968 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

hoorayforicecream wrote...
This is probably why they recruit the fervent and not the smart. Smart people would probably run for the hills.

That said, yeah... I can see the templars being hailed as heroes. But it's like I said before, it's almost always a 'What have you done for me lately?' situation... they're welcomed as heroes only when there are maleficar and abominations to remind the people why they needed the Templars in the first place.

Can't really blame them. The pay is probably crap too. 

Sounds about right. I actually feel kind of bad for them now.  

@Compared to the states my issue with the Chantry is there's no balance system: 
Fereldan? The Landsmeet. The King doesn't have complete and utter power there.
Antiva? From what Zevran said the crows. No one has complete power because it's a massive game of roulette.
Orlais? Not sure.

...There's nothing that really can keep the Chantry in check.  
 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 15 août 2011 - 04:57 .

[TEWR]

Ryzaki wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Were they to form an alliance with Dwarves (like Dagna and her Circle do), they could enchant items and sell them, eliminating the need for the Tranquil to be the source of income. Likewise, Formari like Solivitus are able to craft items and sell them.

I would prefer that the Circle be a free boarding school. They already have enough means to keep them going.

I would also allow the more experienced mages to do anatomical research in the hopes that they might discover a better, less crude method of applying the RoT (where a person still has their emotions, but not the magic).

I would also institute a rule that the new RoT (if it were possible to have a new RoT) would only be used sparingly and only on mages who do not want to be mages. But there would be no mass RoT.

Also, improve the bloody Harrowing, because it's incredibly flawed as well.

 

Ah true. They'll need to work then. I'd still put in mandatory military service though. 

RoT though...it would depend on if parents could force it on their kids. If so I don't see a lo of mage children staying such. 

And agreeded again on all points. So much for all pro-templar people being disagreeable eh?  

That said...normal people need to start working in medicine as well. It's kind of silly that if you don't have a healer mage you're screwed. 

I would too. Mages are useful in both Blights and invasions (*cough cough Qunari cough cough*), but the Circles could also handle that.

I wouldn't allow parents to force it on their children. This would be something that the mage could decide upon being selected for his Harrowing.
Oh pro-templar people aren't so bad. When they're not murdering innocent people for no reason that is (I kid I kid)

Something tells me Thedas still uses leeches, given the comments by the woman who kept Anders safe 

[IanPolaris]

iakus wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

phaonica wrote...

I don't think that accusing the Chantry of being an oppressive and power-hungry political schemer is any less of an overgeneralization than accusing all templars of being morally corrupt, or mages of being weak.

I do.  The Chantry as an organization has proven to be a power-hungry and scheming organization as a simple matter of recorded historical fact.  That doesn't mean that all members of the Chantry are this way of course.

-Polaris

But this also describes

Orlais
Orzammar
The Tevinter Imperium
Antiva
The nobles of Ferelden
The nobles of the Free Marches
the mage factions in general
More than a few Grey Wardens in the past.

In other words, it's a very human (or elven, or dearven, or whatever) quality not limited to a particular organization.

I could quibble about a few of these, but that's basically true.  It's a matter of degree.  Honestly the closest historical parallel (and it's faults) is with Roman Catholic Church of the middle ages which also had unprecendented religious and political power and was more than willing to ignore it's own scripture in pursuit of such power.

-Polaris

[Brian Lewis]

I'm still new to the forums, but I'm going to try to bring this back on topic. I percieved Leliana as being somewhat antimage. She could have just said "Kirkwall cannot fall to extremists, mage or otherwise." Or at least question Hawke about the situation. He could have also asked, "And if it falls to a powerhungry Knight Commander and corrupt Templars, what will the Divine do then?" and "How about cracking down on abusive templars, replace Meredith, and check back after a couple months and see if things improve?"

I brought Merril with me with a Dalish import and wondered why she didn't point out that they don't have Templars or a Circle and yet they don't have nearly as many magic based problems as the Chantry does. And for Leliana to reply, "Now you sound like Mahariel." The Dalish Warden should also have been able to discuss this with her, Wynne, and Alistair, as well as discuss the fact that the Dalish have a different religon and the Mage Wardens to talk to Leliana about the Circle and how they feel about it.

[xScarecrowX]

I'm not going to go back and read all 27 pages, but I'm just going to give my two cents:

I want to chop Leliana's head off (again). That is all.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

phaonica wrote...


I didn't think so, but I was only friends with Leliana, I never romanced her. Even hardened, she was still Andrastean, so her becoming a Chantry spy didn't seem like a far stretch to me.

Being an Andrastian doesn't necessarily mean supporting the organized institution and dogma of the Chantry. Just like there are many members of real world religons who might believe in their deities, but not the dogma or religous traditions currently institued.

In DA2, they seem to have forgotten that the Maker left Thedas, because with all the "The Maker will decide" talk even from Elthina, she seems to imply that the Maker is still around directly controlling certain outcomes.

