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[TEWR]

Ryzaki wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
The biggest problem with the Templars is that they recruit people for religious zeal first and consider a moral compass a secondary concern.

That and the fact that they're run by a religious organization with far far too much power. 

Templars should be made of sensible people, moral and protective but willing to kill their charges if it's necessary. It's a tall order true but it's what should be looked for. 

Not slimeballs like Alrik or paranoids like Meredith. 

Agreed. The Chantry just wants political influence everywhere, wants to control mages everywhere, and eliminate anyone with a different set of beliefs. I don't buy into their whole "Sing the Chant and the Maker will return!" schtick. Oh sure, some poor sods may earnestly believe it (Burkel), but I doubt that is what the real agenda of the Chantry is about.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Monica21 wrote...
Gotcha. So, what were we originally talking about?

I have no idea. 

[Herr Uhl]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

That is not how I am using the word. When I say "influence", I am saying the blight didn't go into Loghain's head and influenced his thoughts and caused him to do what he did. He reacted to it and was affected by it, but was not influenced by it at all. The Blight didn't go into anyone's head and cause them to do what they do, except ghouls who thankfully were not overblown.

That's what I mean when I say "influence". Perhaps I need to use another words.

We don't know if he actually goes into peoples heads and cause them to do things. Being in their dreams is not being in their minds however, and roaming the fade is something you'd presume him to do. And people have done strange things because of dreams in the real world.

I'd suggest using control instead of influence.

[IanPolaris]

Monica21 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
That is not how I am using the word. When I say "influence", I am saying the blight didn't go into Loghain's head and influenced his thoughts and caused him to do what he did. He reacted to it and was affected by it, but was not influenced by it at all. The Blight didn't go into anyone's head and cause them to do what they do, except ghouls who thankfully were not overblown.

That's what I mean when I say "influence". Perhaps I need to use another words.

Gotcha. So, what were we originally talking about? 

It was really an off-topic observation of my own.  I was simply noting that since the "Assault of the Golden City" seemed to be organized, led, and made possible by Dumat first and last, it puts a hole in the idea that it was the greed, pride and arrogance of human bloodmagic that caused the blight.  I will conceed they permitted Dumat to gain the followers he did, but it was Dumat not humanity that bears primary (not sole) responsibility for the blights and thus the Chantry owes mages and Ancient Tevinter something of an apology (not that that will ever happen of course).

-Polaris

[hoorayforicecream]

Ryzaki wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
The biggest problem with the Templars is that they recruit people for religious zeal first and consider a moral compass a secondary concern.

That and the fact that they're run by a religious organization with far far too much power. 

Templars should be made of sensible people, moral and protective but willing to kill their charges if it's necessary. It's a tall order true but it's what should be looked for. 

Not slimeballs like Alrik or paranoids like Meredith. 

I get the feeling that most smart people avoid joining the Templars. I mean... really, the best you can hope for as a Templar is people hating you. If you're doing your job well, you're disliked because people see you as a bother and treat you with suspicion. If people are thrilled you've arrived, it's because there are abominations or maleficar around, and they've been up to no good. It's lose/lose.

[Macropodmum]

Filament wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Wait... where was that mentioned? When was it said Dwarves built Kirkwall?

Ehh, I don't remember where exactly. They didn't build it for themselves, they built it for Tevinter though. It was only later converted to a Chantry.

I remember reading this somewhere also.  Quick google search revealed not only that there is a real place named Kirkwall, but this quote from the wiki "Although the Chantry and the Keep are visible from most of the city it is easy to get lost in the maze of dwarven courtyards"

[Erani]

IanPolaris wrote...

Yeah, but if you play Legacy, Corphyeus (sp?) [who has no reason and is too arrogant to lie] says it was a lot more than that.  Dumat didn't goad them.  He actually helped them do it and it was his command and his idea (to take back the power of the gods....or so the magisters were led to believe).  Personally I think there was never a Golden City and Dumat knew exactly what would happen...and wanted to eliminate all humanity...cruelly.

-Polaris

I, as well. Whatever corruption (taint) was sealed in this place, the "Golden" city, is what Dumat wanted to unleash on humanity. Perhaps he couldn't do it him(it)self or didn't want to be bothered. When Cory said "..he promised us...he said..." it looked as though the magisters didn't really know what they were doing or where they were going which leads me to believe that Dumat was the one to teach them how to physically enter the Fade. It's unlikely the Magisters could have worked out the ritual (how much lyrium, blood) it took to go ______ unknown destination. 

Also, there must be a connection between Arlathan and the "Black City"/taint because if the eluvians were used to communicate (teleport) within Arlathan, then why is the taint contained inside them?

