Guest_Puddi III_*
Herr Uhl wrote...
Edit: That it predates the chantry being founded is known. Does the people who were contracted to build it make a difference to this case.
Bad apples are at their worst when they're selected for entry into an army that holds the power of life and death over another group. The Order attracts and breeds corruption, and you can see the results anywhere they hold power.hoorayforicecream wrote...
Xilizhra wrote...
Very well, I'll clarify. The principles on which the Templar Order was founded and frequently operates are evil.hoorayforicecream wrote...
Xilizhra wrote...
True, they're simply evil. The standards of Thedas allow for a decent amount of it.
Making absolute, sweeping generalizations about an entire group of people makes me laugh.
It depends on which principles you're talking about. There are those I think are not evil at all.
#1. Protect the outside world from abominations and demons
#2. Protect the mages from the outside world
These seem perfectly reasonable to me. The biggest issue I have is that the templars (like the mages) are people, and people are fallible, ambitious, and can be good, bad, or both.
Bad apples tend to spoil the whole bunch. If you add a dollop of feces to a barrel of good wine, you have a barrel of feces. If you add a dollop of good wine to a barrel of feces, you still have a barrel of feces.
IanPolaris wrote...
The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
IanPolaris wrote...
Monica21 wrote...
The humanity is "the hubris of men" that gave them the desire to go in the first place.
I wanted to respond to just this sentence. Having just played Legacy this afternoon I don't buy it. The Chantry Dogma is that it's the pride of men (evil blood magicians to add extra spice) that caused the Golden City to blacken, the blight to begin, and (sarcasm) for dogs to start living with cats, rain frogs, and all the other world's ills (/sarcasm).
However, we now know that DUMAT sent his followers there. That means the blight isn't the fault of man at all nor of magic. It's the fault of the Old Gods, specifically Dumat. Period.
IMHO that makes the "original sin" Chantry Dogma against mages a lot less potent.
-Polaris
parts of the Chant did say Dumat goaded them, while others contradicted it.
Yeah, but if you play Legacy, Corphyeus (sp?) [who has no reason and is too arrogant to lie] says it was a lot more than that. Dumat didn't goad them. He actually helped them do it and it was his command and his idea (to take back the power of the gods....or so the magisters were led to believe). Personally I think there was never a Golden City and Dumat knew exactly what would happen...and wanted to eliminate all humanity...cruelly.
-Polaris
Monica21 wrote...
And what was Dumat preying on to get them to go? Pride, a very human failing.IanPolaris wrote...
I wanted to respond to just this sentence. Having just played Legacy this afternoon I don't buy it. The Chantry Dogma is that it's the pride of men (evil blood magicians to add extra spice) that caused the Golden City to blacken, the blight to begin, and (sarcasm) for dogs to start living with cats, rain frogs, and all the other world's ills (/sarcasm).
However, we now know that DUMAT sent his followers there. That means the blight isn't the fault of man at all nor of magic. It's the fault of the Old Gods, specifically Dumat. Period.
IMHO that makes the "original sin" Chantry Dogma against mages a lot less potent.
-Polaris
If there were no magic then there would be no way to get to the city, therefore no one would have gone, therefore they wouldn't have brought the corruption back, therefore there would be no Blight. There are several reasons why the Blight and corruption exist and magic is one of them.
Xilizhra wrote...
Slight difference. Mages have personal power, while templars have institutional power. Institutional power is, I believe, more inherently likely to be abused.
Monica21 wrote...
And what was Dumat preying on to get them to go? Pride, a very human failing.IanPolaris wrote...
I wanted to respond to just this sentence. Having just played Legacy this afternoon I don't buy it. The Chantry Dogma is that it's the pride of men (evil blood magicians to add extra spice) that caused the Golden City to blacken, the blight to begin, and (sarcasm) for dogs to start living with cats, rain frogs, and all the other world's ills (/sarcasm).
However, we now know that DUMAT sent his followers there. That means the blight isn't the fault of man at all nor of magic. It's the fault of the Old Gods, specifically Dumat. Period.
IMHO that makes the "original sin" Chantry Dogma against mages a lot less potent.
-Polaris
If there were no magic then there would be no way to get to the city, therefore no one would have gone, therefore they wouldn't have brought the corruption back, therefore there would be no Blight. There are several reasons why the Blight and corruption exist and magic is one of them.