That was merely Elthina's excuse for being lazy and neglecting her duties of her position. The Chantry doesn't believe that the Maker isn't paying attention to Thedas, they do not believe he actively participates in the world like Leliana did. In fact, I remember a couple convos with leliana where she talks about how her beliefs often conflicted with those of the other Chantry sisters, and that her views were not looked very kindly upon, merely tolerated.

[Herr Uhl]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Something tells me Thedas still uses leeches, given the comments by the woman who kept Anders safe 

We still use leeches.

[Melca36]

RagingCyclone wrote...

Melca36 wrote...


The anti mage people fail to realize that this war is NOT going to be only Mage VS Templar.

THIS

Thank you.

Its going to be Mage VS Blood Mage

Templars will be fighting Templars when some break from the Chantry.

There be normal ordinary citizens who side with the mages as well

[Rifneno]

Herr Uhl wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Something tells me Thedas still uses leeches, given the comments by the woman who kept Anders safe 

We still use leeches.

 just... ....  

[TEWR]

Herr Uhl wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Something tells me Thedas still uses leeches, given the comments by the woman who kept Anders safe 

We still use leeches.

Huh.... I did not know that. I thought we abandoned using leeches.

[IanPolaris]

Herr Uhl wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Something tells me Thedas still uses leeches, given the comments by the woman who kept Anders safe 

We still use leeches.

Technically true but not helpful imo.  Modern doctors use leeches under carefully controlled conditions for very select cases where excess blood has to be removed as painlessly as possible with minimum tissue damage and little risk of life threatening clotting.

What the poster you are responding to was talking about was the discredited (and dangerous) medical theories of humors that actually made going to a midaeval doctor more dangerous than getting well on your own..and that would persist until Europe got over it's fear of anatomy...and Thedas has that same fear on steriods because of the chantry prohibition on bloodmagic.  Physicians are afraid to study anatomy for fear of being labled bloodmages and idiots like Gisguard(sp?) don't make the situation any better!

-Polaris

[Dave of Canada]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Of course. I admit it's iffy, but most things are. The Chantry however is not what I would call the happy medium givers.

Of course it isn't really the happiest medium, though they certainly stop the most fanatic monarchs from killing the mages and stops the most mage-friendly ones from releasing them. Sitting in the middle and having them handle the mages, in addition to giving mages to the monarchs (in order to stop them from using them against each other) is probably one of the happiest middles without having to put trust in a monarch to do the "right" thing.

Maybe a sort of meeting between the monarchs of each nation every few years? Ehh.... I don't know how well that'd work out, but as I said there are ways

Wouldn't really handle that well unless there's something like the U.N of Thedas (U.N.T makes me giggle for some reason), I don't see why Empress Celene would have to answer for something she does to King Alistair or the Templar on the docks (He's the Queen of Antiva, you know!).

But... were they to try to kill all mages in their nation, the populus wouldn't like that I bet.

The gloriousness of monarchy is never having to say you're sorry.

Yes, a village with non-mages. I think part of the problem is that the mages and the people don't interact with each other much (something the Mages' Collective addressed by making problems disappear before the Chantry got involved, and thus improved the perception of magic)

I take it this would be a village built specifically for this purpose and possibly walled off (to stop the most fanatic people from burning it down and stop mages from escaping)? If so, it could technically work assuming the people know the risks going in and they have a sibling / child / parent in there (it wouldn't be that different from visiting in the current Circle system, difference is they'd be capable of living in).

not sure what you said in regards to family

Family muddles things too much, it creates ties which demons can exploit. A mage woman gives birth to a child and finds out it's sick, it's dying and there's no way to heal it. How many mothers today would give everything to protect their children? Add in demon offers of curing the child in exchange of the demon recieving the mother's body for possession, I'd assume quite a few would accept.

[xScarecrowX]

Rifneno wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Something tells me Thedas still uses leeches, given the comments by the woman who kept Anders safe 

We still use leeches.

 just... ....  

Yeah, they eat dead tissue, not living, so hospitals use them (clean ones of course)..........Sorry......

[TEWR]

Wouldn't really handle that well unless there's something like the U.N of Thedas (U.N.T makes me giggle for some reason), I don't see why Empress Celene would have to answer for something she does to King Alistair or the Templar on the docks (He's the Queen of Antiva, you know!).

still reading your post but I had to say this:

put a C. in front of it!

[Herr Uhl]

IanPolaris wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Something tells me Thedas still uses leeches, given the comments by the woman who kept Anders safe 

We still use leeches.

Technically true but not helpful imo.  Modern doctors use leeches under carefully controlled conditions for very select cases where excess blood has to be removed as painlessly as possible with minimum tissue damage and little risk of life threatening clotting.

