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Will Sister Nightingale continue to be anti-mage?


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#701
phaonica

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Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Being an Andrastian doesn't necessarily mean supporting the organized institution and dogma of the Chantry. Just like there are many members of real world religons who might believe in their deities, but not the dogma or religous traditions currently institued.


True, I'm just saying that Leliana didn't entirely reject the Chantry either, so her being a seeker doesn't seem ooc to me.

That was merely Elthina's excuse for being lazy and neglecting her duties of her position.

Or she actually believes it, or its an inconsistant piece of lore. If Elthina can at all be seen as representative of Chantry dogma, then their beliefs are similar.

#702
Dave of Canada

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The Circle's idea of the Harrowing is idiotic. Were they to learn from the Dalish (not necessarily forcing the Dalish to go to the Circle mind you, but just learn their Keepers' ways of dealing with demons, which I agreed with more) and were they to actually teach mages about demons more than just "Here. Have fun. And don't come back wearing a meatball flesh suit either!", the idea of the Harrowing would be better.


Though when you're talking with Feynriel in Dragon Age 2, he claims that the Keeper's ways of handling it aren't that great. He claims that the demons are still plaguing him, yet when you've put him in Templar care he'll only be complaining about the Templar being arsefaces.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 15 août 2011 - 05:33 .


#703
KnightofPhoenix

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IanPolaris wrote...
The truth is I've always wondered about that myself.  I have always interpreted it as you are a one in a generation (perhaps 1 in 10 generation) mage potentially as powerful as the ancient magisters themselves, and the demon can sense this right away...and knows that the direct approach isn't going to fly....so it tries to get on your good side with some genuinely good advice.

In short he's your "best friend" always waiting to "help out" lest you forget your lesson.

Not canonical by any means.  Just my take on this particular harrowing.

-Polaris


Very interesting theory, and one I lean towards.
Too bad that was the last of that demon. I wish the mage origin had that particular demon stalk us throughout the game. Or at least show up in the Broken Circle (perhaps the same demon who possessed Uldred).

#704
IanPolaris

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Dave.

The only think obvious to me is that a mage is a human being (or elf) like any other and needs to be treated as such, especially children and especially when the consequences of not doing so are so....messy.

-Polaris

#705
TEWR

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Dave of Canada wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The Circle's idea of the Harrowing is idiotic. Were they to learn from the Dalish (not necessarily forcing the Dalish to go to the Circle mind you, but just learn their Keepers' ways of dealing with demons, which I agreed with more) and were they to actually teach mages about demons more than just "Here. Have fun. And don't come back wearing a meatball flesh suit either!", the idea of the Harrowing would be better.


Though when you're talking with Feynriel in Dragon Age 2, he claims that the Keeper's ways of handling it aren't that great. He claims that the demons are still plaguing him, yet when you've put him in Templar care he'll only be complaining about the Templar being ****s.



Feynriel's a Somniari, and they are incredibly powerful and unique mages.


Herr Uhl wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The Circle's idea of the Harrowing is idiotic. Were they to learn from the Dalish (not necessarily forcing the Dalish to go to the Circle mind you, but just learn their Keepers' ways of dealing with demons, which I agreed with more) and were they to actually teach mages about demons more than just "Here. Have fun. And don't come back wearing a meatball flesh suit either!", the idea of the Harrowing would be better.


We've met two keepers in Dragon age. Both got pretty badly involved with spirits. I'm not sure if their ways are the best imaginable. but the circle can improve as well.



Zathrian took the lady of the forest, who isn't actually a Fade Spirit, and bound her to a wolf. She's the forest incarnate.

Marethari was an idiot. Merrill however wasn't.


Ryzaki wrote...

to be even more fair she was an apostate and they had no way of knowing whether or not she was already possessed. 


I'm willing to bet they wanted her to get possessed so they could use that against apostates.

#706
Herr Uhl

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IanPolaris wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

I'm guessing there is a test you have to pass before getting the Harrowing. Which would be the reason that Jowan hasn't had his despite being in the circle longer than the PC.

Bethany passed said test, or was considered ready, and thus did the Harrowing.


