, you're sort of proving my point ...

[Rifneno]

Xilizhra wrote...

I disagree on the demonology part. The Warden can extort the knowledge of blood magic from Connor's desire demon for free, Hawke can deal with the hunger demon and then bully her way past. The point is to never trust them or treat them as friends, and I think that Merrill did reasonably well on that point.

In any case, I think the Eluvian was a red herring and Audacity's real target all along was Marethari, whom he was likely covertly influencing to turn the clan against Merrill.

PC's, yes. But aside from that, demonology tends to go bad. Even Avernus couldn't control them like he thought and he's accomplished more than any blood mage I've seen not holding a "magister" title. A few mages might pull it off, but for the GREAT majority they can't handle a demon. And how do you separate those that can from those that only think they can? Better not to risk it.

I agree about the Eluvian though. At least in that Audacity's real goal was to manipulate Marethari.

[IanPolaris]

phaonica wrote...

David Gaider wrote...
It would be difficult to answer your questions without first addressing the assumptions you're making-- and to do that, I'd need to go into more detail regarding what she was actually doing.

One interpretation of what I've bolded is that there is more to this story than we know, and that accusing Leliana of being anti mage is jumping to conclusions. Whether or not those conclusions will be proven correct or incorrect is not something that they are willing to tell us yet (if ever). We are not entitled to an explanation, neither are we entitled to being told that our jumped-to conclusion is justified or not. We can only suggest that for some of us having an explanation *eventually* would make the entire DA experience more fun.

DG is indeed no obligated to tell us if our interpretation of Lelianna as "anti-mage" is correct or not, but if he's not willing to spill the beans, then he's really not entitled to tell us that we're wrong either.  DG seems to me to be trying to have it both ways.  He's trying to tell a whole lot of us (it's not just me that's reading the new Lelianna as anti-mage and an unwelcome change from DAO by a long chalk) that we're "wrong" without actually having to say whether she is or isn't anti-mage.

That doesn't fly.  If DG isn't willing to clarify this, then with all due respect he should butt out.

-Polaris

[Morroian]

Rifneno wrote...

PC's, yes. But aside from that, demonology tends to go bad. Even Avernus couldn't control them like he thought

Avernus tried to control many demons. Merrill is only dealing with 1. 

[LobselVith8]

TheJediSaint wrote...

I always interpeted the "fall to magic" line as a reference to the Tevinter imperium.  In the living memory of Thedas, Tevinter is the only example of a society run by mages.  In the past, Tevinter mages sacrificed thousands of slaves to fuel blood magic, and were probably responsible for the creation of the darkspawn due to their pursuit of power.  In the current Imperium, you have magisters freely using blood magic to gain advantage over rivals.  They also conduct magical experiments of questionable ethics on slaves, one such experiment resulting in Fenris.  So when Lelianna says Kirkwall must not fall to magic, my guess she means she does not want what happend in Tevinter to happen there.

The Tevinter Imperium isn't only society run by mages in living memory. There was the kingdom of Arlathan, which (regardless of what you personally believe) the Dalish believe was comprised entirely of elven mages (and we know from Witch Hunt that there were indeed elven mages among the Arlathan elves), there is (in modern day Thedas) the Chasind Wilders, the Avvar tribes, the Dalish clans, and centuries ago there was the nation of the Dales. All of these are societies with mages in positions of authority, who aren't trying to emulate the Imperium.

[TEWR]

Morroian wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

PC's, yes. But aside from that, demonology tends to go bad. Even Avernus couldn't control them like he thought

Avernus tried to control many demons. Merrill is only dealing with 1. 

that was also trapped in a demonic Buddha statue and could only be freed by powerful magic, something Merrill had no intention of actually doing.

Merrill was safe the whole time

[Morroian]

IanPolaris wrote...
 He's trying to tell a whole lot of us (it's not just me that's reading the new Lelianna as anti-mage and an unwelcome change from DAO by a long chalk)

But who seem to be either your partner in magery or who hate Leliana. Hardly anyone looking at the situation objectively. Heck I'm someone who has always argued for freedom for the mages yet I don't see her as being anti mage in general.

[Herr Uhl]

LobselVith8 wrote...

TheJediSaint wrote...

I always interpeted the "fall to magic" line as a reference to the Tevinter imperium.  In the living memory of Thedas, Tevinter is the only example of a society run by mages.  In the past, Tevinter mages sacrificed thousands of slaves to fuel blood magic, and were probably responsible for the creation of the darkspawn due to their pursuit of power.  In the current Imperium, you have magisters freely using blood magic to gain advantage over rivals.  They also conduct magical experiments of questionable ethics on slaves, one such experiment resulting in Fenris.  So when Lelianna says Kirkwall must not fall to magic, my guess she means she does not want what happend in Tevinter to happen there.

