968 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

Xilizhra wrote...

Fair enough. Now can you understand why claiming that a pro-mage position is metagaming is ridiculous?

...Uh...considering I never did that what's your point?  

[KnightofPhoenix]

Lenimph wrote...
But in the case of the idol it was greed and hunger for power that led to it even becoming an issue.  They were still problems caused by the weakness of men, but also influenced with magic as well.

Not when the greed of Bartrand was turned into sadistic murdering lunacy. That has nothing to do with greed.
Greed and hunger for power don't need petty idols for it to be a problem.

Outside forces effect humanity everyday: animals, weather, seismic forces. No one can control these things, and in Thedas magic is a natural force that humanity is struggling to live with, effects their political mindset, and even their way of faith.

They affect us subtly. They impose limitations on us that we attempt to overcome or deal with. They become factors in our thinking. They don't influence us in such a fashion (as in bad weather doesn't turn us into lunatics).

I do not care for magic being overblown like that. Low fantasy subdues it and focuses more on the human aspect. I though DA was supposed to lean towards low fantasy.  

EDIT: even the Fade was supposed to be influenced by the human world and not vice versa. That's why I didn't mind that much in Origins.

If you would rather play a game with real problems that have nothing to do with magic then I think Thedas isn't the realm for you.

I am coming to realize that.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 15 août 2011 - 04:04 .

[Rifneno]

Xilizhra wrote...

Remind me real quick, what was Zevran before the Crows BOUGHT (that's a hint!) him?

To be fair, that was in Antiva, another place we haven't visited.

Lots of people love the Qunari, but we haven't been to Par Vollen either. Speaking of which, they have slavery too. And it's even worse than Tevinter's, most likely. They're known to drug the free will out of people who refuse to convert to the Qun, and literally work them to death.

Ryzaki wrote...

Cute. A slave. BTW we haven't been to antiva either so you don't know how "OMG horrible!" they think the practice is or not. You have a bias source (a slave). That's not going to be exemplary of the non-slaves anymore than Fenris is a non bias source of information about Tevinter.

Yeah, he was very biased.

Warden: That's horrible!
Zevran: Oh? I don't think it was so bad.

In fact, he says pretty much nothing on the slavery issue. It's glossed over, because it's apparently not a big deal. We know slavery is illegal in Ferelden and Kirkwall... to the extent that you shouldn't even bother mention having absolute proof that Loghain sold Denerim citizens into slavery if you want to get the best Landsmeet approval, and that no one seems to care if Hawke has an elven slave. We know it's legal in Tevinter, Antiva, and whether they call it that or not, Qunari lands. All in all, slavery is frowned upon but it's not even nearly as hardcore evil as it is in our world. And Thedas is progressive as hell even for that, since most of our countries only outlawed slavery a few hundred years ago. The earliest I can remember is France in the 14th century. So yeah... you don't get to excuse the templars by using "different culture" morality and still condemn Danarius when his culture brought him up to think what he did was acceptable.

[IanPolaris]

LobselVith8 wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

What the hell is going on?

The discussion about Leliana's attitude towards mages in "Faith" has expanded to discuss the dichotomy between the mages and the templars in the Dragon Age universe.

Is that such a suprise?  After all, the Mage vs Templar conflict is (supposed to be) central to DA2 after all, and I rather strongly suspect that your view of the DA2 "Sister Nightengale" as Anti-Mage depends on how sypathetic you were towards the mages to start with.

-Polaris

[Brockololly]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...
Eh, now that I think about it should've been obvious. You have expressed that the stripping of Meredith's humanity was one of your biggest issues so it makes sense this would bother you I guess.

That being said, a fantasy game is going to have stuff like that. I mean, that was the foundation of the series in many ways.

I thought DA was supposed to be "dark" or low fantasy. Yes the blight was meh, but it didn't influence people in such a fashion (and the demons themselves acted like sentient beings in Origins). I'd much rather have the blight than the idol or thin veil. And I'd much rather not have either.

Supernatural elements can be included without stripping the story from its humanity.

Right.

There is nothing wrong with having the supernatural or magical forces at work in the game. It becomes a problem or at least a question as to what sort of world DA is supposed to be when on one hand you have a character like Loghain, whose actions and the problems they cause are rooted in his humanity. As opposed to somebody like Meredith, who for a while seems like her outlook is grounded in her life experiences but then at the last minute that gets tossed out the window and her actions are all attributed to magical McGuffin that got next to zero explanation.