What the poster you are responding to was talking about was the discredited (and dangerous) medical theories of humors that actually made going to a midaeval doctor more dangerous than getting well on your own..and that would persist until Europe got over it's fear of anatomy...and Thedas has that same fear on steriods because of the chantry prohibition on bloodmagic.  Physicians are afraid to study anatomy for fear of being labled bloodmages and idiots like Gisguard(sp?) don't make the situation any better!

-Polaris

Yes, he probably meant bloodletting. But it'll teach them something, so it isn't completely unhelpful.

[xScarecrowX]

xScarecrowX wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Something tells me Thedas still uses leeches, given the comments by the woman who kept Anders safe 

We still use leeches.

 just... ....  

Yeah, they eat dead tissue, not living, so hospitals use them (clean ones of course)..........Sorry......

Oh, wait, I'm thinking of maggots. Yes they use those.

[IanPolaris]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Family muddles things too much, it creates ties which demons can exploit. A mage woman gives birth to a child and finds out it's sick, it's dying and there's no way to heal it. How many mothers today would give everything to protect their children? Add in demon offers of curing the child in exchange of the demon recieving the mother's body for possession, I'd assume quite a few would accept.

We hear all about this but the game lore evidence seems scant at best.  Now I am not saying that mages shouldn't all have mandatory training (no one reasonable I've read claims that!), but it seems to me that demons prey on emotional weakness and family is a source of emotional strength at least to most.  Better that mage apprentices have contact with families and be as well adjusted as possible while being WELL EDUCATED about the danger of demons and their responsibility of power.

In short, I have yet to hear a good justification (or any decent moral justifcation) for the circle system and stripping crying children from their mothers seems an open invitation for desire demons to step in.  Just sayin'

-Polaris

[Iakus]

Brian Lewis wrote...

I'm still new to the forums, but I'm going to try to bring this back on topic. I percieved Leliana as being somewhat antimage. She could have just said "Kirkwall cannot fall to extremists, mage or otherwise." Or at least question Hawke about the situation. He could have also asked, "And if it falls to a powerhungry Knight Commander and corrupt Templars, what will the Divine do then?" and "How about cracking down on abusive templars, replace Meredith, and check back after a couple months and see if things improve?"

It looked like Leliana wasn't there for the templars or the Kirkwall mages.  She was expecting a threat from outside the city (the Resolutionists).  Like I sid several pages back, I'm left to wonder just how  much the Divine knew about what was going on.  She seemed to know something big was about to happen, but not that the Circle and Templars in the city were about to go to war with each other.

I brought Merril with me with a Dalish import and wondered why she didn't point out that they don't have Templars or a Circle and yet they don't have nearly as many magic based problems as the Chantry does. And for Leliana to reply, "Now you sound like Mahariel." The Dalish Warden should also have been able to discuss this with her, Wynne, and Alistair, as well as discuss the fact that the Dalish have a different religon and the Mage Wardens to talk to Leliana about the Circle and how they feel about it.

Merril herself explains it in a coversation in-game.  Magic is dying out among elves, but is increasing rapidly among humans (I think one codex entry says the number of mages in the Kirkwall circle doubled in five years). The Dalish therefore have much fewer mages among their people. 

And the Keepers do risk demonic possession, and this is considered a particularly tragic occurence, as then the Keepers' own clan must hunt down and kill him/her.

[Ryzaki]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I would too. Mages are useful in both Blights and invasions (*cough cough Qunari cough cough*), but the Circles could also handle that.

I wouldn't allow parents to force it on their children. This would be something that the mage could decide upon being selected for his Harrowing.
Oh pro-templar people aren't so bad. When they're not murdering innocent people for no reason that is (I kid I kid)

Something tells me Thedas still uses leeches, given the comments by the woman who kept Anders safe 

Throw in some GWs as well.

Perhaps. I still think some might be pressured into accepting it though. (Especially noble children.)

"I answer to a code that is clearly defined. If my actions are true to that code, I m just. If they are not, I am unjust. I don't pretend it is a simple matter, or that it seems right to everyone. But I sleep well at night and that's more than most can say." (stolen from Samara).

...that's just gross.  Edit: I know they're still used today it's still gross. All the advances in tech and we still rely on creepy crawlies. Bleh. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 15 août 2011 - 05:12 .

[Rifneno]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Something tells me Thedas still uses leeches, given the comments by the woman who kept Anders safe 

We still use leeches.

Huh.... I did not know that. I thought we abandoned using leeches.

