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[phaonica]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
But when you are telling me that the history of an entire city is influenced by something like that, in seemingly ways that I cannot consider subtle no matter the degree, then I tell you this is not the kind of fantasy I am interested in.

I think that when someone is being *controlled* by an outside force such as (potentially) Corypheus, then it removes the responsibility of that person's actions. When the person is no longer fully responsible for their actions, the whole situation seems to become less grey and imo less interesting.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Monica21 wrote...
Gotcha. So, what were we originally talking about?

I have no idea. 

Leliana being a treacherous wench, lol. I think.

regardless, Leliana's percieved change of tune doesn't bother me that much, since she was my second least fave character after Wynne in Origins. So her opinions, whatever they might be, I don't care much about. Though I imagine most my Wardens, mage and not, would find her current status as lackey of the Divine less than endearing, for various reasons. If she had indeed been playing the Warden, or was following her/him for alterior motives, that would have been alot more interesting to learn more about than her seemingly new hardline stance on the Chantry.

Hell, forget about her new stances on magic, her supporting any Chantry hard line seems odd. Given that in Origins, much was emphasized that Leliana seemed to hold general theological and spiritual views that were in conflict with much of the established Chantry Dogma (like the belief that the Maker had not abanonded people and still showed his love in small ways).

Of course, that could have been an act as well. But regardless, that would have been more interesting to explore than her delivering a brief message about a few pissed off mages equalling a new Tevinter Imperium.

[Sepewrath]

Wow 25pgs in one day, this must be a hot topic lol. Maybe its just my fiction tropes kicking in, but I always got the feeling that the Wardens should be ones that no one wants around. A secretive order, that can do basically whatever they want, but are only useful once every few hundred years. That should be the people that everyone closes their doors when their around, they don't want anything to do with them unless its a Blight, then everyone is your best friend.

[Dave of Canada]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I just want Mages to have more freedoms, but for the Templars to fall under the jurisdiction of the monarchs and for the Circles to be boarding schools.

Templar falling under the jurisdiction of the monarchs wouldn't be that bad, it's a pretty decent suggestion. Though there'd be some monarchs who'd demand that mages should be free and other who'd demand mages should be slain, the Chantry provides a happy medium by keeping monarchy outside it's influence.

I want the mages to live in villages and cities with Templars present and check in every day.

Wouldn't be that different from the Circles unless you're suggesting they live in a village with non-mages or that it isn't walled (to prevent escapes).

I want mages to be able to have families. And other things.

I'd advise against families, for a reason I've previously stated in this thread.

[Monica21]

IanPolaris wrote...
The point is that the Magisters did want the power of gods and Dumat did appeal to their pride, but it was Dumat that made the blight possible.

We're going to go in circles on this, but again, you can't enter the city without willing humans and magic. So yes, there were mutliple events that caused the Blight. You can't just point a finger at Dumat and excuse humanity.

That's why the Chantry IMHO owes the ancient magisters something of an apology.  They were following the dictates of their god.  In fact I personally doubt that that "Maker" or Andraste are all that different than Dumat, except they won.

I disagree a lot, but I'm far too tired to get into this right now.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Monica21 wrote...

It's simply speculation.

I think it's interesting for reasons that you don't see, which is namely that magic is a powerful tool. It's a very human tool and the magisters have shown us the bad and mages like Irving have shown us the good in being a magic-wielder. It's a tool just a like sword, but how you wield it depends on what you want and what human forces you allow to control you.

If speculation is also going to be constantly used to excuse poor writing, that too I do not care for.

That's not the direction DA seems to be headed. I hope my impression is wrong, but quite frankly I will not care that much if my impression was correct.

Oh and the constant villification of Tevinter always got on my nerves, btw. Except when I dismissed much of it as Chantry propaganda that it would obviously use to justify its existence. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 15 août 2011 - 04:42 .

[Rifneno]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

And how many times have you compared Templars supporters or anyone who sided with them for what ever reason in general to ****s or murdering rapists?

None. That you can't distinguish between an attack on some fictional characters and an attack on actual person, is your own failing.

[IanPolaris]

Sepewrath wrote...

Wow 25pgs in one day, this must be a hot topic lol. Maybe its just my fiction tropes kicking in, but I always got the feeling that the Wardens should be ones that no one wants around. A secretive order, that can do basically whatever they want, but are only useful once every few hundred years. That should be the people that everyone closes their doors when their around, they don't want anything to do with them unless its a Blight, then everyone is your best friend.