I'd much rather have Kirkwall be the ****hole of a city it is because of the ****ty people that lived and ruled there than to handwave away most of its issues because of some nebulous malevolent force hiding nearby. Or at least if certain people like Meredith were going to be magically influenced or something, let the player understand what the hell is going on so that it doesn't feel like its coming out of left field. But a big part of my issue with that sort of thing is the game's over the top visual representation of such moments but thats another issue...

[KnightofPhoenix]

Monica21 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Magic users happen to be human. The Blight didn't influence people at all.

It's kind of hard for humans, magic users or not, to get to the Golden City (or Black City) without the aid of magic. Magic caused the Blight. It was a human decision, but not possible without magic.

Magic was used as an instrument. It didn't influence them as far as we know.

And again, the blight did not influence anyone in the game itself.

[Xilizhra]

Ryzaki wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Fair enough. Now can you understand why claiming that a pro-mage position is metagaming is ridiculous?

...Uh...considering I never did that what's your point?  

Then why did you weigh into the "medievalish morality" argument in the first place?

[TEWR]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

What the hell is going on?

You know, one good thing about this thread is that it brings people together.

Ehh, I don't remember where exactly. They didn't build it for themselves, they built it for Tevinter though. It was only later converted to a Chantry.

I know the EoK talked about a mason talking about how Kirkwall was a maze and the author said it looked like Tevinter symbols, but I don't recall dwarves having anything to do with it (though that is likely considering Tevinter traded with the Dwarves and adopted a type of Proving through their trades)

But we did find that out through his Act 2 quest. Dreamers can shape the Fade. I think Marethari said as much. It could be speculated that this could thin the Veil.

Or maybe he is shaping the Fade in such a way as to purposefully influence poeple. I don't know.

Oh I know we find out they can shape the Fade. It's that the shaping can thin the Veil that I think should've been revealed if it's the case.

But, I think Somniari are just better at doing the spirits' jobs then the spirits actually are.

[Iakus]

 Personally, I don't think "Sister Nightingale" showed any tendancy to be anti-mage.  Perhaps "anti-Resolutionist".  Definitely "anti-violent-overthrow-of-the-Chantry" 

The one line I could see that might have been open to anti-mage interpretation is "The whole world is watching Kirkwall.  If it falls to magic, none of us are safe"

And in a sense, she's right.  Kirkwall has a staggeringly high number of maleficar and abominations.  People tend to react badly to cities being overrun by demons and blood magic.  If there's such a magical revolution in a major city like Kirkwall, well, we all know what happens then.

Although I am left to wonder just how much of Kirwall's history the Divine knew of ahead of time.  Or it's current events, for that matter. Did she foresee the Circle breaking?  Or was she worried about apostates?  Did she know about Meredith's deteriorating condition? (I assume the Knight Commander had been sending reports)   Clearly she knew something was about to go down, if she's offering to evacuate the Grand Cleric rather then, say, send Meredith further instructions.

In the end, this is just one more loose thread that makes the game's story seem so frustratingly incomplete.

[Xilizhra]

Lots of people love the Qunari, but we haven't been to Par Vollen either. Speaking of which, they have slavery too. And it's even worse than Tevinter's, most likely. They're known to drug the free will out of people who refuse to convert to the Qun, and literally work them to death.

Actually, that sounds rather like Fenris' situation except that Danarius would want to keep him alive. But it'd be too expensive to magically strip everyone's free will without the poison gas the qunari have; that said, I wouldn't doubt the magisters would love to get it.

But none of it really matters because it's always possible to be ahead of your society's moral curve.

[TEWR]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Magic users happen to be human. The Blight didn't influence people at all.

It's kind of hard for humans, magic users or not, to get to the Golden City (or Black City) without the aid of magic. Magic caused the Blight. It was a human decision, but not possible without magic.

Magic was used as an instrument. It didn't influence them as far as we know.

And again, the blight did not influence anyone in the game itself.

I'd say the Primeval Thaig Dwarves caused the Darkspawn.


But that's an issue for another thread.

[Ryzaki]

Rifneno wrote...

Yeah, he was very biased.

Warden: That's horrible!
Zevran: Oh? I don't think it was so bad.

