Rifneno wrote...
AMEN. So you one of the gray choices you made turned out not to be so gray. Fine. Get over it. Don't tell us we just "don't understand" because we live "comfortable Western lives" without "a kitten that CAN EXPLODE IN YOUR FACE AND TAKE OUT AN ENTIRE CITY BLOCK IF YOU TOUCH IT" (yes, David Gaider actually said that!).
Rifneno wrote...
AMEN. So you one of the gray choices you made turned out not to be so gray. Fine. Get over it. Don't tell us we just "don't understand" because we live "comfortable Western lives" without "a kitten that CAN EXPLODE IN YOUR FACE AND TAKE OUT AN ENTIRE CITY BLOCK IF YOU TOUCH IT" (yes, David Gaider actually said that!).
The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Rifneno, Avernus summoned much more than just a bunch of rage demons. There were also hunger and sloth demons (not sure which, but the one that talked to Avernus was clearly not a Rage demon) and a Pride Demon that ended up possessing Sophia. Along with a Desire Demon that came through the fade, a Pride Demon that possessed a corpse and became an Arcane Horror, and who knows what other types of demons that possessed the corpses of Arland's men, nobility, and the Wardens that fell.
Dave of Canada wrote...
Rifneno wrote...
AMEN. So you one of the gray choices you made turned out not to be so gray. Fine. Get over it. Don't tell us we just "don't understand" because we live "comfortable Western lives" without "a kitten that CAN EXPLODE IN YOUR FACE AND TAKE OUT AN ENTIRE CITY BLOCK IF YOU TOUCH IT" (yes, David Gaider actually said that!).
... except that he has a point?
IanPolaris wrote...
No he doesn't unless you want to toss all modern understanding of ethics, law, and justice in the wastebin.
-Polaris
Modifié par Dave of Canada, 15 août 2011 - 02:52 .
Rifneno wrote...
But of course, that's just my view on it, no need for the templar supporters to make another 75 posts explaining that you need a 5-page, notarized document from a character before drawing any conclusion whatsoever about them.
IanPolaris wrote...
The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Rifneno, Avernus summoned much more than just a bunch of rage demons. There were also hunger and sloth demons (not sure which, but the one that talked to Avernus was clearly not a Rage demon) and a Pride Demon that ended up possessing Sophia. Along with a Desire Demon that came through the fade, a Pride Demon that possessed a corpse and became an Arcane Horror, and who knows what other types of demons that possessed the corpses of Arland's men, nobility, and the Wardens that fell.
He did more than summon a bunch of rage demons. Even his tower is filled with possessed corpses of the Wardens.
Although to be totally fair, it's not clear how many of the walking dead were caused by Avernus' demonology and how many were au natural due to the torn veil. I personally think that most of the walking dead we find in Warden's keep were natural results of a torn veil myself.
-Polaris
IanPolaris wrote...
Morroian wrote...
IanPolaris wrote...
Morroian wrote...
He's not being mealy mouthed, what he said was perfectly understandable.
He's trying to say "your wrong" without actually saying "you're wrong". That's almost being mealy mouthed by definition.
Like others have said I'd say he's saying you're wrong, with no tiptoing around it. You said DA2 portrayed her as being anti mage. He said they didn't portray her as being anti mage in DA2, ergo you're wrong.
Actually what DG said was that they didn't intend to protray her as anti-mage. That doesn't mean they didn't because they clearly did for a large number of their custumers (not just me....this charge long predates my participation in this thread).Given the fact that large numbers of people disagree that she was portrayed as being anti mage you really should acknowledge that its clearly ambiguous.
Except it shouldn't be. If the Devs did not intend to protray her as anti-mage then NO ONE should be viewing her as anti-mage. Elthina has many negative traits but even as the Grand Cleric you don't see people seriously accusing her of being anti-mage, do you? This is a clear failure of writing, but DG seems to be blaming his audience rather than his writing and that's not right.
Even then it was DG (not me) that opened up the floodgates further by not denying she was in fact anti-mage and alluding to other motivations and then saying it was under double-top-secret classification (double-top secret being my term not his).
-Polaris
. Expecting a solid answer based purely on wild speculations may be what you desire but it may not be what the rest of us want...