We're not talking about a frog, we're talking about the Blight, which you said didn't influence Loghain at all. I disagree. And I'm not talking about mind control via the Archdemon. It doesn't need to be that blatant. I'm saying that the Blight very clearly affected decisions and people's lives in a way that had nothing to do with magic and Loghain's was one of them.KnightofPhoenix wrote...
In which case, he was influenced by Flemeth's prophecy (manipulation more likely), due to his love for Maric and inability to believe he can ever betray him, and not the blight.
If Flemeth said that Loghain seeing a frog meant that he will betray Maric, then he would have said that this is not a frog he's seeing but a toad.
That doesn't mean the frog influenced him.
It's even funnier that when the same is applied to mages some of these people get ready to burst a damn blood vessal over it.hoorayforicecream wrote...
Xilizhra wrote...
True, they're simply evil. The standards of Thedas allow for a decent amount of it.
Making absolute, sweeping generalizations about an entire group of people makes me laugh.
Herr Uhl wrote...
The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Herr Uhl wrote...
Does it matter if dwarves were contracted to build in Kirkwall or not?
Not sure I understand your question
Is it just academic interest or would that actually make a difference to the original presumption that the chantry building was built before the founding of the chantry?
Edit: That it predates the chantry being founded is known. Does the people who were contracted to build it make a difference to this case.
David Gaider wrote...
IanPolaris wrote...
DG is indeed no obligated to tell us if our interpretation of Lelianna as "anti-mage" is correct or not, but if he's not willing to spill the beans, then he's really not entitled to tell us that we're wrong either. DG seems to me to be trying to have it both ways. He's trying to tell a whole lot of us (it's not just me that's reading the new Lelianna as anti-mage and an unwelcome change from DAO by a long chalk) that we're "wrong" without actually having to say whether she is or isn't anti-mage.
That doesn't fly. If DG isn't willing to clarify this, then with all due respect he should butt out.
Ha.
Try to caution some people who are leaping to conclusions and treating their conclusions as facts (and big surprise to see IanPolaris at the middle of that) and you get people calling you "mealy-mouthed" or various other insults. Apparently I should either explain everything in detail (because that couldn't possibly be further misinterpreted) or just shut up and get the hell out of the forums? Charming.
As interesting as all this is, I think some folks here need to tone down the rhetoric or they'll face some bans-- permanent this time, for those who have been banned before. If you can't discuss the topic without working yourself up into a frenzy, I suggest avoiding it.
No. The position of "mage" wouldn't be a position with authority over other beings. You'd have magical powers, but otherwise be an ordinary citizen.phaonica wrote...
Xilizhra wrote...
Slight difference. Mages have personal power, while templars have institutional power. Institutional power is, I believe, more inherently likely to be abused.
How do you mean, institutional? If you mean supported by society, once mage freedom was supported by society, would it not then become institutional?
Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...
It's even funnier that when the same is applied to mages some of these people get ready to burst a damn blood vessal over it.hoorayforicecream wrote...
Xilizhra wrote...
True, they're simply evil. The standards of Thedas allow for a decent amount of it.
Making absolute, sweeping generalizations about an entire group of people makes me laugh.
Very true.
Xilizhra wrote...
Bad apples are at their worst when they're selected for entry into an army that holds the power of life and death over another group. The Order attracts and breeds corruption, and you can see the results anywhere they hold power.hoorayforicecream wrote...
Xilizhra wrote...
Very well, I'll clarify. The principles on which the Templar Order was founded and frequently operates are evil.hoorayforicecream wrote...
Xilizhra wrote...
True, they're simply evil. The standards of Thedas allow for a decent amount of it.
Making absolute, sweeping generalizations about an entire group of people makes me laugh.
It depends on which principles you're talking about. There are those I think are not evil at all.
#1. Protect the outside world from abominations and demons
#2. Protect the mages from the outside world
These seem perfectly reasonable to me. The biggest issue I have is that the templars (like the mages) are people, and people are fallible, ambitious, and can be good, bad, or both.
Bad apples tend to spoil the whole bunch. If you add a dollop of feces to a barrel of good wine, you have a barrel of feces. If you add a dollop of good wine to a barrel of feces, you still have a barrel of feces.
phaonica wrote...
Xilizhra wrote...