We know that Bethany was dragged before the First Echanter and Knight Commander by the Templars and forced to undergo her harrowing within hours of capture.

Doesn't sound like any prep to me.

-Polaris


Hmm, not played a Bethany mage one. Might be the local "rules". Or protocol when handling apostates of a certain age.

I'm not sure.

Edit: I use "rules" as the Kirkwall circle seems to have many unorthodox ways.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 15 août 2011 - 05:35 .


#707
LobselVith8

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Rifneno wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

I've always wondered... IanPolaris, what was Sigrun right about?


Old argument when DAA was new.  Sigrun was right about the Architect, i.e. giving a race of creatures who can not coexist with other sentient species except to eat/parasitically breed with them is NOT a race of creatures you want to make smarter and stronger.

-Polaris


Ahh.  Yeah, she was right on that.  I can't believe so many people think the Architect wasn't an ancient magister after Corypheus.


It was an interesting (and long) discussion, even exploring the long term consequences of siding with or against the Architect, and the sentient darkspawn. It helped me decide what action I should take with the Architect, and the whole thread can be seen here.

#708
IanPolaris

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Dave of Canada wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The Circle's idea of the Harrowing is idiotic. Were they to learn from the Dalish (not necessarily forcing the Dalish to go to the Circle mind you, but just learn their Keepers' ways of dealing with demons, which I agreed with more) and were they to actually teach mages about demons more than just "Here. Have fun. And don't come back wearing a meatball flesh suit either!", the idea of the Harrowing would be better.


Though when you're talking with Feynriel in Dragon Age 2, he claims that the Keeper's ways of handling it aren't that great. He claims that the demons are still plaguing him, yet when you've put him in Templar care he'll only be complaining about the Templar being ****s.


Remember that Merethari herself says that her training methodes are designed for Dalish Elves and not humans, and that's been a problem (an understandable one).  Also bear in mind that Feynriel is a Dream-Mage and is thus absolutely unique in his potential control of the fade AND the fact that demons are specifically drawn to Dreamers far far more than for normal mages (and that most Dreamers go insane because of this).

In short, not a fair comparison at all.

-Polaris

#709
Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

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Dave of Canada wrote...


Unless you've got a bad family, your family is troubled or whatever. Family can cause emotional trauma / weakness quite easily. Remove it completely, raise somebody without it and they don't know what they are missing and the Circle becomes their family.



I'd suggest reading up on child development and human psychology here. Being ripped and seperated from family, and being completely cut off from society and normal development is almost asking for a mentally unstable, socially broken individual who is going to create problems.

Takings kids from their families is going to cause more emotional/psychological trauma and long term developmental damage. As well as hatred and bitterness towards the institution that did this. And surprise, look where it gets you: alot of pissed off, mentally unstable mages with buried resentment, which demons easily exploit,as we see. So, no, I disagree strongly here.


Which is entirely possible.
Circle Bethany has contact with Hawke and Leandra.
Gamlen is capable of sending mail to Bethany in the Circle.
Finn has his family come and visit in addition to bringing gifts.
Eamon visits Connor.



Eamon is a Noble with alot of pull. He has influence and sway most parents don;t have.

being able to write letters to, and visit Bethany, is more due to Hawke and family being wealthy, influential nobles with sway. other mages I encountered seemed to have been cut off from their families, not knowing where they are at.

Circles don't educate mages about their power or demons? The Harrowing is what, exactly?



A very hamfisted ritual that is the equvilant of taking a teenage kid from the city and dropping him in the woods full of hungry bears, and telling him to find his own way home. The Circle's education on demons is incredibly lacking, given that the Chantry still pushes very unrealistic rules and teachings that do not apply in the Fade. As well as their incorrect belief that spirits can be simply classified as "good" or bad".

If anything. I've seen the Circle's very limited, Chantry regulated education as one of the reasons their mages have so many problems.



Because there's no expectation to keep the child, nor do the usual mages support having children / long-term relationships. Desire Demons might step in, though there's a lot less chance of it happening. It's about minimizing risk, not eliminating it completely (which is impossible).



Nope, traumatizing and giving the kid a reason to hate his captors is basically creating the very fodder demons seek and exploit. As far as expectations to keep the kid, it varies. It has already been covered, the reasons mages generally avoid forming families, is because they know the templars or Chantry will destroy or exploit it.