The only way for that to happen is violent revolution originating with the resolutionists ergo she's anti the resolutionists.IanPolaris wrote...
Yes, but Lelianna said "lest Kirkwall fall to 'magic'" with no qualifications, no specifications, and in response to that being the logical outcome of mage freedom. Seems pretty intently anti-mage to me.
I'm pro mage (and Leliana) and I disagree.Rifneno wrote...
This. The biggest issue isn't what was said, but who said it. Leliana was awesome in DAO. She was understanding and forgiving almost to a fault. For her to go from "magic is a gift from the Maker and anyone who says otherwise is just jealous" to "Kirkwall must not fall to magic!" is a pretty stark contrast.
But of course, that's just my view on it, no need for the templar supporters to make another 75 posts explaining that you need a 5-page, notarized document from a character before drawing any conclusion whatsoever about them.
Modifié par Morroian, 15 août 2011 - 02:55 .
KnightofPhoenix wrote...
The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Rifneno, Avernus summoned much more than just a bunch of rage demons. There were also hunger and sloth demons (not sure which, but the one that talked to Avernus was clearly not a Rage demon) and a Pride Demon that ended up possessing Sophia. Along with a Desire Demon that came through the fade, a Pride Demon that possessed a corpse and became an Arcane Horror, and who knows what other types of demons that possessed the corpses of Arland's men, nobility, and the Wardens that fell.
And the fact that he remained immune to possession for centuries while using blood magic in his research is very impressive and seems to contradict the idea that mages, blood mages specifically, are very vulnerable to demons (the way DA2 mages are. who end up possessed in seconds).
Modifié par CodyMelch, 15 août 2011 - 02:53 .
IanPolaris wrote...
Basically yes. Put up or shut up.
Modifié par phaonica, 15 août 2011 - 02:56 .
KnightofPhoenix wrote...
The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Rifneno, Avernus summoned much more than just a bunch of rage demons. There were also hunger and sloth demons (not sure which, but the one that talked to Avernus was clearly not a Rage demon) and a Pride Demon that ended up possessing Sophia. Along with a Desire Demon that came through the fade, a Pride Demon that possessed a corpse and became an Arcane Horror, and who knows what other types of demons that possessed the corpses of Arland's men, nobility, and the Wardens that fell.
And the fact that he remained immune to possession for centuries while using blood magic in his research is very impressive and seems to contradict the idea that mages, blood mages specifically, are very vulnerable to demons (the way DA2 mages are. who end up possessed in seconds).
CodyMelch wrote...
To be fair, the vale in kirkwall is pretty thin..to the point that it is like it is stuck in limbo between being a city in the fade to being a city in the free marches....coimbined with mages being locked in a cell and tormented by the templars....well.....not really hard to see really. Plus Avernus was a Grey Warden, and an experienced mage even before the keep was overrun.
KnightofPhoenix wrote...
The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Rifneno, Avernus summoned much more than just a bunch of rage demons. There were also hunger and sloth demons (not sure which, but the one that talked to Avernus was clearly not a Rage demon) and a Pride Demon that ended up possessing Sophia. Along with a Desire Demon that came through the fade, a Pride Demon that possessed a corpse and became an Arcane Horror, and who knows what other types of demons that possessed the corpses of Arland's men, nobility, and the Wardens that fell.
And the fact that he remained immune to possession for centuries while using blood magic in his research is very impressive and seems to contradict the idea that mages, blood mages specifically, are very vulnerable to demons (the way DA2 mages are. who end up possessed in seconds).
Rifneno wrote...
AMEN. So you one of the gray choices you made turned out not to be so gray. Fine. Get over it. Don't tell us we just "don't understand" because we live "comfortable Western lives" without "a kitten that CAN EXPLODE IN YOUR FACE AND TAKE OUT AN ENTIRE CITY BLOCK IF YOU TOUCH IT" (yes, David Gaider actually said that!).
I cannot believe he wrote that.
Erani wrote...
So this group of people who...were born a certain way..
Modifié par Dave of Canada, 15 août 2011 - 03:00 .
LobselVith8 wrote...
KnightofPhoenix wrote...
