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[TEWR]

If Corypheus is able to influence people (people who don't have the taint, which is what we were told), then it's pointless.

If the Magisters wanted to enter the City again, then fine. They wanted the power of the gods (again). That's better storytelling.

But if it was Corypheus influencing them to try to obtain the power of the gods because that's what he wanted, then it's pointless.

[Rifneno]

Ryzaki wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

No he doesn't unless you want to toss all modern understanding of ethics, law, and justice in the wastebin.  

-Polaris

Considering those don't really exist on Thedas, sure!

THIS! I will never understand how people can aply modern ethics to a game that's effectively set in the damn Dark Ages.

I'm inclined to agree. Not dark ages but very medivalish and barbaric. The ethics are similar in some ways...but this is a world where a noble can drag off an elven woman, rape her, kill her and no one does a damn thing about it (and those that would usually don't have enough power too unless they're the protagonist). 

And this is exactly why I laugh off the "modern ethics" excuse.  No one ever pretends Vaughn the rapist isn't an evil bastard.  Nobody pretends slavery is acceptable even though it's rampant in Thedas.  Nobody pretends the Tevinter Imperium wasn't made out of pure concentrated evil even though they're no more to blame for their culture than the templars are for theirs (except Baconer, but I'm pretty sure he's sarcastic).  The only time we hear this "you can't use modern ethics!" argument is in the defense of the Chantry, and thus is strikes me as an excuse all other defenses of their actions fail.

[Ryzaki]

TJPags wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I'm inclined to agree. The ethics are similar in some ways...but this is a world where a noble can drag off an elven woman, rape her, kill her and no one does a damn thing about it (and those that would usually don't have enough power too unless they're the protagonist).

We are the players. We will react in ways that suit us, regardless of whatever backwards people the setting contains think.

Yes, we will.

And some of us will accept the ethics of the time we are given in the world we are given, and will make our choices through that prism.

So, yea - mages bad, templars necessary, exalted march in the making.

And oh how I hope to all the gods of Thedas that, in the event DA3 has anything to do with the mage/templar conflict, there's an option to crush the mages, and chain any survivors in the depths of the darkest pit that can be found.

This so much. 

If there's a mage wins everyone's happy!!!11 ending I want a mages lose everyone's happy!!111 ending. 

 And maybe a mage wins everyone but mages unhappy and templars win everyone but mages are happy ending. To even out the pot. 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Herr Uhl wrote...
Did you think that the earlier entries about the "enigma of Kirkwall" was about economics or politics?

It was clearly something of a magical nature, and having it manifest in Corpheys isn't that different from what I expected. The reasons for why this ritual happened can be grounded in economics, social or political factors.

No I didn't, and I've always found it ridiculous. But I always thought of it as an excuse and not an actual direction they are taking.

But if Legacy keeps dwelling on it, which seems to raise the likelyhood of it being an actual direction and not just an excuse, then my concern for the future of the franchise is increasing. And my leaning towards complete indifference becoming more likely.

[Herr Uhl]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

If Corypheus is able to influence people (people who don't have the taint, which is what we were told), then it's pointless.

If the Magisters wanted to enter the City again, then fine. They wanted the power of the gods (again). That's better storytelling.

But if it was Corypheus influencing them to try to obtain the power of the gods because that's what he wanted, then it's pointless.

But we have accepted that the old gods did just that for a long time. Why is this so much different?

[RagingCyclone]

Melca36 wrote...


The anti mage people fail to realize that this war is NOT going to be only Mage VS Templar.

THIS

[Ryzaki]

Rifneno wrote...
And this is exactly why I laugh off the "modern ethics" excuse.  No one ever pretends Vaughn the rapist isn't an evil bastard.  Nobody pretends slavery is acceptable even though it's rampant in Thedas.  Nobody pretends the Tevinter Imperium wasn't made out of pure concentrated evil even though they're no more to blame for their culture than the templars are for theirs (except Baconer, but I'm pretty sure he's sarcastic).  The only time we hear this "you can't use modern ethics!" argument is in the defense of the Chantry, and thus is strikes me as an excuse all other defenses of their actions fail.

...Slavery is rampant in the Tevinter Imperium. The places we've been to (Kirkwall, Fereldan) have no legal slavery so what rampant are you talking about? Its practiced in Tevinter and "servants" in Orlais. Two places we have not been to. So...what are you on about rampant throught Thedas and no one pretending it's acceptable? You been all throught Thedas have you? 

Vaughn? The only people you see react to Vaughn's rape of the elven women are ELVES (shocking that they'd think he's an evil bastard for it really!) and Duncan who happens to be a cool dude. (And Cailan who is nice mc stupid). As well as people in your party (and the ones you talk to about it tend to be elves or fall on the nicer side of the spectrum). 

The massive butthurt if someone dared say anything positive about a rapist that would befall these forums are probably too much for BW to bother with. 
Defense of the Chantry? I'm defending the Chantry? That's...news to me. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 15 août 2011 - 03:39 .