I hear you.  Now add in what we learned in Legacy, i.e. a Warden that is "old" enough can be tricked/controlled by powerful darkspawn (like emissaries) and you start to wonder how the Wardens got and kept their good reputation and how many bodies were buried to keep that reputation.

That's fine by me actually.  I always understood from the start that the Wardens were a "Grey" organization that played with soul-destroying fire so that others didn't have to, but it does sort of hammer the point home.

-Polaris

[TEWR]

Ryzaki wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Many horrendous organizations and people use good deeds as a cover for what they're actually doing.

I just want Mages to have more freedoms, but for the Templars to fall under the jurisdiction of the monarchs and for the Circles to be boarding schools. I want the mages to live in villages and cities with Templars present and check in every day. I want phylacteries to be kept and only used when a mage fails to check in. I want mages to be able to have families. And other things.

Ferelden seems to be leaning towards what I want for reforms to mages.

That is true. 

I wouldn't be against that. Though the circles wil need to charge tution fees. You can't afford it you get mandatory military service for X amount of time. That way you have plenty of mage soldiers as well. 

Were they to form an alliance with Dwarves (like Dagna and her Circle do), they could enchant items and sell them, eliminating the need for the Tranquil to be the source of income. Likewise, Formari like Solivitus are able to craft items and sell them.

I would prefer that the Circle be a free boarding school. They already have enough means to keep them going.

I would also allow the more experienced mages to do anatomical research in the hopes that they might discover a better, less crude method of applying the RoT (where a person still has their emotions, but not the magic).

I would also institute a rule that the new RoT (if it were possible to have a new RoT) would only be used sparingly and only on mages who do not want to be mages. But there would be no mass RoT.

Also, improve the bloody Harrowing, because it's incredibly flawed as well.

[Herr Uhl]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I didn't say the blight goes into heads, at least in Origins, that's precisely what I was arguing against.
I am saying that whatever we have in DA2 and Legacy is something going into people's heads and influencing their actions.

And that is what I'm trying to find out. If he actively seeks people out, I don't see it as random. He is bound, thus he reaches out to the dreamers, especially those in power.

It very much mirrors the chantry tales about the old gods to me. Edit: The above is my theory, "magic" might be the answer though.

Anyways, Legacy wasn't the main storyline, but a sidequest. The emphasis put on it as it being the main thing of DA2 and explaining everything is odd to me. Same goes for the enigma codices.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 15 août 2011 - 04:45 .

[IanPolaris]

My point is that Chantry dogma as it stands blames Human failings and blood magic SOLELY for the blight and the blackening of the golden city. We now learn that this may not be true. If so that puts a real crimp in the "blame game" the Chantry has used against mages and magic for a thousand years.

It seems to me that Dumat was the prime mover and it's he that deserves the primary blame. I don't see why this is hard to see.

-Polaris

[Dave of Canada]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I would also allow the more experienced mages to do anatomical research in the hopes that they might discover a better, less crude method of applying the RoT (where a person still has their emotions, but not the magic).

If this existed, I'd see all mages instantly being branded upon signs of magic. I doubt we'd have that tool at our disposal and not get rid of everybody's fear immediately.

[Ryzaki]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Were they to form an alliance with Dwarves (like Dagna and her Circle do), they could enchant items and sell them, eliminating the need for the Tranquil to be the source of income. Likewise, Formari like Solivitus are able to craft items and sell them.

I would prefer that the Circle be a free boarding school. They already have enough means to keep them going.

I would also allow the more experienced mages to do anatomical research in the hopes that they might discover a better, less crude method of applying the RoT (where a person still has their emotions, but not the magic).

I would also institute a rule that the new RoT (if it were possible to have a new RoT) would only be used sparingly and only on mages who do not want to be mages. But there would be no mass RoT.

Also, improve the bloody Harrowing, because it's incredibly flawed as well.

 

Ah true. They'll need to work then. I'd still put in mandatory military service though. 

RoT though...it would depend on if parents could force it on their kids. If so I don't see a lo of mage children staying such. 

And agreeded again on all points. So much for all pro-templar people being disagreeable eh?  

That said...normal people need to start working in medicine as well. It's kind of silly that if you don't have a healer mage you're screwed. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 15 août 2011 - 04:46 .

[phaonica]

IanPolaris wrote...

phaonica wrote...

