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Will Sister Nightingale continue to be anti-mage?


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#676
Dave of Canada

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IanPolaris wrote...

demons prey on emotional weakness and family is a source of emotional strength at least to most.


Unless you've got a bad family, your family is troubled or whatever. Family can cause emotional trauma / weakness quite easily. Remove it completely, raise somebody without it and they don't know what they are missing and the Circle becomes their family.

Better that mage apprentices have contact with families


Which is entirely possible.
Circle Bethany has contact with Hawke and Leandra.
Gamlen is capable of sending mail to Bethany in the Circle.
Finn has his family come and visit in addition to bringing gifts.
Eamon visits Connor.

and be as well adjusted as possible while being WELL EDUCATED about the danger of demons and their responsibility of power.


Circles don't educate mages about their power or demons? The Harrowing is what, exactly?

In short, I have yet to hear a good justification (or any decent moral justifcation) for the circle system and stripping crying children from their mothers seems an open invitation for desire demons to step in.  Just sayin'

-Polaris


Because there's no expectation to keep the child, nor do the usual mages support having children / long-term relationships. Desire Demons might step in, though there's a lot less chance of it happening. It's about minimizing risk, not eliminating it completely (which is impossible).

#677
IanPolaris

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Rifneno wrote...

I've always wondered... IanPolaris, what was Sigrun right about?


Old argument when DAA was new.  Sigrun was right about the Architect, i.e. giving a race of creatures who can not coexist with other sentient species except to eat/parasitically breed with them is NOT a race of creatures you want to make smarter and stronger.

-Polaris

#678
KnightofPhoenix

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Rifneno wrote...

I've always wondered... IanPolaris, what was Sigrun right about?


A long time ago, Ian and I argued about the Architect decision in Awakening. It started from there, I believe.

#679
IanPolaris

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What is the Harrowing? The harrowing is nothing more than throwing an unprepared mage into a Cage-Match with a demon in the fade and telling the Demon "free eats" and telling the mage, "good luck". It's amazing as many mages pass as they do.

-Polaris

#680
IanPolaris

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Dave,

So you don't think a little child will miss her or her mother (or family) and you don't think it makes it more likely that a Desire demon would step in to "make it better"?

Seems sorta obvious to me.

-Polaris

#681
TEWR

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IanPolaris wrote...

An all female team of heros was formed by a United Nations of Orlais, Fereldan, Nevarra, and the Free Marches. Made entirely of female recruits from Templar and Mage backgrounds, they are the:

Chicks of the United Nations of Thedas.

Neat story but I don't think the acronym would make it past marketing :(

-Polaris



Oh Bioware's marketing guy could sell it. Image IPB

#682
Herr Uhl

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IanPolaris wrote...

What is the Harrowing? The harrowing is nothing more than throwing an unprepared mage into a Cage-Match with a demon in the fade and telling the Demon "free eats" and telling the mage, "good luck". It's amazing as many mages pass as they do.

-Polaris


I'd imagine that not trusting what you see in the fade is somewhere in their decade-ish long studies. So not completely unprepared.

#683
KnightofPhoenix

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IanPolaris wrote...

What is the Harrowing? The harrowing is nothing more than throwing an unprepared mage into a Cage-Match with a demon in the fade and telling the Demon "free eats" and telling the mage, "good luck". It's amazing as many mages pass as they do.

-Polaris


The demon in the mage origin deliberately allowed us to leave. I wonder if there is some sort of arrangement with the demon in question. I've always found him almost sounding like he's giving us advice odd and fascinating.

#684
Dave of Canada

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IanPolaris wrote...

What is the Harrowing? The harrowing is nothing more than throwing an unprepared mage into a Cage-Match with a demon in the fade and telling the Demon "free eats" and telling the mage, "good luck". It's amazing as many mages pass as they do.

-Polaris


Because they've been trained since childhood, the Harrowing is something they have to be prepared to face at a moment's notice. Throwing them into the Fade and forcing them to fight a demon (I don't know if Mouse was part of the Harrowing, if so... having to deal with their lies too, though it's interesting how it "helped" us) is probably one of the necessary things that Circles need to do.

If they fail the Harrowing, they would've failed if a demon was aggressive.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 15 août 2011 - 05:21 .


#685
Sepewrath

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No I just think that's PC armor, even if you were completely dense and didn't notice it, the plot saves you.

#686
Rifneno

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IanPolaris wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

I've always wondered... IanPolaris, what was Sigrun right about?


