968 réponses à ce sujet

[Dave of Canada]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I think the intention was to make it more ambiguous, as most would side with mages by default. But frankly, I think they not only went into overkill mode, but they went into "raargh! crazy!" mode that not only made this a miserable failure imo, but a pretty comedic one.

Honestly, considering the reaction of the average forumite, I'd consider that even if they devoted an entire game to showing Templar as being absolute saints and showing mages as the worst thing in existence that we'd still find the Templar as the minority forum support.

(Before you joke about it, DA2 was not that game.)

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 15 août 2011 - 03:05 .

[Lenimph]

Filament wrote...

 And I would wonder why people who have so little respect for the writers to give them no benefit of the doubt on this would continue to follow the franchise written by them at all.

This.

[Herr Uhl]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

A mage of the Antivan circle liked to travel the fade as a hobby once forgot to inform the templars that she would be absent from her body for three whole days. They mistakenly buried her alive. Another mage claimed her shoes.

They should teach people to at least check the pulse before declaring someone dead.

If all functions ceased for 3 days straight and she'd come back as anything but a vedgetable, biology in Thedas is weirder than I thought.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Dave of Canada wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I think the intention was to make it more ambiguous, as most would side with mages by default. But frankly, I think they not only went into overkill mode, but they went into "raargh! crazy!" mode that not only made this a miserable failure imo, but a pretty comedic one.

Honestly, considering the reaction of the average forumite, I'd consider that even if they devoted an entire game to showing Templar as being absolute saints and showing mages as the worst thing in existence that we'd still find the Templar as the minority forum support.

(Before you joke about it, DA2 was not that game.)

Which is why they should not allow that to dictate or influence the writing imo.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 15 août 2011 - 03:09 .

[TEWR]

Codex Entry: Speculations on Kirkwall


The records say Corypheus has been trapped below the Vimmarks since the days of the Tevinter Imperium. Can it be a coincidence that the darkspawn besiege this area more fiercely than anywhere else on the surface of Thedas? Or that Kirkwall, the closest city, suffers from endless plagues of violence, lunacy, human sacrifice, and blood magic?

If one studies Kirkwall's public records, it becomes hard to deny that some malevolent force has long shaped its history. Could a darkspawn, even a powerful mage, have such influence even as it slumbers?

—From a weathered journal bearing the Grey Wardens' seal

[Dave of Canada]

Herr Uhl wrote...

They should teach people to at least check the pulse before declaring someone dead.

I think they didn't assume she was dead, simply assumed she'd come back possessed. Sort of similar to why they kill mages who take too long in the Harrowing. I doubt mages in the Fade stop breathing.

[LobselVith8]

Morroian wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Given the reception that Meredith is receiving with a pro-mage Hawke who actively and publicly stands against her, that isn't correct. Kirkwall could become a mecca for mages behind an apostate Champion of Kirkwall, since the Kirkwallers openly advocate for Hawke to become the new Viscount (even as an illegal mage) and for Meredith's removal as the de facto Viscount and dictator of the city-state.

And how was that going to happen without violent overthrow of the templars? Who control the office of the VIscount.

In other words, it doesn't have to have anything to do with the Resolutionists because nobles, commoners, guards, mages, and even templars want to see Meredith removed as Kirkwall's dictator, and even if Hawke tries to make Kirkwall a mecca for mages it doesn't require any assistance from the Resolutionists?

[TEWR]

Herr Uhl wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

A mage of the Antivan circle liked to travel the fade as a hobby once forgot to inform the templars that she would be absent from her body for three whole days. They mistakenly buried her alive. Another mage claimed her shoes.

They should teach people to at least check the pulse before declaring someone dead.

If all functions ceased for 3 days straight and she'd come back as anything but a vedgetable, biology in Thedas is weirder than I thought.

Well, going to the Fade is akin to sleeping. You're still breathing. You're still alive. You're just unconscious.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

AMEN. So you one of the gray choices you made turned out not to be so gray. Fine. Get over it. Don't tell us we just "don't understand" because we live "comfortable Western lives" without "a kitten that CAN EXPLODE IN YOUR FACE AND TAKE OUT AN ENTIRE CITY BLOCK IF YOU TOUCH IT" (yes, David Gaider actually said that!).

... except that he has a point?

No, he does not have a point. Such a ridiculous over simplification of mages was one of the reasons I had a really hard time taking DA2's representation of the mage/templar conflict serious.

If mages were really that weak and vulnerable to demonic possesion to the point they all become screaming abominations, and were, as Gaider so idiotically put it, kittens that explode on contact and take out city blocks, Thedas would not exist as a civilized continent, period. There would be no nations or empires, because the continent would be overrun by abominations and hoards of demons. Tevinter would have never even existed, because you can't have an uber ebil magocracy if all the magisters are batsh*t abominations.