I don't think that accusing the Chantry of being an oppressive and power-hungry political schemer is any less of an overgeneralization than accusing all templars of being morally corrupt, or mages of being weak.

I do.  The Chantry as an organization has proven to be a power-hungry and scheming organization as a simple matter of recorded historical fact.  That doesn't mean that all members of the Chantry are this way of course.

-Polaris

That's not necessarily the purpose that the Chantry was built upon, though. No more than the Circle was conceived for the purpose of abusing mages.

[Monica21]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
If speculation is also going to be constantly used to excuse poor writing, that too I do not care for.

That's not the direction DA seems to be headed. I hope my impression is wrong, but quite frankly I will not care that much if my impression was correct.

I can't disagre with you there. I like the lore just because I like the lore. I want to know why the magisters were in Kirkwall and what the Primeval Thaig is. I guess that's why I have a history degree and you have a poly sci degree.

Oh and the constant villification of Tevinter always got on my nerves, btw. Except when I dismissed much of it as Chantry propaganda that it would obviously use to justify its existence. 

Eh, I always kind of figured it was just propaganda.

[Dave of Canada]

IanPolaris wrote...

It seems to me that Dumat was the prime mover and it's he that deserves the primary blame. I don't see why this is hard to see.

-Polaris

The Chantry teaches us that it is the hubris of men which brought the
darkspawn into our world. The mages had sought to usurp Heaven. But
instead, they destroyed it. They were cast out, twisted and cursed by
their own corruption.

Dumat plays with the "hubris of men" to make the mages "usurp Heaven" for it's power, we know they've been corrupted since they went there. The only thing we don't know is if it was "destroyed" already or was destroyed upon arrival.

It doesn't contradict anything the Chantry says, it's still the bloody humans that went there.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Monica21 wrote...

I can't disagre with you there. I like the lore just because I like the lore. I want to know why the magisters were in Kirkwall and what the Primeval Thaig is. I guess that's why I have a history degree and you have a poly sci degree.

History minor, btw

[IanPolaris]

phaonica wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

phaonica wrote...

I don't think that accusing the Chantry of being an oppressive and power-hungry political schemer is any less of an overgeneralization than accusing all templars of being morally corrupt, or mages of being weak.

I do.  The Chantry as an organization has proven to be a power-hungry and scheming organization as a simple matter of recorded historical fact.  That doesn't mean that all members of the Chantry are this way of course.

-Polaris

That's not necessarily the purpose that the Chantry was built upon, though. No more than the Circle was conceived for the purpose of abusing mages.

I don't disagree, but I'd say the original purpse of the Chantry isn't terribly relevent especially when we consider that what we call the Chanty was one of many competing Cults of Andraste that just happened to get Orlesian Imperial Favor early in the modern age of Thedas.

For example, just how similiar do you think the modern RCC is to the Roman Church during the last half of the Roman Empire?  Answer:  Not very (as in hardly at all).

-Polaris

[TEWR]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Templar falling under the jurisdiction of the monarchs wouldn't be that bad, it's a pretty decent suggestion. Though there'd be some monarchs who'd demand that mages should be free and other who'd demand mages should be slain, the Chantry provides a happy medium by keeping monarchy outside it's influence.

Of course. I admit it's iffy, but most things are. The Chantry however is not what I would call the happy medium givers.

There are ways though that monarchs could probably use Templars without resorting to unwarranted genocide. Maybe a sort of meeting between the monarchs of each nation every few years? Ehh.... I don't know how well that'd work out, but as I said there are ways

But... were they to try to kill all mages in their nation, the populus wouldn't like that I bet.

Wouldn't be that different from the Circles unless you're suggesting they live in a village with non-mages or that it isn't walled (to prevent escapes).

Yes, a village with non-mages. I think part of the problem is that the mages and the people don't interact with each other much (something the Mages' Collective addressed by making problems disappear before the Chantry got involved, and thus improved the perception of magic)

I'd advise against families, for a reason I've previously stated in this thread.

not sure what you said in regards to family, but on another thread I said that Quentin's insanity was proof that mages need to also learn about how to handle death. Magic and family death are related more than one would think, so helping to teach the mage how to cope with it would help.

[Monica21]

IanPolaris wrote...

My point is that Chantry dogma as it stands blames Human failings and blood magic SOLELY for the blight and the blackening of the golden city. We now learn that this may not be true. If so that puts a real crimp in the "blame game" the Chantry has used against mages and magic for a thousand years.