The Tevinter Imperium isn't only society run by mages in living memory. There was the kingdom of Arlathan, which (regardless of what you personally believe) the Dalish believe was comprised entirely of elven mages (and we know from Witch Hunt that there were indeed elven mages among the Arlathan elves), there is (in modern day Thedas) the Chasind Wilders, the Avvar tribes, the Dalish clans, and centuries ago there was the nation of the Dales. All of these are societies with mages in positions of authority, who aren't trying to emulate the Imperium.

Arlathan isn't living memory, the others are reclusive.

What will most think about when "society run by mages" is brought up in Thedas? What is she most likely to allude to?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Morroian wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
 He's trying to tell a whole lot of us (it's not just me that's reading the new Lelianna as anti-mage and an unwelcome change from DAO by a long chalk)

But who seem to be either your partner in magery or who hate Leliana. Hardly anyone looking at the situation objectively. Heck I'm someone who has always argued for freedom for the mages yet I don't see her as being anti mage in general.

I didn't see the anti-mageness either. Perhaps exagerrated caution, but I do not see genuine maliciousness towards mages.  And who knows what Leliana's been through for 6 years.

[Xilizhra]

Rifneno wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I disagree on the demonology part. The Warden can extort the knowledge of blood magic from Connor's desire demon for free, Hawke can deal with the hunger demon and then bully her way past. The point is to never trust them or treat them as friends, and I think that Merrill did reasonably well on that point.

In any case, I think the Eluvian was a red herring and Audacity's real target all along was Marethari, whom he was likely covertly influencing to turn the clan against Merrill.

PC's, yes. But aside from that, demonology tends to go bad. Even Avernus couldn't control them like he thought and he's accomplished more than any blood mage I've seen not holding a "magister" title. A few mages might pull it off, but for the GREAT majority they can't handle a demon. And how do you separate those that can from those that only think they can? Better not to risk it.

I agree about the Eluvian though. At least in that Audacity's real goal was to manipulate Marethari.

Avernus was trying to summon a whole bunch of demons in an extremely stressful situation. Merrill's had years of prep time and only wants to talk with one; the situations are nowhere near comparable. Not only that, she does have PC support.

[IanPolaris]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Morroian wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
 He's trying to tell a whole lot of us (it's not just me that's reading the new Lelianna as anti-mage and an unwelcome change from DAO by a long chalk)

But who seem to be either your partner in magery or who hate Leliana. Hardly anyone looking at the situation objectively. Heck I'm someone who has always argued for freedom for the mages yet I don't see her as being anti mage in general.

I didn't see the anti-mageness either. Perhaps exagerrated caution, but I do not see genuine maliciousness towards mages.  And who knows what Leliana's been through for 6 years.

Perhaps.  I never said it was universal, but a large number of posters including the OP complained that the new Lels was anti-mage LONG before I joined this discussion, so it's not true it's just me and my imaginary cohorts.

-Polaris

Edit PS:  A large part of the angst no doubt comes from the notion (which I think is justifed) that for many, Lelianna shouldn't have had ANY experiences over the past six years being dead and all.  I still think that retcon was inexcusable even if I personally very seldom (only once with an explicitly evil Warden) ever killed Lelianna myself.

Modifié par IanPolaris, 15 août 2011 - 02:00 .

[Erani]

Morroian wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
 He's trying to tell a whole lot of us (it's not just me that's reading the new Lelianna as anti-mage and an unwelcome change from DAO by a long chalk)

But who seem to be either your partner in magery or who hate Leliana. Hardly anyone looking at the situation objectively. Heck I'm someone who has always argued for freedom for the mages yet I don't see her as being anti mage in general.

Well I'm not Polaris' partner in anything and Leliana is my favorite DA character, and I did perceive her to be "anti-mage" in DA2. Yes, we don't have all the facts and of course I will wait until more information is revealed, but that was just the way she appeared to me. If she indeed were to be "anti-mage" in the future, I'd be hugely disappointed because she did not act that way in DAO at all. Perhaps it was a mask she showed to the Warden, but Leliana seemed to be a very compassionate person and agreeing with the way mages were treated in Kirkwall is just in no way in character for her. 

But again, we need more info to make an objective conclusion on this. A romanced hardened Leliana for example might have different motives in working for the Divine and/or position on the Chantry/Mages conflict.

[KnightofPhoenix]

IanPolaris wrote...
Perhaps.  I never said it was universal, but a large number of posters including the OP complained that the new Lels was anti-mage LONG before I joined this discussion, so it's not true it's just me and my imaginary cohorts.

-Polaris

Yes, I am aware of that.

While I believe the concern is legitimate seeing how mages were badly potrayed, something that devs more or less admitted, maybe the concern is getting a bit excessive considering the lack of info we have. Leliana's comment is certainly not "political correct" if they would understand such a concept,  but I would not say that she is genuinely anti-mage a la Meredith based on that.

But that's my own interpretation and well, I do not possess the authority to tell you that yours is wrong. Not unless we recieve further info.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 15 août 2011 - 02:03 .