Old argument when DAA was new.  Sigrun was right about the Architect, i.e. giving a race of creatures who can not coexist with other sentient species except to eat/parasitically breed with them is NOT a race of creatures you want to make smarter and stronger.

-Polaris


Ahh.  Yeah, she was right on that.  I can't believe so many people think the Architect wasn't an ancient magister after Corypheus.

#687
TEWR

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IanPolaris wrote...

What is the Harrowing? The harrowing is nothing more than throwing an unprepared mage into a Cage-Match with a demon in the fade and telling the Demon "free eats" and telling the mage, "good luck". It's amazing as many mages pass as they do.

-Polaris



The Circle's idea of the Harrowing is idiotic. Were they to learn from the Dalish (not necessarily forcing the Dalish to go to the Circle mind you, but just learn their Keepers' ways of dealing with demons, which I agreed with more) and were they to actually teach mages about demons more than just "Here. Have fun. And don't come back wearing a meatball flesh suit either!", the idea of the Harrowing would be better.

#688
IanPolaris

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Herr Uhl wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

What is the Harrowing? The harrowing is nothing more than throwing an unprepared mage into a Cage-Match with a demon in the fade and telling the Demon "free eats" and telling the mage, "good luck". It's amazing as many mages pass as they do.

-Polaris


I'd imagine that not trusting what you see in the fade is somewhere in their decade-ish long studies. So not completely unprepared.


Bethany was thrown in the harrowing cold, and from the ambient conversation in kirkwall, that doesn't seem to be uncommon.  Futhermore, the mage in Honnleth (forget his name off hand...should remember but I don't), complained bittterly to the first enchanter that the circle knows vitually nothing about demonic possession because the chantry won't let them study it.

Also no one knows what the Harrowing is until you pass the test and you are forbidden to tell others.

Sounds like no prep to me.

-Polaris

#689
TEWR

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Rifneno wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

I've always wondered... IanPolaris, what was Sigrun right about?


Old argument when DAA was new.  Sigrun was right about the Architect, i.e. giving a race of creatures who can not coexist with other sentient species except to eat/parasitically breed with them is NOT a race of creatures you want to make smarter and stronger.

-Polaris


Ahh.  Yeah, she was right on that.  I can't believe so many people think the Architect wasn't an ancient magister after Corypheus.



I think it's too soon to tell. I like to think that The Architect and his Disciples will assist the world in defending themselves from Corypheus and whatever minions follow him.

fun fact: apparently people worshipped Darkspawn at one point in time. I read that in a codex entry.

#690
IanPolaris

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Dave of Canada wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

What is the Harrowing? The harrowing is nothing more than throwing an unprepared mage into a Cage-Match with a demon in the fade and telling the Demon "free eats" and telling the mage, "good luck". It's amazing as many mages pass as they do.

-Polaris


Because they've been trained since childhood, the Harrowing is something they have to be prepared to face at a moment's notice. Throwing them into the Fade and forcing them to fight a demon (I don't know if Mouse was part of the Harrowing, if so... having to deal with their lies too, though it's interesting how it "helped" us) is probably one of the necessary things that Circles need to do.

If they fail the Harrowing, they would've failed if a demon was aggressive.



False.  The Harrowing is a secret.  The mages are NOT propared for it at all within nor is any demon lore taught in the circle other than the chantry approved basics.  It's a totally unprepared mage told to sink or swim.

The reason so many pass is because people don't (seem) to like to be possessed and there are limits to what a demon can do...at least when the veil is normal.

-Polaris

#691
TEWR

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IanPolaris wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

What is the Harrowing? The harrowing is nothing more than throwing an unprepared mage into a Cage-Match with a demon in the fade and telling the Demon "free eats" and telling the mage, "good luck". It's amazing as many mages pass as they do.

-Polaris


I'd imagine that not trusting what you see in the fade is somewhere in their decade-ish long studies. So not completely unprepared.


Bethany was thrown in the harrowing cold, and from the ambient conversation in kirkwall, that doesn't seem to be uncommon.  Futhermore, the mage in Honnleth (forget his name off hand...should remember but I don't), complained bittterly to the first enchanter that the circle knows vitually nothing about demonic possession because the chantry won't let them study it.

Also no one knows what the Harrowing is until you pass the test and you are forbidden to tell others.

Sounds like no prep to me.

-Polaris




To be fair, Bethany and Mage Hawke were trained by their father who was once a mage of the Circle.