[Ryzaki]

RagingCyclone wrote...

Melca36 wrote...


The anti mage people fail to realize that this war is NOT going to be only Mage VS Templar.

THIS

 

More like both the pro mage and anti mage people fail to realize that. 

[Xilizhra]

Ryzaki wrote...

Rifneno wrote...
And this is exactly why I laugh off the "modern ethics" excuse.  No one ever pretends Vaughn the rapist isn't an evil bastard.  Nobody pretends slavery is acceptable even though it's rampant in Thedas.  Nobody pretends the Tevinter Imperium wasn't made out of pure concentrated evil even though they're no more to blame for their culture than the templars are for theirs (except Baconer, but I'm pretty sure he's sarcastic).  The only time we hear this "you can't use modern ethics!" argument is in the defense of the Chantry, and thus is strikes me as an excuse all other defenses of their actions fail.

...Slavery is rampant in the Tevinter Imperium. The places we've been to (Kirkwall, Fereldan) have no legal slavery so what rampant are you talking about? Its practiced in Tevinter and "servants" in Orlais. Two places we have not been to. So...what are you on? 

Defense of the Chantry? I'm defending the Chantry? That's...news to me. 

Well, you've defended Chantry genocide. And there's still the rape thing.

[Monica21]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I'd much rather have people clean up after real human problems.

I am completely indifferent. But I will wait to see if this is an attempt to excuse what we had, or it's the direction they are taking before I decide if I am done with the franchise or not.

I know how you feel about the franchise, but you can't have a world with magic and not have magical problems. Maybe you think the balance is swinging too far to the supernatural as a explanation for everything that's weird, but I still want to know why the magisters needed lakes of blood under the city.

The world of Thedas clearly has it's own problems because of magic users, the Blight being one of them. The Blight was not a human problem. 

[TEWR]

Herr Uhl wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

If Corypheus is able to influence people (people who don't have the taint, which is what we were told), then it's pointless.

If the Magisters wanted to enter the City again, then fine. They wanted the power of the gods (again). That's better storytelling.

But if it was Corypheus influencing them to try to obtain the power of the gods because that's what he wanted, then it's pointless.

But we have accepted that the old gods did just that for a long time. Why is this so much different?

The Old Gods didn't influence the magisters into doing anything. They did it of their own volition.

When I say "influence", I mean someone is actively controlling the person.

[Dave of Canada]

Ryzaki wrote...

 And maybe a mage wins everyone but mages unhappy and templars win everyone but mages are happy ending. To even out the pot. 

I'd like only these as the endings, though I like bittersweet endings the best. Don't usually like the happy endings or "third option" choices.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Herr Uhl wrote...
But we have accepted that the old gods did just that for a long time. Why is this so much different?

Because it was confined to darkspawn, not the people we interact with in the game, and what happened with the Tevinters was still shrouded in mystery that I saw this as a myth and not a fact. And it was confined to the past, and not the present.

[Herr Uhl]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...
Did you think that the earlier entries about the "enigma of Kirkwall" was about economics or politics?

It was clearly something of a magical nature, and having it manifest in Corpheys isn't that different from what I expected. The reasons for why this ritual happened can be grounded in economics, social or political factors.

No I didn't, and I've always found it ridiculous. But I always thought of it as an excuse and not an actual direction they are taking.

But if Legacy keeps dwelling on it, which seems to raise the likelyhood of it being an actual direction and not just an excuse, then my concern for the future of the franchise is increasing. And my leaning towards complete indifference becoming more likely.

I think the point of the enigma entries was to hint at legacy. So hopefully it'll be toned down.

[Shadow Fox]

Xilizhra wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

The Culture of Thedas is nothing like the Dark Ages.

-Polaris

People openly protesting get slain or thrown in prison to be tortured, guards don't mind killing citiens, the peasantry often mean nothing to lords and viewed as necessary sacrifice, slaves are present ("servants" considering slavery is illegal, though they don't enforce that rule), religion dominates everybody's life and politics, everybody is diehard religious that other religious groups are often prosecuted, people are spat on like dogs and left to starve in streets.

Such a wonderful time.

How lucky that we have the privilege of being better than that.

I assumed that a big part of roleplaying meant stepping into you're characters' shoes and trying to think like they would?

[Erani]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Erani wrote...

OK, why keep replying to my posts if you are going to twist what I write? I am talking about improving mages' lives IN THE CIRCLES! 

Because you mentioned all the bad things the Circles did earlier like taking children away, I mentioned why it's necessary. It isn't twisting anything, last time I checked.

Yes it is twisting because I never said taking the children away was not necessary (as the Circle is clearly not the right environment to raise a child what with the stalking and raping) but that maybe giving the Mother a year or so extra to spend with their young child among improving other living conditions, might just help with the situation. I gave several examples of things that could have been done to fix the Circles and might have prevented the Mage/Templar war.

[Xilizhra]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

I assumed that a big part of roleplaying meant stepping into you're characters' shoes and trying to think like they would?

