968 réponses à ce sujet

[Shadow Fox]

Ryzaki wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Fair enough. Now can you understand why claiming that a pro-mage position is metagaming is ridiculous?

...Uh...considering I never did that what's your point?  

Yeah never said that




I don't care about ethier side they're both corrupt I just sided with the Templars because I prefered the ending ,The only reason I posted how the Templars aren't complete monsters is because SOME people on here where saying that players who sided with the Templars condone murder and rape and  somehow support ****s just because we chose a path in a damned VIDEO GAME!****ing morons!

[hoorayforicecream]

Xilizhra wrote...

True, they're simply evil. The standards of Thedas allow for a decent amount of it.

Making absolute, sweeping generalizations about an entire group of people makes me laugh.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Monica21 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Magic was used as an instrument. It didn't influence them as far as we know.

And again, the blight did not influence anyone in the game itself.

The Old Gods influenced the Magisters. Corypheus talks specifically about Dumat. They were lured into the Black City which was already black when they got there. If that's true, the took the corruption from the city and brought it back to Thedas with them. That's the magic. The humanity is "the hubris of men" that gave them the desire to go in the first place.

And what do you mean the blight didn't influence anyone in the game? There wouldn't have been a game if it weren't for the blight.

Another reason why Legacy is not interesting me. In Origins, I always looked at it as a myth / thing in the past that is not really important and is in the bg. I preferred it to be ambiguous and to focus on other things.

As in the blight didn't influence people's thoughts and actions. People reacted to it. But that is not the same as being influenced by it. Loghain was not influenced by the blight.

[TEWR]

Monica21 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Magic was used as an instrument. It didn't influence them as far as we know.

And again, the blight did not influence anyone in the game itself.

The Old Gods influenced the Magisters. Corypheus talks specifically about Dumat. They were lured into the Black City which was already black when they got there. If that's true, the took the corruption from the city and brought it back to Thedas with them. That's the magic. The humanity is "the hubris of men" that gave them the desire to go in the first place.

And what do you mean the blight didn't influence anyone in the game? There wouldn't have been a game if it weren't for the blight.

While I can't speak for KoP's use of the word influence, when I use it I mean outright control. The Magisters invaded of their own volition. It was their choice, because they desired the power of the gods.

It was a characteristic of humanity that drove them to do it.

[Xilizhra]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

True, they're simply evil. The standards of Thedas allow for a decent amount of it.

Making absolute, sweeping generalizations about an entire group of people makes me laugh.

Very well, I'll clarify. The principles on which the Templar Order was founded and frequently operates are evil.

[TEWR]

Filament wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I know the EoK talked about a mason talking about how Kirkwall was a maze and the author said it looked like Tevinter symbols, but I don't recall dwarves having anything to do with it (though that is likely considering Tevinter traded with the Dwarves and adopted a type of Proving through their trades)

From what I can tell scraping around... it was mentioned in one of the loading screen tips?

If it was, then I couldn't read it because my screen was too bright and made the words too small

[Monica21]

IanPolaris wrote...

SirGladiator wrote...

Leliana was never anti-mage, or anti-magic. Remember, she was good friends with Wynne, and flirting with Morrigan, in addition to everything else she happily did to help the mages as part of the team in DAO. No doubt she wasn't keen on the idea of mages taking over an entire city by force, but then again who was? She never supported doing anything bad though, even to prevent that from happening. She's awesome, she was awesome in DAO, and she's still awesome in DA2. Hopefully we'll get even more awesomeness from her in DA3!

That's just it.  In DAO there wasn't a hint of Lelianna having any harsh feelings towards magic per se (now evil users of magic were another matter, but the same could be said for evil people in general as Lels saw it), and indeed her views on magic (per her converstaions with Wynne, Morrigan, Jowan, and even the Captive Bloodmage seemed heretical at least with the Chantry I am familiar with (and Alistair is familiar with).  That Lelianna just doesn't seem to jibe with the agent coldly contemplating the razing of an entire city via exalted march "lest it fall to magic".  That AFAICT is how this entire topic got started.