The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Rifneno, Avernus summoned much more than just a bunch of rage demons. There were also hunger and sloth demons (not sure which, but the one that talked to Avernus was clearly not a Rage demon) and a Pride Demon that ended up possessing Sophia. Along with a Desire Demon that came through the fade, a Pride Demon that possessed a corpse and became an Arcane Horror, and who knows what other types of demons that possessed the corpses of Arland's men, nobility, and the Wardens that fell.
And the fact that he remained immune to possession for centuries while using blood magic in his research is very impressive and seems to contradict the idea that mages, blood mages specifically, are very vulnerable to demons (the way DA2 mages are. who end up possessed in seconds).
Not to mention the Kirkwall mages get possessed in a few seconds while still being in the real world contradicts what was established in Origins with mages entering the Fade and not being conscious or aware in the real world, which is lore given the history behind Aeonar.
Morroian wrote...
IanPolaris wrote...
Yes, but Lelianna said "lest Kirkwall fall to 'magic'" with no qualifications, no specifications, and in response to that being the logical outcome of mage freedom. Seems pretty intently anti-mage to me.
The only way for that to happen is violent revolution originating with the resolutionists ergo she's anti the resolutionists.
KnightofPhoenix wrote...
CodyMelch wrote...
To be fair, the vale in kirkwall is pretty thin..to the point that it is like it is stuck in limbo between being a city in the fade to being a city in the free marches....coimbined with mages being locked in a cell and tormented by the templars....well.....not really hard to see really. Plus Avernus was a Grey Warden, and an experienced mage even before the keep was overrun.
And that, I see as a poor excuse. So long as it's something that was not actually explored.
Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 15 août 2011 - 03:01 .
Erani wrote...
Rifneno wrote...
AMEN. So you one of the gray choices you made turned out not to be so gray. Fine. Get over it. Don't tell us we just "don't understand" because we live "comfortable Western lives" without "a kitten that CAN EXPLODE IN YOUR FACE AND TAKE OUT AN ENTIRE CITY BLOCK IF YOU TOUCH IT" (yes, David Gaider actually said that!).
I...actually had not seen that comment by David Gaider....I....
Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 15 août 2011 - 03:03 .
The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
A mage of the Antivan circle liked to travel the fade as a hobby once forgot to inform the templars that she would be absent from her body for three whole days. They mistakenly buried her alive. Another mage claimed her shoes.
The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
KnightofPhoenix wrote...
CodyMelch wrote...
To be fair, the vale in kirkwall is pretty thin..to the point that it is like it is stuck in limbo between being a city in the fade to being a city in the free marches....coimbined with mages being locked in a cell and tormented by the templars....well.....not really hard to see really. Plus Avernus was a Grey Warden, and an experienced mage even before the keep was overrun.
And that, I see as a poor excuse. So long as it's something that was not actually explored.
You know what made me laugh? A codex in Legacy tried to explain the Enigma of Kirkwall codex.
Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 15 août 2011 - 03:02 .
KnightofPhoenix wrote...
The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
KnightofPhoenix wrote...
CodyMelch wrote...
To be fair, the vale in kirkwall is pretty thin..to the point that it is like it is stuck in limbo between being a city in the fade to being a city in the free marches....coimbined with mages being locked in a cell and tormented by the templars....well.....not really hard to see really. Plus Avernus was a Grey Warden, and an experienced mage even before the keep was overrun.
And that, I see as a poor excuse. So long as it's something that was not actually explored.
You know what made me laugh? A codex in Legacy tried to explain the Enigma of Kirkwall codex.
Haha, what did it say? Is there a wiki entry on it?
Guest_Puddi III_*
Herr Uhl wrote...
Rifneno wrote...
But of course, that's just my view on it, no need for the templar supporters to make another 75 posts explaining that you need a 5-page, notarized document from a character before drawing any conclusion whatsoever about them.
The conclusion you draw may be flawed though.
Modifié par Filament, 15 août 2011 - 03:05 .
LobselVith8 wrote...
Given the reception that Meredith is receiving with a pro-mage Hawke who actively and publicly stands against her, that isn't correct. Kirkwall could become a mecca for mages behind an apostate Champion of Kirkwall, since the Kirkwallers openly advocate for Hawke to become the new Viscount (even as an illegal mage) and for Meredith's removal as the de facto Viscount and dictator of the city-state.
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