If by "we" we're referring to the entire modern world, we use far stupider things.  The best example I can think of is that in China, the horn of the Asian Rhinoceros is used to relieve fever.  This is extremely stupid on three fronts.  1) The Asian Rhinoceros is nearly extinct... because of this.  2) It doesn't even work.  3) The horns are basically keratin, which is the same thing our own fingernails and hair is made of.  So instead of hunting an animal to extinction, we could use stuff we throw in the trash instead.  If it worked.  Which it doesn't.  ...  Only a hundred or so years ago, people thought electricity was an awesome cure for impotence, so they just gave their junk a tiny little electric chair.  Speaking of junk, a medical practice that for the sanity of us all I shall only refer to as "urine therapy" still has followers to this day.  ...  So in conclusion, this is why I don't complain about doctors loading us all with pills.

[Sepewrath]

phaonica wrote...
I didn't think so, but I was only friends with Leliana, I never romanced her. Even hardened, she was still Andrastean, so her becoming a Chantry spy didn't seem like a far stretch to me.

In DA2, they seem to have forgotten that the Maker left Thedas, because with all the "The Maker will decide" talk even from Elthina, she seems to imply that the Maker is still around directly controlling certain outcomes.

I would agree with the first part, Leliana was definitely drinking the Chantry kool-aid, no question about that. She simply had a different approach to the same ideals. Hence the reason she was perfectly content with all the killing you all were doing.

The second part, I believe your overthinking. Its just something to say, like "Thank the Maker" which would of course mean the Maker was actively involved in a situation, which the Chantry teaches he's not.

[IanPolaris]

An all female team of heros was formed by a United Nations of Orlais, Fereldan, Nevarra, and the Free Marches. Made entirely of female recruits from Templar and Mage backgrounds, they are the:

Chicks of the United Nations of Thedas.

Neat story but I don't think the acronym would make it past marketing

-Polaris

[Herr Uhl]

Rifneno wrote...

If by "we" we're referring to the entire modern world, we use far stupider things.  The best example I can think of is that in China, the horn of the Asian Rhinoceros is used to relieve fever.  This is extremely stupid on three fronts.  1) The Asian Rhinoceros is nearly extinct... because of this.  2) It doesn't even work.  3) The horns are basically keratin, which is the same thing our own fingernails and hair is made of.  So instead of hunting an animal to extinction, we could use stuff we throw in the trash instead.  If it worked.  Which it doesn't.  ...  Only a hundred or so years ago, people thought electricity was an awesome cure for impotence, so they just gave their junk a tiny little electric chair.  Speaking of junk, a medical practice that for the sanity of us all I shall only refer to as "urine therapy" still has followers to this day.  ...  So in conclusion, this is why I don't complain about doctors loading us all with pills.

The difference being that leeches have proven their worth in the medical world and is a part of modern medicine.

Homoepathica is very different. Anyways, this is offtopic.

[Rifneno]

I've always wondered... IanPolaris, what was Sigrun right about?

[TEWR]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Of course it isn't really the happiest medium, though they certainly stop the most fanatic monarchs from killing the mages and stops the most mage-friendly ones from releasing them. Sitting in the middle and having them handle the mages, in addition to giving mages to the monarchs (in order to stop them from using them against each other) is probably one of the happiest middles without having to put trust in a monarch to do the "right" thing.

The problem being, I also have to put my trust in the Chantry to do the right thing. And they haven't exactly been doing the right thing for 1000 years.

Wouldn't really handle that well unless there's something like the U.N of Thedas (U.N.T makes me giggle for some reason), I don't see why Empress Celene would have to answer for something she does to King Alistair or the Templar on the docks (He's the Queen of Antiva, you know!).

To address this seriously, you have a point (I lol'd at the Carroll reference). But, it goes along with Cailans ideal, albeit his was a foolish one and admittedly this probably is too. Ideally (damn idealism!), they would meet to figure out how to better the lives of the populus that consists of the mages, templars, and non-mages.

But in practice, there are no guarantees and as such wouldn't work the way I'd like.

The gloriousness of monarchy is never having to say you're sorry.

Hah true.

I take it this would be a village built specifically for this purpose and possibly walled off (to stop the most fanatic people from burning it down and stop mages from escaping)? If so, it could technically work assuming the people know the risks going in and they have a sibling / child / parent in there (it wouldn't be that different from visiting in the current Circle system, difference is they'd be capable of living in).

Pretty much yea. But I'd even like to start instigating a few villages with no walls and see how that works. Try and make the Templars and Mages not act like cats and dogs to one another and instead act like best friends.

*imagines a new hit TV show where a Templar comes home to his mage roommate and they get into all sorts of trouble*

Coming soon to WPHL!

Family muddles things too much, it creates ties which demons can exploit. A mage woman gives birth to a child and finds out it's sick, it's dying and there's no way to heal it. How many mothers today would give everything to protect their children? Add in demon offers of curing the child in exchange of the demon recieving the mother's body for possession, I'd assume quite a few would accept.

True. But if the medical field in Thedas could be advanced, things like this wouldn't be much of an issue, along with teaching mages how to handle death properly.

There would definitely be some instances, but if things were planned out accordingly to how the system should be it wouldn't happen as much.