-Polaris

Yeah, I really don't understand this topic. Leliana's a bard and therefore a spy. I don't see how a few lines of dialogue, which we don't even know are true, are now suddenly defining her character.

[Herr Uhl]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Filament wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I know the EoK talked about a mason talking about how Kirkwall was a maze and the author said it looked like Tevinter symbols, but I don't recall dwarves having anything to do with it (though that is likely considering Tevinter traded with the Dwarves and adopted a type of Proving through their trades)

From what I can tell scraping around... it was mentioned in one of the loading screen tips?

If it was, then I couldn't read it because my screen was too bright and made the words too small

Does it matter if dwarves were contracted to build in Kirkwall or not?

[IanPolaris]

Monica21 wrote...
 The humanity is "the hubris of men" that gave them the desire to go in the first place.

I wanted to respond to just this sentence.  Having just played Legacy this afternoon I don't buy it.  The Chantry Dogma is that it's the pride of men (evil blood magicians to add extra spice) that caused the Golden City to blacken, the blight to begin, and (sarcasm) for dogs to start living with cats, rain frogs, and all the other world's ills (/sarcasm).

However, we now know that DUMAT sent his followers there.  That means the blight isn't the fault of man at all nor of magic.  It's the fault of the Old Gods, specifically Dumat.  Period.

IMHO that makes the "original sin" Chantry Dogma against mages a lot less potent.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Monica21 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

SirGladiator wrote...

Leliana was never anti-mage, or anti-magic. Remember, she was good friends with Wynne, and flirting with Morrigan, in addition to everything else she happily did to help the mages as part of the team in DAO. No doubt she wasn't keen on the idea of mages taking over an entire city by force, but then again who was? She never supported doing anything bad though, even to prevent that from happening. She's awesome, she was awesome in DAO, and she's still awesome in DA2. Hopefully we'll get even more awesomeness from her in DA3!

That's just it.  In DAO there wasn't a hint of Lelianna having any harsh feelings towards magic per se (now evil users of magic were another matter, but the same could be said for evil people in general as Lels saw it), and indeed her views on magic (per her converstaions with Wynne, Morrigan, Jowan, and even the Captive Bloodmage seemed heretical at least with the Chantry I am familiar with (and Alistair is familiar with).  That Lelianna just doesn't seem to jibe with the agent coldly contemplating the razing of an entire city via exalted march "lest it fall to magic".  That AFAICT is how this entire topic got started.

-Polaris

Yeah, I really don't understand this topic. Leliana's a bard and therefore a spy. I don't see how a few lines of dialogue, which we don't even know are true, are now suddenly defining her character.

It seems so out of character for her (at least for a number of us...I daresay a lot of us), and it makes us wonder if the Lelianna in DAO was "real" at all or just another ruse.  That's upsetting for some.

-Polaris

[TEWR]

Herr Uhl wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Filament wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I know the EoK talked about a mason talking about how Kirkwall was a maze and the author said it looked like Tevinter symbols, but I don't recall dwarves having anything to do with it (though that is likely considering Tevinter traded with the Dwarves and adopted a type of Proving through their trades)

From what I can tell scraping around... it was mentioned in one of the loading screen tips?

If it was, then I couldn't read it because my screen was too bright and made the words too small

Does it matter if dwarves were contracted to build in Kirkwall or not?

Not sure I understand your question

[Monica21]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Another reason why Legacy is not interesting me. In Origins, I always looked at it as a myth / thing in the past that is not really important and is in the bg. I preferred it to be ambiguous and to focus on other things.

Fair enough.

As in the blight didn't influence people's thoughts and actions. People reacted to it. But that is not the same as being influenced by it. Loghain was not influenced by the blight.

Disagree. Loghain was influenced by the Blight, perhaps more than anyone else, because of Flemeth's prophecy. It couldn't be a Blight because then Flemeth would be correct.

[phaonica]

Xilizhra wrote...

The latter moreso. The former is distressingly common. I can't imagine many avoid corruption; see the Stanford Prison Experiment.