[Monica21]

IanPolaris wrote...
I'm not.  However, Dumat was their god and their leader.  His is the primary resposibility...just as the Divine bears the primary responsibility for the crimes done by the Exalted Marches (see Nuremberg).  That's especially true if his human followers were tricked into it which seems very, very likely if I understood the legacy epilog correctly.

-Polaris

Even if the Magister Lords were tricked, how do you get a powerful mage to do the unthinkable? You appeal to his pride. And if you're making a comparison to Nuremburg, then Dumat is Hitler and the Magisters were people like Goering and Hess, but I think it's a poor comparison.

[Ryzaki]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Agreed. The Chantry just wants political influence everywhere, wants to control mages everywhere, and eliminate anyone with a different set of beliefs. I don't buy into their whole "Sing the Chant and the Maker will return!" schtick. Oh sure, some poor sods may earnestly believe it (Burkel), but I doubt that is what the real agenda of the Chantry is about.

Which is selfish. I have no problems taking out the Chantry. I just want the templars and circles intact (and to change into something less oppressive and restrictive). 

And bleh "He abandoned us but if we're really good he'll come back!" sounds like a kid waiting for his/her deadbeat dad to come back after he skipped out. It's just not happening. 

Chantry...I'm not sure what they want other than money, control and power. I'd hope it was something more altrustic (they do some good deeds) but I doubt it. 

[CrimsonZephyr]

phaonica wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The latter moreso. The former is distressingly common. I can't imagine many avoid corruption; see the Stanford Prison Experiment.

If you're implying that people with power tend to abuse it, then you could use exactly the same argument against free mages.

Depends what one means by free.

Surely, freedom shouldn't equal anarchy with no safeguards. That's one of the central fallacies of human civilization. That order equals tyranny and that freedom equals anarchy.

Sure, mages with no safeguards on their behavior will eventually abuse their freedom.

But piling all of them in one gloomy place with no rights to property, marriage (unless one is given a very special dispensation), children, etc., guarded by helmeted mooks recruited for religious fervor first and martial prowess second, where the Chantry preaches about all the evils of blood magic but none of the good of regular magic, thereby making magic a black box that is often mistaken for being always evil. And where authority figures have frighteningly absolute authority that is easy to abuse. It breeds misconceptions about mages, and resentment in mages. Sure, some mages eventually accept it as the way things are, but there are enough that find it a dehumanizing existence for it to start to lose viability. Forgoing big changes in favor of small changes, a possibility would be in having more mages participate in the policing of mages. Have the mages take an active responsibility in enforcing the law. That's a small change, but a meaningful change. Change doesn't have to go from a mage being gang-raped by templars to a mage sacrificing an entire village for a blood magic ritual.

One could say that freer mages would create public backlash, rioting, lynching, and mob violence. And that's true. A maligned minority can breed that kind of contempt in the majority, and one could use that argument to say that they can never live together. But if mages enter society, they will never become a part of society. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy and only enacted because change hurts. But stagnation benefits no one.

Modifié par CrimsonZephyr, 15 août 2011 - 04:32 .

[IanPolaris]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
The biggest problem with the Templars is that they recruit people for religious zeal first and consider a moral compass a secondary concern.

That and the fact that they're run by a religious organization with far far too much power. 

Templars should be made of sensible people, moral and protective but willing to kill their charges if it's necessary. It's a tall order true but it's what should be looked for. 

Not slimeballs like Alrik or paranoids like Meredith. 

I get the feeling that most smart people avoid joining the Templars. I mean... really, the best you can hope for as a Templar is people hating you. If you're doing your job well, you're disliked because people see you as a bother and treat you with suspicion. If people are thrilled you've arrived, it's because there are abominations or maleficar around, and they've been up to no good. It's lose/lose.

Actually per Knight Captain Cullen, that isn't true.  According to him (at least in Kirkwall), being a Templar was a badge of honor in the not too distant past and Templars were regarded as heros or at least "good guys" by the commoners...and he complains this is no longer so.

-Polaris

[Dave of Canada]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

I get the feeling that most smart people avoid joining the Templars. I mean... really, the best you can hope for as a Templar is people hating you. If you're doing your job well, you're disliked because people see you as a bother and treat you with suspicion. If people are thrilled you've arrived, it's because there are abominations or maleficar around, and they've been up to no good. It's lose/lose.

In addition to having to live in the Circles (if they aren't stationed at a Chantry), usually located quite far away from civilization and possibly one of the most dangerous environments for people of their job. Ignoring their intense training, religious teachings, forced drug use and mind addled state when they're older.