So no, he doesn't have a point, at least not one that would stand in a rational setting. Hell, during the Broken Circle quest in Origins when you get to Uldred, you see that he has to torture mages and tries forcing demons in them, yet most of them to that point, have resisted.

As others have pointed out, we have Avernus as an example that even a blood mage, if skilled, knowledgedable, and strong enough, can pretty much fight off possesion for centuries, even in an area thats swarmed by demons with a near absent veil.

And I won't even go into the non-Andrastian societies that have other systems in which mages are seen more positively.

Saying every mage is a bad hair day away from becoming an abomination is like saying every man is a bad hair day away from becoming a rapist or sexual predator, simply because he was born with a dick.<_<

[Monica21]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Codex Entry: Speculations on Kirkwall


The records say Corypheus has been trapped below the Vimmarks since the days of the Tevinter Imperium. Can it be a coincidence that the darkspawn besiege this area more fiercely than anywhere else on the surface of Thedas? Or that Kirkwall, the closest city, suffers from endless plagues of violence, lunacy, human sacrifice, and blood magic?

If one studies Kirkwall's public records, it becomes hard to deny that some malevolent force has long shaped its history. Could a darkspawn, even a powerful mage, have such influence even as it slumbers?

—From a weathered journal bearing the Grey Wardens' seal

If you read that, along with the Enigma of Kirkwall codex and then the thread speculating about the Primeval Thaig, I think it has more to do with that than "everyone is crazy because of Corypheus."

[IanPolaris]

Dave of Canada wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

No he doesn't unless you want to toss all modern understanding of ethics, law, and justice in the wastebin.  

-Polaris

Considering those don't really exist on Thedas, sure!

Thedas doesn't exist, but those values DO exist in the primarily western audience playing the game and making the moral choice.  You don't win the moral argument by insulting the very audience that you are trying to sell your story to.

-Polaris

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Codex Entry: Speculations on Kirkwall


The records say Corypheus has been trapped below the Vimmarks since the days of the Tevinter Imperium. Can it be a coincidence that the darkspawn besiege this area more fiercely than anywhere else on the surface of Thedas? Or that Kirkwall, the closest city, suffers from endless plagues of violence, lunacy, human sacrifice, and blood magic?

If one studies Kirkwall's public records, it becomes hard to deny that some malevolent force has long shaped its history. Could a darkspawn, even a powerful mage, have such influence even as it slumbers?

—From a weathered journal bearing the Grey Wardens' seal

*rubs temples*

If Legacy was supposed to re-attract my interest, it's failing. Pretty badly.

If this is the future of Thedas, for it to be dictated by inhuman "malevolent forces", consider me completely indifferent. Heck, now Mass Effect is more apealing to me.

[Dave of Canada]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Which is why they should not allow that to dictate the writing imo.

Kind of agreed, I like exploring the darker side of magic in DA2. Found DA:O showed them too much as the innocent victim, especially seeing as some of the worst mages we see are people like Jowan.

Assuming we're going to cover the Mage / Templar war in a future game, I'd like seeing more the dangers of magic explored with reasonable mages objecting. Like an entire village converted to demon time-bombs, so they'd bring in the Templar and ambush them during the night or a lord enthralled by a blood mage and his army is used against the Templar.

Likewise, I'd like to see the fanatics of the Templar order go to extreme lengths to try and contain mages. Raiding caravans for lyrium, burning down a village which they believe is hiding mages, ect. Of course, to balance out the entire thing we'd have to see the Templar who find these extreme methods to be brutal.

IMO, if Bioware is ever going to explore branching plots, the best chance to explore it (imo) will be DA3.

[IanPolaris]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Erani wrote...

So this group of people who...were born a certain way..

It's not that simple, it's almost like if you all believe being a mage is harmless and they are being prosecuted because it's funny. When a writer says otherwise, I don't get the freak out reaction.

Yes it is that simple.  Mages are being treated as less than human because of what they are rather than what they have done.   It's fundamentally unethical.

-Polaris

[Zjarcal]

I don't get what's so bad about that codex entry. But eh, I don't get a lot of things.

[TEWR]

I enjoyed the thin Veil more when it had to do with the Tevinters seemingly doing it of their own volition for some other reason.

Now I just find it laughable.

[Dave of Canada]

IanPolaris wrote...

Thedas doesn't exist, but those values DO exist in the primarily western audience playing the game and making the moral choice.  You don't win the moral argument by insulting the very audience that you are trying to sell your story to.

-Polaris

Or he's just expecting it's players to not metagame.

[TEWR]

Zjarcal wrote...

I don't get what's so bad about that codex entry. But eh, I don't get a lot of things.