If you're implying that people with power tend to abuse it, then you could use exactly the same argument against free mages.

[TEWR]

IanPolaris wrote...

Monica21 wrote...
 The humanity is "the hubris of men" that gave them the desire to go in the first place.

I wanted to respond to just this sentence.  Having just played Legacy this afternoon I don't buy it.  The Chantry Dogma is that it's the pride of men (evil blood magicians to add extra spice) that caused the Golden City to blacken, the blight to begin, and (sarcasm) for dogs to start living with cats, rain frogs, and all the other world's ills (/sarcasm).

However, we now know that DUMAT sent his followers there.  That means the blight isn't the fault of man at all nor of magic.  It's the fault of the Old Gods, specifically Dumat.  Period.

IMHO that makes the "original sin" Chantry Dogma against mages a lot less potent.

-Polaris

parts of the Chant did say Dumat goaded them, while others contradicted it.

[Xilizhra]

phaonica wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The latter moreso. The former is distressingly common. I can't imagine many avoid corruption; see the Stanford Prison Experiment.

If you're implying that people with power tend to abuse it, then you could use exactly the same argument against free mages.

Slight difference. Mages have personal power, while templars have institutional power. Institutional power is, I believe, more inherently likely to be abused.

[Herr Uhl]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Does it matter if dwarves were contracted to build in Kirkwall or not?

Not sure I understand your question

Is it just academic interest or would that actually make a difference to the original presumption that the chantry building was built before the founding of the chantry?

Edit: That it predates the chantry being founded is known. Does the people who were contracted to build it make a difference to this case.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 15 août 2011 - 04:15 .

[phaonica]

Monica21 wrote...

Disagree. Loghain was influenced by the Blight, perhaps more than anyone else, because of Flemeth's prophecy. It couldn't be a Blight because then Flemeth would be correct.

Influenced by the encroaching Blight, yes, but he wasn't being mind-controlled by the Archdemon. The responsibilty of his actions still fell on him, unlike Bartrand or Meredith who were not in direct control of their actions.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Monica21 wrote...
Disagree. Loghain was influenced by the Blight, perhaps more than anyone else, because of Flemeth's prophecy. It couldn't be a Blight because then Flemeth would be correct.

In which case, he was influenced by Flemeth's prophecy (manipulation more likely), due to his love for Maric and inability to believe he can ever betray him, and not the blight.

If Flemeth said that Loghain seeing a frog meant that he will betray Maric, then he would have said that this is not a frog he's seeing but a toad.

That doesn't mean the frog influenced him.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 15 août 2011 - 04:16 .

[hoorayforicecream]

Xilizhra wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

True, they're simply evil. The standards of Thedas allow for a decent amount of it.

Making absolute, sweeping generalizations about an entire group of people makes me laugh.

Very well, I'll clarify. The principles on which the Templar Order was founded and frequently operates are evil.

It depends on which principles you're talking about. There are those I think are not evil at all.

#1. Protect the outside world from abominations and demons
#2. Protect the mages from the outside world

These seem perfectly reasonable to me. The biggest issue I have is that the templars (like the mages) are people, and people are fallible, ambitious, and can be good, bad, or both.

Bad apples tend to spoil the whole bunch. If you add a dollop of feces to a barrel of good wine, you have a barrel of feces. If you add a dollop of good wine to a barrel of feces, you still have a barrel of feces.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

They affect us subtly. They impose limitations on us that we attempt to overcome or deal with. They become factors in our thinking. They don't influence us in such a fashion (as in bad weather doesn't turn us into lunatics).

I do not care for magic being overblown like that. Low fantasy subdues it and focuses more on the human aspect. I though DA was supposed to lean towards low fantasy.  

Thank you. This is pretty much my thoughts.

Dragon Age is the first setting where my canon was a mage. In other fantasy settings, I'm almost always playings rogues as canons. But not in this case. Why? Because Origins was the first game where the concept of magic was original and interesting. In other settings, magic tends to be overdone, with even peasants riding magic carpets or unicorns to the market to buy powerful magic vegatables or some other crap. Anyone can be a mage, and wizards almost have the power of gods.