Edit: Hell, I can't imagine it being too great for Templar to marry and being sent off to a Circle.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 15 août 2011 - 04:32 .

[hoorayforicecream]

Xilizhra wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Bad apples are at their worst when they're selected for entry into an army that holds the power of life and death over another group. The Order attracts and breeds corruption, and you can see the results anywhere they hold power.

One could say the same about any apostate that lives near a group of people.

Any situation where power is involved, be it the Order, the nobility, or the government is the same. The templars are tasked with governing the circle. The nobles are tasked with governing the peasantry. The government is tasked with governing the nation. Each holds life and death power over their charges, and each is just as ripe for corruption.

Would you say that the founding principles of the nobility and government are also evil?

The nobility, yes, as it's another entrenched power structure based on birth. Government as a whole, less so, but the current form is so badly flawed that one could almost say yes. I would say that the nobles need to be dealt with, and so does the human > elf power structure, but the current war and most of the discussion is about mages.

Well, I suppose we're at an impasse then. What you see as evil, I see as an inevitable consequence of any sort of organized institution. I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree then.

[thats1evildude]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

I get the feeling that most smart people avoid joining the Templars. I mean... really, the best you can hope for as a Templar is people hating you. If you're doing your job well, you're disliked because people see you as a bother and treat you with suspicion. If people are thrilled you've arrived, it's because there are abominations or maleficar around, and they've been up to no good. It's lose/lose.

Though anti-templar sentiment is on the rise, Cullen mentions it wasn't always that way for the templars. At one time, they were seen as heroes.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Herr Uhl wrote...

We don't know if he actually goes into peoples heads and cause them to do things. Being in their dreams is not being in their minds however, and roaming the fade is something you'd presume him to do. And people have done strange things because of dreams in the real world.

I'd suggest using control instead of influence.

It doesn't matter to me if he does or not. It doesn't matter if he is doing it consciously or not. It doesn't matter if he / it exerts direct mind control, or if he / it influences thoughts.

But when you are telling me that the history of an entire city is influenced by something like that, in seemingly ways that I cannot consider subtle no matter the degree, then I tell you this is not the kind of fantasy I am interested in.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 15 août 2011 - 04:33 .

[Shadow Fox]

Rifneno wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

True, they're simply evil. The standards of Thedas allow for a decent amount of it.

Making absolute, sweeping generalizations about an entire group of people makes me laugh.

It's even funnier that when the same is applied to mages some of these people get ready to burst a damn blood vessal over it.

So how many times in the past 15 seconds have you made those absolute, sweeping generalizations about pro-mage posters, then have to post "I didn't mean you, TEWR" right afterwards?

And how many times have you compared Templars supporters or anyone who sided with them for what ever reason in general to ****s or murdering rapists?

[Ryzaki]

hoorayforicecream wrote...
I get the feeling that most smart people avoid joining the Templars. I mean... really, the best you can hope for as a Templar is people hating you. If you're doing your job well, you're disliked because people see you as a bother and treat you with suspicion. If people are thrilled you've arrived, it's because there are abominations or maleficar around, and they've been up to no good. It's lose/lose.

But...wasn't Cullen talking about how templars used to be liked in Kirkwall? I don't think they're treated that badly by the populace. In Fereldan at least (granted it WAS during a blight) they were looked up to and very well respected. [Granted Ser Bryant *is* distilled awesome but the point stands...]. Edit: ninja'd SEVERAL times over. 

Though I agree about smart people avoiding it. Who really wants to be stuck watching mages all day and dealing with abominations and the like? Even if nothing bad happens the sheer boredom alone must drive people insane. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 15 août 2011 - 04:35 .

[IanPolaris]

Monica21 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
I'm not.  However, Dumat was their god and their leader.  His is the primary resposibility...just as the Divine bears the primary responsibility for the crimes done by the Exalted Marches (see Nuremberg).  That's especially true if his human followers were tricked into it which seems very, very likely if I understood the legacy epilog correctly.

-Polaris

Even if the Magister Lords were tricked, how do you get a powerful mage to do the unthinkable? You appeal to his pride. And if you're making a comparison to Nuremburg, then Dumat is Hitler and the Magisters were people like Goering and Hess, but I think it's a poor comparison.

It wasn't "unthinkable" because it was evil.  It was "unthinkable" because the best minds of Ancient Tevinter didn't think it was possible (and these are the same ones that sank ancient Arlathan).

The point is that the Magisters did want the power of gods and Dumat did appeal to their pride, but it was Dumat that made the blight possible.