Oh, I do. There are still decent people in Thedas.

[Rifneno]

Ryzaki wrote...

Rifneno wrote...
And this is exactly why I laugh off the "modern ethics" excuse.  No one ever pretends Vaughn the rapist isn't an evil bastard.  Nobody pretends slavery is acceptable even though it's rampant in Thedas.  Nobody pretends the Tevinter Imperium wasn't made out of pure concentrated evil even though they're no more to blame for their culture than the templars are for theirs (except Baconer, but I'm pretty sure he's sarcastic).  The only time we hear this "you can't use modern ethics!" argument is in the defense of the Chantry, and thus is strikes me as an excuse all other defenses of their actions fail.

...Slavery is rampant in the Tevinter Imperium. The places we've been to (Kirkwall, Fereldan) have no legal slavery so what rampant are you talking about? Its practiced in Tevinter and "servants" in Orlais. Two places we have not been to. So...what are you on? 

Defense of the Chantry? I'm defending the Chantry? That's...news to me. 

Remind me real quick, what was Zevran before the Crows BOUGHT (that's a hint!) him?

[TEWR]

Ryzaki wrote...

RagingCyclone wrote...

Melca36 wrote...


The anti mage people fail to realize that this war is NOT going to be only Mage VS Templar.

THIS

 

More like both the pro mage and anti mage people fail to realize that. 

 ummm... no?


Every time I've posted who's going to be involved (which went beyond just mages vs. Templars), I was told "Oh no they have no reason to participate!"

[Ryzaki]

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, you've defended Chantry genocide. And there's still the rape thing.

When the f*ck did I defend rape? 

[Xilizhra]

Remind me real quick, what was Zevran before the Crows BOUGHT (that's a hint!) him?

To be fair, that was in Antiva, another place we haven't visited.

[Dave of Canada]

Ryzaki wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, you've defended Chantry genocide. And there's still the rape thing.

When the f*ck did I defend rape? 

Supporting the Templar means you support rape.

At least previous arguments led me to believe this.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 15 août 2011 - 03:41 .

[TJPags]

Ryzaki wrote...

Rifneno wrote...
And this is exactly why I laugh off the "modern ethics" excuse.  No one ever pretends Vaughn the rapist isn't an evil bastard.  Nobody pretends slavery is acceptable even though it's rampant in Thedas.  Nobody pretends the Tevinter Imperium wasn't made out of pure concentrated evil even though they're no more to blame for their culture than the templars are for theirs (except Baconer, but I'm pretty sure he's sarcastic).  The only time we hear this "you can't use modern ethics!" argument is in the defense of the Chantry, and thus is strikes me as an excuse all other defenses of their actions fail.

...Slavery is rampant in the Tevinter Imperium. The places we've been to (Kirkwall, Fereldan) have no legal slavery so what rampant are you talking about? Its practiced in Tevinter and "servants" in Orlais. Two places we have not been to. So...what are you on? 

Defense of the Chantry? I'm defending the Chantry? That's...news to me. 

Exactly.  Slavery is fine in Tevinter, not in Ferelden or in Kirkwall.  Peasants with no power is the norm in Orlais, not in Ferelden.  The Chantry holds sway in every place we've been, their teachings clearly accepted by the majority of the populace.  Those teachings include mages being locked up, because they're dangerous.

I choose not to play my Warden or my Hawke as a revolutionary.  Sue me.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Dave of Canada wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

The Culture of Thedas is nothing like the Dark Ages.

-Polaris

People openly protesting get slain or thrown in prison to be tortured, guards don't mind killing citiens, the peasantry often mean nothing to lords and viewed as necessary sacrifice, slaves are present ("servants" considering slavery is illegal, though they don't enforce that rule), religion dominates everybody's life and politics, everybody is diehard religious that other religious groups are often prosecuted, people are spat on like dogs and left to starve in streets.

Such a wonderful time.

Being gay was also a big no-no of Dark Age/medieval times, yet in Thedas, people are pretty damned apathetic towards who you love and how. Also, the church of medieval times was quite anti-female, and social norms of the times held women in greatly inferior status with no property or legal rights. Yet in Thedas, half the continent is run by women, women are generals and warriors as well as politicans and other positions of power. Not to mention people in Thedas are alot better educated than they were in medieval times. Most people seem to know how to read and write, something few nobles of medieval Europe knew how to do. Sanitation and medicine seem also better in Thedas.

So no, even Dark Age mores don't completely cut it here. The attitudes of Thedas are far more progressed than any medieval real world setting.

[Ryzaki]

Rifneno wrote...
Remind me real quick, what was Zevran before the Crows BOUGHT (that's a hint!) him?

 

Cute. A slave. BTW we haven't been to antiva either so you don't know how "OMG horrible!" they think the practice is or not. You have a bias source (a slave). That's not going to be exemplary of the non-slaves anymore than Fenris is a non bias source of information about Tevinter.