In fact, he says pretty much nothing on the slavery issue. It's glossed over, because it's apparently not a big deal. We know slavery is illegal in Ferelden and Kirkwall... to the extent that you shouldn't even bother mention having absolute proof that Loghain sold Denerim citizens into slavery if you want to get the best Landsmeet approval, and that no one seems to care if Hawke has an elven slave. We know it's legal in Tevinter, Antiva, and whether they call it that or not, Qunari lands. All in all, slavery is frowned upon but it's not even nearly as hardcore evil as it is in our world. And Thedas is progressive as hell even for that, since most of our countries only outlawed slavery a few hundred years ago. The earliest I can remember is France in the 14th century. So yeah... you don't get to excuse the templars by using "different culture" morality and still condemn Danarius when his culture brought him up to think what he did was acceptable.

He says nothing more than being bought by the crows and trained as an assassin. 

...I don't condemn Danarius because what his culture. I condemn him because I believe he's a rapist creep. The same reason I condemn Alrik, Keldar and Zevran himself. 

And I'm not just using the "different culture" morality to excuse the templars I'm using public safety as well. Danarius wasn't serving the public when he decided to enslave Fenris. Not to mention Templars raping mages and turning them tranquil after their harrowing is illegal. Danarius could do whatever the hell he wanted to Fenris. The situations are NOT the same no matter what you say. 

But apparently if I accept certain morality I must accept all of them? That's a laugh.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 15 août 2011 - 04:06 .

[Ryzaki]

Xilizhra wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Fair enough. Now can you understand why claiming that a pro-mage position is metagaming is ridiculous?

...Uh...considering I never did that what's your point?  

Then why did you weigh into the "medievalish morality" argument in the first place?

 

Because I'm getting sick of the "OMG templars are evil even by Thedas standards See see!" when that's not the case in game at all. 

[Rifneno]

Monica21 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Magic users happen to be human. The Blight didn't influence people at all.

It's kind of hard for humans, magic users or not, to get to the Golden City (or Black City) without the aid of magic. Magic caused the Blight. It was a human decision, but not possible without magic.

Most of the hardcore street drugs were invented by doctors legitimately just looking to create a painkiller to ease suffering.

Let's lock up all those medical researcher bastards for what they've done to the world!

[Xilizhra]

Ryzaki wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Fair enough. Now can you understand why claiming that a pro-mage position is metagaming is ridiculous?

...Uh...considering I never did that what's your point?  

Then why did you weigh into the "medievalish morality" argument in the first place?

 

Because I'm getting sick of the "OMG templars are evil even by Thedas standards See see!" when that's not the case in game at all. 

True, they're simply evil. The standards of Thedas allow for a decent amount of it.

[phaonica]

Brockololly wrote...

Right.

There is nothing wrong with having the supernatural or magical forces at work in the game. It becomes a problem or at least a question as to what sort of world DA is supposed to be when on one hand you have a character like Loghain, whose actions and the problems they cause are rooted in his humanity. As opposed to somebody like Meredith, who for a while seems like her outlook is grounded in her life experiences but then at the last minute that gets tossed out the window and her actions are all attributed to magical McGuffin that got next to zero explanation.

I'd much rather have Kirkwall be the ****hole of a city it is because of the ****ty people that lived and ruled there than to handwave away most of its issues because of some nebulous malevolent force hiding nearby. Or at least if certain people like Meredith were going to be magically influenced or something, let the player understand what the hell is going on so that it doesn't feel like its coming out of left field. But a big part of my issue with that sort of thing is the game's over the top visual representation of such moments but thats another issue...

I agree with Brockololly and KoP that I'd rather deal with human political and societal conflicts rather than 'outside forces'.
I don't mind dealing with problems that deal with magic. What I care
about is problems that arise from and can be influenced by people making
choices. The veil is thin in Kirwall and that's why there are so many
blood mages, to me, is a weak excuse for the conflict.

Modifié par phaonica, 15 août 2011 - 04:02 .

[TEWR]

Filament wrote...

I imagine Corypheus did live and rule there.

It would help to possibly explain a few things regarding Darkspawn.

[IanPolaris]

Rifneno wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Magic users happen to be human. The Blight didn't influence people at all.

It's kind of hard for humans, magic users or not, to get to the Golden City (or Black City) without the aid of magic. Magic caused the Blight. It was a human decision, but not possible without magic.