That's why the Chantry IMHO owes the ancient magisters something of an apology.  They were following the dictates of their god.  In fact I personally doubt that that "Maker" or Andraste are all that different than Dumat, except they won.

-Polaris

[phaonica]

I don't think that accusing the Chantry of being an oppressive and power-hungry political schemer is any less of an overgeneralization than accusing all templars of being morally corrupt, or mages of being weak.

[TEWR]

Ryzaki wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Agreed. The Chantry just wants political influence everywhere, wants to control mages everywhere, and eliminate anyone with a different set of beliefs. I don't buy into their whole "Sing the Chant and the Maker will return!" schtick. Oh sure, some poor sods may earnestly believe it (Burkel), but I doubt that is what the real agenda of the Chantry is about.

Which is selfish. I have no problems taking out the Chantry. I just want the templars and circles intact (and to change into something less oppressive and restrictive). 

And bleh "He abandoned us but if we're really good he'll come back!" sounds like a kid waiting for his/her deadbeat dad to come back after he skipped out. It's just not happening. 

Chantry...I'm not sure what they want other than money, control and power. I'd hope it was something more altrustic (they do some good deeds) but I doubt it. 

Many horrendous organizations and people use good deeds as a cover for what they're actually doing.

I just want Mages to have more freedoms, but for the Templars to fall under the jurisdiction of the monarchs and for the Circles to be boarding schools. I want the mages to live in villages and cities with Templars present and check in every day. I want phylacteries to be kept and only used when a mage fails to check in. I want mages to be able to have families. And other things.

Ferelden seems to be leaning towards what I want for reforms to mages.

[Herr Uhl]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

We don't know if he actually goes into peoples heads and cause them to do things. Being in their dreams is not being in their minds however, and roaming the fade is something you'd presume him to do. And people have done strange things because of dreams in the real world.

I'd suggest using control instead of influence.

It doesn't matter to me if he does or not. It doesn't matter if he is doing it consciously or not. It doesn't matter if he / it exerts direct mind control, or if he / it influences thoughts.

But when you are telling me that the history of an entire city is influenced by something like that, then I tell you this is not the kind of fantasy I am interested in.

You're saying that the blight "goes into their heads" inexplicably. I'm trying to find a plausible explanation. Whether you personally like it or not, I don't really care.

[Monica21]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
It doesn't matter to me if he does or not. It doesn't matter if he is doing it consciously or not. It doesn't matter if he / it exerts direct mind control, or if he / it influences thoughts.

But when you are telling me that the history of an entire city is influenced by something like that, then I tell you this is not the kind of fantasy I am interested in.

It's simply speculation.

I think it's interesting for reasons that you don't see, which is namely that magic is a powerful tool. It's a very human tool and the magisters have shown us the bad and mages like Irving have shown us the good in being a magic-wielder. It's a tool just a like sword, but how you wield it depends on what you want and what human forces you allow to control you.

[IanPolaris]

phaonica wrote...

I don't think that accusing the Chantry of being an oppressive and power-hungry political schemer is any less of an overgeneralization than accusing all templars of being morally corrupt, or mages of being weak.

I do.  The Chantry as an organization has proven to be a power-hungry and scheming organization as a simple matter of recorded historical fact.  That doesn't mean that all members of the Chantry are this way of course.

-Polaris

[Ryzaki]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Many horrendous organizations and people use good deeds as a cover for what they're actually doing.

I just want Mages to have more freedoms, but for the Templars to fall under the jurisdiction of the monarchs and for the Circles to be boarding schools. I want the mages to live in villages and cities with Templars present and check in every day. I want phylacteries to be kept and only used when a mage fails to check in. I want mages to be able to have families. And other things.

Ferelden seems to be leaning towards what I want for reforms to mages.

That is true. 

I wouldn't be against that. Though the circles wil need to charge tution fees. You can't afford it you get mandatory military service for X amount of time. That way you have plenty of mage soldiers as well without anyone crying "I don't wanna be drafted!" you signed on a long time ago and you owe us money and time so tough cookies.  

Though a condition: Mages should HAVE to go to the circle immediately after a family member dies/get sicks (or anyone close them and undergo mandatory counciling so they're not vulnearable to a demon/doing illegal magics). 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 15 août 2011 - 04:40 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Herr Uhl wrote...

You're saying that the blight "goes into their heads" inexplicably. I'm trying to find a plausible explanation. Whether you personally like it or not, I don't really care.

I didn't say the blight goes into heads, at least in Origins, that's precisely what I was arguing against.
I am saying that whatever we have in DA2 and Legacy is something going into people's heads and influencing their actions.