So far, I'm yet to see anything that supports the current system, which is failed, broken, and dangerous, and responsible for creating more problems than it prevents.

#710
Dave of Canada

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Feynriel's a Somniari, and they are incredibly powerful and unique mages.


Which makes it worse, though.

The Dalish are teaching Feynriel and they know exactly what he is, therefore they know his potential and they have a book which belonged to a Dreamer. By all logic, he should flourish in this environment. Yet, demons plague him and he says the training isn't what he hoped it would be.

The Templar, which would kill him upon knowing what he is, train him exactly as any other mage. His only problem with the Templar is about how much they suck at being good hosts, he doesn't mention the demons plaguing him at all.

This suggests to me that either the Dalish suck at their teaching, the Templar are overpreparing their mages or they just didn't make Feynriel mention demons bothering him. That or the Templar's being poor hosts overshadow the threat of possession.

#711
TEWR

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I have to agree that the only way mages in the Circle of Kirkwall got to see family was if they had wealthy relatives.

Huon didn't get to see Nyssa (blegh, she was one ugly ass elf because she was balding)

Evelina didn't get to see her adopted children

Ella couldn't even go and see her parents.

#712
Herr Uhl

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Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

A very hamfisted ritual that is the equvilant of taking a teenage kid from the city and dropping him in the woods full of hungry bears, and telling him to find his own way home. The Circle's education on demons is incredibly lacking, given that the Chantry still pushes very unrealistic rules and teachings that do not apply in the Fade. As well as their incorrect belief that spirits can be simply classified as "good" or bad".

If anything. I've seen the Circle's very limited, Chantry regulated education as one of the reasons their mages have so many problems.


Not good or bad, but demons and the rest. How do you know this way is incorrect?

#713
hoorayforicecream

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Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

I'd suggest reading up on child development and human psychology here. Being ripped and seperated from family, and being completely cut off from society and normal development is almost asking for a mentally unstable, socially broken individual who is going to create problems.

Takings kids from their families is going to cause more emotional/psychological trauma and long term developmental damage. As well as hatred and bitterness towards the institution that did this. And surprise, look where it gets you: alot of pissed off, mentally unstable mages with buried resentment, which demons easily exploit,as we see. So, no, I disagree strongly here.


Are you saying that the kibbutzes around the world right are all full of mentally unstable, socially broken individuals?

That certainly doesn't seem like the case to me. :?

#714
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Dave of Canada wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Feynriel's a Somniari, and they are incredibly powerful and unique mages.


Which makes it worse, though.

The Dalish are teaching Feynriel and they know exactly what he is, therefore they know his potential and they have a book which belonged to a Dreamer. By all logic, he should flourish in this environment. Yet, demons plague him and he says the training isn't what he hoped it would be.

The Templar, which would kill him upon knowing what he is, train him exactly as any other mage. His only problem with the Templar is about how much they suck at being good hosts, he doesn't mention the demons plaguing him at all.

This suggests to me that either the Dalish suck at their teaching, the Templar are overpreparing their mages or they just didn't make Feynriel mention demons bothering him. That or the Templar's being poor hosts overshadow the threat of possession.


Feynriel compains very specifically that the Circle is unable to stop his nightmares, so I'm not sure where you get the idea that he is just fine and dandy with the exception of the templars.

Modifié par Queen-Of-Stuff, 15 août 2011 - 05:43 .


#715
Ryzaki

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IanPolaris wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...


To be fair, Bethany and Mage Hawke were trained by their father who was once a mage of the Circle.


to be even more fair she was an apostate and they had no way of knowing whether or not she was already possessed. 


We know that mages can test other mages for possession (see Anders and Merrill).

-Polaris


Nope. Try asking Bethany. She can't tell. 

Only mages who deal with demons or are abominations can tell. Neither of which would be encouraged in the circle. 

#716
IanPolaris

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hoorayforicecream wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

I'd suggest reading up on child development and human psychology here. Being ripped and seperated from family, and being completely cut off from society and normal development is almost asking for a mentally unstable, socially broken individual who is going to create problems.