It seems to me that Dumat was the prime mover and it's he that deserves the primary blame. I don't see why this is hard to see.

-Polaris

Because I don't know how you issue an apology to dead Tevinter magisters. And yes, that's what religion does. Where have you been for the past 2,000 years? Part of what religion does is make people feel guilty. I kind of associate entering the Golden City with Adam and Eve eating from the Tree of Knowledge. Except the Blight gives you physical corruption. 

[phaonica]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Hell, forget about her new stances on magic, her supporting any Chantry hard line seems odd.

I didn't think so, but I was only friends with Leliana, I never romanced her. Even hardened, she was still Andrastean, so her becoming a Chantry spy didn't seem like a far stretch to me.

Given that in Origins, much was emphasized that Leliana seemed to hold general theological and spiritual views that were in conflict with much of the established Chantry Dogma (like the belief that the Maker had not abanonded people and still showed his love in small ways).

In DA2, they seem to have forgotten that the Maker left Thedas, because with all the "The Maker will decide" talk even from Elthina, she seems to imply that the Maker is still around directly controlling certain outcomes.

[hoorayforicecream]

Ryzaki wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...
I get the feeling that most smart people avoid joining the Templars. I mean... really, the best you can hope for as a Templar is people hating you. If you're doing your job well, you're disliked because people see you as a bother and treat you with suspicion. If people are thrilled you've arrived, it's because there are abominations or maleficar around, and they've been up to no good. It's lose/lose.

But...wasn't Cullen talking about how templars used to be liked in Kirkwall? I don't think they're treated that badly by the populace. In Fereldan at least (granted it WAS during a blight) they were looked up to and very well respected. [Granted Ser Bryant *is* distilled awesome but the point stands...]. Edit: ninja'd SEVERAL times over. 

Though I agree about smart people avoiding it. Who really wants to be stuck watching mages all day and dealing with abominations and the like? Even if nothing bad happens the sheer boredom alone must drive people insane. 

This is probably why they recruit the fervent and not the smart. Smart people would probably run for the hills.

That said, yeah... I can see the templars being hailed as heroes. But it's like I said before, it's almost always a 'What have you done for me lately?' situation... they're welcomed as heroes only when there are maleficar and abominations to remind the people why they needed the Templars in the first place.

[IanPolaris]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Dumat plays with the "hubris of men" to make the mages "usurp Heaven" for it's power, we know they've been corrupted since they went there. The only thing we don't know is if it was "destroyed" already or was destroyed upon arrival.

It doesn't contradict anything the Chantry says, it's still the bloody humans that went there.

Yes it does in one very important way.  The Chantry puts the sole onus on the Imperial Magisters, but we now find that was undeserved.  It was Dumat (who was their GOD) that wanted them to do it.  Sure he appealed to their pride (but I daresay that Andraste in her day and even the Divine now does the same to insure her follower's loyalty). 

Thus the primary (not sole) blame really falls on Dumat (who I suspect very strongly knew perfectly well what would happen).  This is very much in contradiction with Chantry dogma.

-Polaris

[TEWR]

Dave of Canada wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I would also allow the more experienced mages to do anatomical research in the hopes that they might discover a better, less crude method of applying the RoT (where a person still has their emotions, but not the magic).

If this existed, I'd see all mages instantly being branded upon signs of magic. I doubt we'd have that tool at our disposal and not get rid of everybody's fear immediately.

That opens up a lot of trouble. Spirit Healers can heal wounds more effectively than a regular doctor, and blood mages can manipulate blood flow, which could be used medicinally for gravely injured people.

Then, you have to account for being invaded. If you have no mages, you're very likely screwed.

Hence why I said I personally wouldn't make it something that's implemented willy nilly.

[Iakus]

IanPolaris wrote...

phaonica wrote...

I don't think that accusing the Chantry of being an oppressive and power-hungry political schemer is any less of an overgeneralization than accusing all templars of being morally corrupt, or mages of being weak.

I do.  The Chantry as an organization has proven to be a power-hungry and scheming organization as a simple matter of recorded historical fact.  That doesn't mean that all members of the Chantry are this way of course.

-Polaris

But this also describes

Orlais
Orzammar
The Tevinter Imperium
Antiva
The nobles of Ferelden
The nobles of the Free Marches
the mage factions in general
More than a few Grey Wardens in the past.

In other words, it's a very human (or elven, or dearven, or whatever) quality not limited to a particular organization.