Slight difference. Mages have personal power, while templars have institutional power. Institutional power is, I believe, more inherently likely to be abused.
How do you mean, institutional? If you mean supported by society, once mage freedom was supported by society, would it not then become institutional?
You don't get to blame everything on Dumat. Humans agreed to go.IanPolaris wrote...
And Andraste didn't use "Pride" to influence her followers? Not likely! In fact human failings have been used by institutional leaders both in real life and in fiction throughout history. However, if you do the final scene in Legacy, it seems clear that it was DUMAT that was the driving and deciding factor to "Assault the Golden CIty" and thus the primary responsibility is Dumat's (and I strongly suspect that Dumat knew exactly what would happen).
-Polaris
"Mages" aren't a unified organization.Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...
It's even funnier that when the same is applied to mages some of these people get ready to burst a damn blood vessal over it.hoorayforicecream wrote...
Xilizhra wrote...
True, they're simply evil. The standards of Thedas allow for a decent amount of it.
Making absolute, sweeping generalizations about an entire group of people makes me laugh.
Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...
It's even funnier that when the same is applied to mages some of these people get ready to burst a damn blood vessal over it.hoorayforicecream wrote...
Xilizhra wrote...
True, they're simply evil. The standards of Thedas allow for a decent amount of it.
Making absolute, sweeping generalizations about an entire group of people makes me laugh.
Monica21 wrote...
We're not talking about a frog, we're talking about the Blight, which you said didn't influence Loghain at all. I disagree. And I'm not talking about mind control via the Archdemon. It doesn't need to be that blatant. I'm saying that the Blight very clearly affected decisions and people's lives in a way that had nothing to do with magic and Loghain's was one of them.KnightofPhoenix wrote...
In which case, he was influenced by Flemeth's prophecy (manipulation more likely), due to his love for Maric and inability to believe he can ever betray him, and not the blight.
If Flemeth said that Loghain seeing a frog meant that he will betray Maric, then he would have said that this is not a frog he's seeing but a toad.
That doesn't mean the frog influenced him.
Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 15 août 2011 - 04:25 .
Xilizhra wrote...
Bad apples are at their worst when they're selected for entry into an army that holds the power of life and death over another group. The Order attracts and breeds corruption, and you can see the results anywhere they hold power.
The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
The biggest problem with the Templars is that they recruit people for religious zeal first and consider a moral compass a secondary concern.
Xilizhra wrote...
"Mages" aren't a unified organization.
Modifié par Dave of Canada, 15 août 2011 - 04:24 .
Monica21 wrote...
You don't get to blame everything on Dumat. Humans agreed to go.IanPolaris wrote...
And Andraste didn't use "Pride" to influence her followers? Not likely! In fact human failings have been used by institutional leaders both in real life and in fiction throughout history. However, if you do the final scene in Legacy, it seems clear that it was DUMAT that was the driving and deciding factor to "Assault the Golden CIty" and thus the primary responsibility is Dumat's (and I strongly suspect that Dumat knew exactly what would happen).
-Polaris
Gotcha. So, what were we originally talking about?KnightofPhoenix wrote...
That is not how I am using the word. When I say "influence", I am saying the blight didn't go into Loghain's head and influenced his thoughts and caused him to do what he did. He reacted to it and was affected by it, but was not influenced by it at all. The Blight didn't go into anyone's head and cause them to do what they do, except ghouls who thankfully were not overblown.
That's what I mean when I say "influence". Perhaps I need to use another words.
The nobility, yes, as it's another entrenched power structure based on birth. Government as a whole, less so, but the current form is so badly flawed that one could almost say yes. I would say that the nobles need to be dealt with, and so does the human > elf power structure, but the current war and most of the discussion is about mages.hoorayforicecream wrote...
Xilizhra wrote...
Bad apples are at their worst when they're selected for entry into an army that holds the power of life and death over another group. The Order attracts and breeds corruption, and you can see the results anywhere they hold power.
One could say the same about any apostate that lives near a group of people.
Any situation where power is involved, be it the Order, the nobility, or the government is the same. The templars are tasked with governing the circle. The nobles are tasked with governing the peasantry. The government is tasked with governing the nation. Each holds life and death power over their charges, and each is just as ripe for corruption.
Would you say that the founding principles of the nobility and government are also evil?
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