It's that Bioware felt the need to resort to the supernatural forces to explain a part of the plot. again.


and by supernatural, I mean things beyond the mere capability of men. No zealotry, no fanaticism, no traits of men.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 15 août 2011 - 03:18 .

[Monica21]

Zjarcal wrote...

I don't get what's so bad about that codex entry. But eh, I don't get a lot of things.

I don't get why it's so bad either, but, eh.

[Shadow Fox]

Dave of Canada wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

No he doesn't unless you want to toss all modern understanding of ethics, law, and justice in the wastebin.  

-Polaris

Considering those don't really exist on Thedas, sure!

THIS! I will never understand how people can apply modern ethics to a game that's effectively set in the damn Dark Ages.

Modifié par Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke, 15 août 2011 - 03:21 .

[TEWR]

Dave of Canada wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Thedas doesn't exist, but those values DO exist in the primarily western audience playing the game and making the moral choice.  You don't win the moral argument by insulting the very audience that you are trying to sell your story to.

-Polaris

Or he's just expecting it's players to not metagame.

Had the mage-Templar conflict been portrayed fairly and accurately (and was obviously well done), people would be able to see the merits of both sides' arguments and be stuck in a moral dilemma.

I fail to see one in DAII.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Zjarcal wrote...

I don't get what's so bad about that codex entry. But eh, I don't get a lot of things.

Because it's stripping the franchise of humanity if "malevolent forces" can influence it in such a fashion, imo.

That's not what I am interested in. At all. Regardless of whether the writers are using it as a poor excuse for bad writing, or genuinely think this is interesting.

[Erani]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Erani wrote...

So this group of people who...were born a certain way..

It's not that simple, it's almost like if you all believe being a mage is harmless and they are being prosecuted because it's funny. When a writer says otherwise, I don't get the freak out reaction.

This is not what I said at all. I don't see what part of my post indicates I see mages as harmless.

If you have a person with a problem (blood magic) for which you have identified a cause, or several, then work to eliminate the cause of the problem, not the person. If the Chantry/Templars keep pushing the mages, then the mages will continue to turn to blood magic, and you can kill those mages but then other mages will turn to blood magic and so on and so forth. It does not address the root of the problem. The way they are treated directly affects their susceptibility to blood magic.

If I'm a mage and constantly hearing about/seeing other mages that have been raped, or have gone through it, have been beaten or my child taken from me...all that resentment and hate will accumulate and ti might get so bad that one day I'll snap and give the demon the OK.

If on the other hand, the Circles had different conditions like: templar recruits investigated more thoroughly, templars be closely supervised, cases of sexual misconduct resulted in expulsion of templar, a Knight-Commander that is not so biased and hates mages, mages given more time with their children, more personal space, opportunity to meet with their family members regularly...then the mage might feel a certain amount of contentment and accept their lives (such as Wynne and Bethany for example)

[IanPolaris]

Dave of Canada wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Thedas doesn't exist, but those values DO exist in the primarily western audience playing the game and making the moral choice.  You don't win the moral argument by insulting the very audience that you are trying to sell your story to.

-Polaris

Or he's just expecting it's players to not metagame.

Bolluxs.  There is nothing wrong with playing an evil character in a CRPG.  However, BW's intent is clearly to make the player struggle over "grey" choices.  By whose perspective are they "grey":  The player's own moral perspective.  Thedas is very much a modern ethical society (for the most part) in Middle-ages drag.  There is even such modern concepts as genocide (see Wynne) and justice under the law that weren't found in midaevel settings.

Basically BW is assuming that most players will use their own moral set which is why they set up (at least in DAO) the moral dilemnas as they do.

-Polaris

[David Gaider]

IanPolaris wrote...
DG is indeed no obligated to tell us if our interpretation of Lelianna as "anti-mage" is correct or not, but if he's not willing to spill the beans, then he's really not entitled to tell us that we're wrong either.  DG seems to me to be trying to have it both ways.  He's trying to tell a whole lot of us (it's not just me that's reading the new Lelianna as anti-mage and an unwelcome change from DAO by a long chalk) that we're "wrong" without actually having to say whether she is or isn't anti-mage.

That doesn't fly.  If DG isn't willing to clarify this, then with all due respect he should butt out.

Ha.

Try to caution some people who are leaping to conclusions and treating their conclusions as facts (and big surprise to see IanPolaris at the middle of that) and you get people calling you "mealy-mouthed" or various other insults. Apparently I should either explain everything in detail (because that couldn't possibly be further misinterpreted) or just shut up and get the hell out of the forums? Charming.

As interesting as all this is, I think some folks here need to tone down the rhetoric or they'll face some bans-- permanent this time, for those who have been banned before. If you can't discuss the topic without working yourself up into a frenzy, I suggest avoiding it.