Most of the hardcore street drugs were invented by doctors legitimately just looking to create a painkiller to ease suffering.

Let's lock up all those medical researcher bastards for what they've done to the world!

...or invented in an attempt to treat/cure real neurological problems (such as Alzheimers) (see LSD), but yeah, same same.

-Polaris

[Monica21]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Magic was used as an instrument. It didn't influence them as far as we know.

And again, the blight did not influence anyone in the game itself.

The Old Gods influenced the Magisters. Corypheus talks specifically about Dumat. They were lured into the Black City which was already black when they got there. If that's true, the took the corruption from the city and brought it back to Thedas with them. That's the magic. The humanity is "the hubris of men" that gave them the desire to go in the first place.

And what do you mean the blight didn't influence anyone in the game? There wouldn't have been a game if it weren't for the blight.

[SirGladiator]

Leliana was never anti-mage, or anti-magic. Remember, she was good friends with Wynne, and flirting with Morrigan, in addition to everything else she happily did to help the mages as part of the team in DAO. No doubt she wasn't keen on the idea of mages taking over an entire city by force, but then again who was? She never supported doing anything bad though, even to prevent that from happening. She's awesome, she was awesome in DAO, and she's still awesome in DA2. Hopefully we'll get even more awesomeness from her in DA3!

[phaonica]

Xilizhra wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Because I'm getting sick of the "OMG templars are evil even by Thedas standards See see!" when that's not the case in game at all. 

True, they're simply evil. The standards of Thedas allow for a decent amount of it.

Are you referring to templars in general, or the premise on which the Templar Order is based?

[Ryzaki]

phaonica wrote...

Brockololly wrote...

Right.

There is nothing wrong with having the supernatural or magical forces at work in the game. It becomes a problem or at least a question as to what sort of world DA is supposed to be when on one hand you have a character like Loghain, whose actions and the problems they cause are rooted in his humanity. As opposed to somebody like Meredith, who for a while seems like her outlook is grounded in her life experiences but then at the last minute that gets tossed out the window and her actions are all attributed to magical McGuffin that got next to zero explanation.

I'd much rather have Kirkwall be the ****hole of a city it is because of the ****ty people that lived and ruled there than to handwave away most of its issues because of some nebulous malevolent force hiding nearby. Or at least if certain people like Meredith were going to be magically influenced or something, let the player understand what the hell is going on so that it doesn't feel like its coming out of left field. But a big part of my issue with that sort of thing is the game's over the top visual representation of such moments but thats another issue...

I agree with Brockololly and KoP that I'd rather deal with human political and societal conflicts rather than 'outside forces'.
I don't mind dealing with problems that deal with magic. What I care
about is problems that arise from and can be influenced by people making
choices. The veil is thin in Kirwall and that's why there are so many
blood mages, to me, is a weak excuse for the conflict.

I also agree with this. The weak veil is just...ugh for a conflict starter. 

[Xilizhra]

phaonica wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Because I'm getting sick of the "OMG templars are evil even by Thedas standards See see!" when that's not the case in game at all. 

True, they're simply evil. The standards of Thedas allow for a decent amount of it.

Are you referring to templars in general, or the premise on which the Templar Order is based?

The latter moreso. The former is distressingly common. I can't imagine many avoid corruption; see the Stanford Prison Experiment.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 15 août 2011 - 04:06 .

[IanPolaris]

SirGladiator wrote...

Leliana was never anti-mage, or anti-magic. Remember, she was good friends with Wynne, and flirting with Morrigan, in addition to everything else she happily did to help the mages as part of the team in DAO. No doubt she wasn't keen on the idea of mages taking over an entire city by force, but then again who was? She never supported doing anything bad though, even to prevent that from happening. She's awesome, she was awesome in DAO, and she's still awesome in DA2. Hopefully we'll get even more awesomeness from her in DA3!

That's just it.  In DAO there wasn't a hint of Lelianna having any harsh feelings towards magic per se (now evil users of magic were another matter, but the same could be said for evil people in general as Lels saw it), and indeed her views on magic (per her converstaions with Wynne, Morrigan, Jowan, and even the Captive Bloodmage seemed heretical at least with the Chantry I am familiar with (and Alistair is familiar with).  That Lelianna just doesn't seem to jibe with the agent coldly contemplating the razing of an entire city via exalted march "lest it fall to magic".  That AFAICT is how this entire topic got started.

-Polaris