#692
Herr Uhl

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The Circle's idea of the Harrowing is idiotic. Were they to learn from the Dalish (not necessarily forcing the Dalish to go to the Circle mind you, but just learn their Keepers' ways of dealing with demons, which I agreed with more) and were they to actually teach mages about demons more than just "Here. Have fun. And don't come back wearing a meatball flesh suit either!", the idea of the Harrowing would be better.


We've met two keepers in Dragon age. Both got pretty badly involved with spirits. I'm not sure if their ways are the best imaginable. but the circle can improve as well.

#693
Ryzaki

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...


To be fair, Bethany and Mage Hawke were trained by their father who was once a mage of the Circle.


to be even more fair she was an apostate and they had no way of knowing whether or not she was already possessed. 

#694
IanPolaris

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

What is the Harrowing? The harrowing is nothing more than throwing an unprepared mage into a Cage-Match with a demon in the fade and telling the Demon "free eats" and telling the mage, "good luck". It's amazing as many mages pass as they do.

-Polaris


The demon in the mage origin deliberately allowed us to leave. I wonder if there is some sort of arrangement with the demon in question. I've always found him almost sounding like he's giving us advice odd and fascinating.


The truth is I've always wondered about that myself.  I have always interpreted it as you are a one in a generation (perhaps 1 in 10 generation) mage potentially as powerful as the ancient magisters themselves, and the demon can sense this right away...and knows that the direct approach isn't going to fly....so it tries to get on your good side with some genuinely good advice.

In short he's your "best friend" always waiting to "help out" lest you forget your lesson.

Not canonical by any means.  Just my take on this particular harrowing.

-Polaris

#695
Morroian

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IanPolaris wrote...

Also no one knows what the Harrowing is until you pass the test and you are forbidden to tell others.

Sounds like no prep to me.

They would be trained to resist demonic possession which is some prep.

#696
IanPolaris

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Ryzaki wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...


To be fair, Bethany and Mage Hawke were trained by their father who was once a mage of the Circle.


to be even more fair she was an apostate and they had no way of knowing whether or not she was already possessed. 


We know that mages can test other mages for possession (see Anders and Merrill).

-Polaris

#697
Dave of Canada

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IanPolaris wrote...

Dave,

So you don't think a little child will miss her or her mother (or family) and you don't think it makes it more likely that a Desire demon would step in to "make it better"?

Seems sorta obvious to me.

-Polaris


It isn't obvious if you're considering the average mindset of the mages and the lifestyle they've been raised in, it's an entirely different experience than say... treating them like every other person from Thedas.

You'd also have to consider demons aren't likely that interested in the limited strength of an untrained child mage when there's other stronger individuals out there. Connor was a unique case, considering he was in a very good spot to cause some mayhem.

In addition to this, for the mages who lose their children and such, most Mages wouldn't care about relationships, most children would most likely be accidents in the case of Circle lovin'

#698
Herr Uhl

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IanPolaris wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

I'd imagine that not trusting what you see in the fade is somewhere in their decade-ish long studies. So not completely unprepared.


Bethany was thrown in the harrowing cold, and from the ambient conversation in kirkwall, that doesn't seem to be uncommon.  Futhermore, the mage in Honnleth (forget his name off hand...should remember but I don't), complained bittterly to the first enchanter that the circle knows vitually nothing about demonic possession because the chantry won't let them study it.

Also no one knows what the Harrowing is until you pass the test and you are forbidden to tell others.

Sounds like no prep to me.

-Polaris


I'm guessing there is a test you have to pass before getting the Harrowing. Which would be the reason that Jowan hasn't had his despite being in the circle longer than the PC.

Bethany passed said test, or was considered ready, and thus did the Harrowing.

#699
IanPolaris

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Morroian wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Also no one knows what the Harrowing is until you pass the test and you are forbidden to tell others.

Sounds like no prep to me.

They would be trained to resist demonic possession which is some prep.


I've seen no evidence of that and plenty of game evidence that says that any study of demons (other than the Chantry primer) is strictly forbidden.

-Polaris

#700
IanPolaris

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Herr Uhl wrote...

I'm guessing there is a test you have to pass before getting the Harrowing. Which would be the reason that Jowan hasn't had his despite being in the circle longer than the PC.

Bethany passed said test, or was considered ready, and thus did the Harrowing.


We know that Bethany was dragged before the First Echanter and Knight Commander by the Templars and forced to undergo her harrowing within hours of capture.

Doesn't sound like any prep to me.

-Polaris