Not so in Thedas, where magic is a blessing and a curse to people born with it. The social/political aspects of mages and their existance was new and very interesting, bnecause it was complicated. And very human. The Fade as a near physical manifestation of the human colelctive unconcious, the idea of demons as being entities that reflect the darker aspects of the human psyche, as opposed to beings of "pure evil" that just want to take over the world, for no other reason than "being evil".

The magic, supernatural, and metaphysics of Dragon Age were so unique and interesting because they were so heavily bound in human nature and the human condition, not seperate, inhuman, and simple agencies that take the human aspect out of everything, good or ill.

Magic and the supernatural are interesting, and I like seeing how they influence people. The mage/templar conflict was ever so human a concept in Origins, you needed no super evil entity mind controlling people to behave badly, they did so on their own just fine without outside help.

[Monica21]

IanPolaris wrote...
I wanted to respond to just this sentence.  Having just played Legacy this afternoon I don't buy it.  The Chantry Dogma is that it's the pride of men (evil blood magicians to add extra spice) that caused the Golden City to blacken, the blight to begin, and (sarcasm) for dogs to start living with cats, rain frogs, and all the other world's ills (/sarcasm).

However, we now know that DUMAT sent his followers there.  That means the blight isn't the fault of man at all nor of magic.  It's the fault of the Old Gods, specifically Dumat.  Period.

IMHO that makes the "original sin" Chantry Dogma against mages a lot less potent.

-Polaris

And what was Dumat preying on to get them to go? Pride, a very human failing.

If there were no magic then there would be no way to get to the city, therefore no one would have gone, therefore they wouldn't have brought the corruption back, therefore there would be no Blight. There are several reasons why the Blight and corruption exist and magic is one of them.

[IanPolaris]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Monica21 wrote...
 The humanity is "the hubris of men" that gave them the desire to go in the first place.

I wanted to respond to just this sentence.  Having just played Legacy this afternoon I don't buy it.  The Chantry Dogma is that it's the pride of men (evil blood magicians to add extra spice) that caused the Golden City to blacken, the blight to begin, and (sarcasm) for dogs to start living with cats, rain frogs, and all the other world's ills (/sarcasm).

However, we now know that DUMAT sent his followers there.  That means the blight isn't the fault of man at all nor of magic.  It's the fault of the Old Gods, specifically Dumat.  Period.

IMHO that makes the "original sin" Chantry Dogma against mages a lot less potent.

-Polaris

parts of the Chant did say Dumat goaded them, while others contradicted it.

Yeah, but if you play Legacy, Corphyeus (sp?) [who has no reason and is too arrogant to lie] says it was a lot more than that.  Dumat didn't goad them.  He actually helped them do it and it was his command and his idea (to take back the power of the gods....or so the magisters were led to believe).  Personally I think there was never a Golden City and Dumat knew exactly what would happen...and wanted to eliminate all humanity...cruelly.

-Polaris

[LobselVith8]

IanPolaris wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

What the hell is going on?

The discussion about Leliana's attitude towards mages in "Faith" has expanded to discuss the dichotomy between the mages and the templars in the Dragon Age universe.

Is that such a suprise?  After all, the Mage vs Templar conflict is (supposed to be) central to DA2 after all, and I rather strongly suspect that your view of the DA2 "Sister Nightengale" as Anti-Mage depends on how sypathetic you were towards the mages to start with.

-Polaris

It's supposed to be central to the storyline in Dragon Age 2, but the mage antagonists tend to be portrayed as being stupid and crazy, like Decimus, Tarohne, Grace, Endgame Orsino, and we get characters that seem to be providing dialogue that can be viewed as anti-mage, like Leliana as Sister Nightingale, even when it seems contradictory to what she said multiple times in Origins about mages and magic. I'm not sure how the storyline of Dragon Age 2 is supposed to be addressing the schism between mages and templars when the portrayals are more than a little ridiculous.