Takings kids from their families is going to cause more emotional/psychological trauma and long term developmental damage. As well as hatred and bitterness towards the institution that did this. And surprise, look where it gets you: alot of pissed off, mentally unstable mages with buried resentment, which demons easily exploit,as we see. So, no, I disagree strongly here.


Are you saying that the kibbutzes around the world right are all full of mentally unstable, socially broken individuals?

That certainly doesn't seem like the case to me. :?


The kibbutzes have drawn a fair amount of criticism actually, and it's hardly the same thing as a bunch of thugs with swords literally tearing children from mother's breasts and then wondering why mages aren't grateful.....

-Polaris

#717
Herr Uhl

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Ryzaki wrote...

Only mages who deal with demons or are abominations can tell. Neither of which would be encouraged in the circle. 


Considering the summoning sciences quest, some dabbling in spirits is encouraged.

#718
Rifneno

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I have to agree that the only way mages in the Circle of Kirkwall got to see family was if they had wealthy relatives.

Huon didn't get to see Nyssa (blegh, she was one ugly ass elf because she was balding)

Evelina didn't get to see her adopted children

Ella couldn't even go and see her parents.


You're overanalyzing.  It's this simple: the Kirkwall Circle doesn't make any damned sense.  That's just all there is to it.  Emile's parents haven't seen him since he was a child, but clearly they still care for him.  They don't outright say they couldn't visit him, but it's the only logical conclusion.  Meanwhile, Grace gets to wander the courtyard.  If you listen closely you can kind of hear the faint, otherworldly cries of the eternally damned when she's within a foot of you, but I'm sure that's just because she's two fifths kossith or something, let her have the run of the place.  There's no rhyme of reason to the DA2 Circle's rules.

Edit: I am to typing what Kirkwall is to intelligence.

Modifié par Rifneno, 15 août 2011 - 05:47 .


#719
IanPolaris

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Ryzaki wrote...

Only mages who deal with demons or are abominations can tell. Neither of which would be encouraged in the circle. 


Bethany says she doesn't know how, but there is nothing in the lore that says you have to be a bloodmage or abomination to tell.....and 'technically' Anders isn't an abomination...and certainly what he describes has nothing to do with his spirit nature.  He's attacking the subject and forcing any demon to defend itself.  Fairly straightforward if potentially brutal.

-Polaris

#720
Dave of Canada

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Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

Feynriel compains very specifically that the Circle is unable to stop his nightmares, so I'm not sure where you get the idea that he is just fine and dandy with the exception of the templars.


Which act? Talking with him in Act 1 and he's repeating one conversation that the Circle is worse than he imagined.

#721
Dave of Canada

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IanPolaris wrote...

He's attacking the subject and forcing any demon to defend itself.  Fairly straightforward if potentially brutal.

-Polaris


I'm honestly doubting throwing a rock at a mage is a good way to find out if he's possessed.

*throws rocks at Anders*

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 15 août 2011 - 05:47 .


#722
TEWR

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Herr Uhl wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Only mages who deal with demons or are abominations can tell. Neither of which would be encouraged in the circle. 


Considering the summoning sciences quest, some dabbling in spirits is encouraged.



One thing I liked about that quest was how it showed that the Fade wasn't just home to benevolent spirits and malicious demons.

#723
IanPolaris

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Dave of Canada wrote...

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

Feynriel compains very specifically that the Circle is unable to stop his nightmares, so I'm not sure where you get the idea that he is just fine and dandy with the exception of the templars.


Which act? Talking with him in Act 1 and he's repeating one conversation that the Circle is worse than he imagined.


And if you talk with him about the circle before hand, you get a pretty dire picture of what he's expecting.  The fact is it's even worse than that says volumes.

-Polaris

#724
Ryzaki

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IanPolaris wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Only mages who deal with demons or are abominations can tell. Neither of which would be encouraged in the circle. 


Bethany says she doesn't know how, but there is nothing in the lore that says you have to be a bloodmage or abomination to tell.....and 'technically' Anders isn't an abomination...and certainly what he describes has nothing to do with his spirit nature.  He's attacking the subject and forcing any demon to defend itself.  Fairly straightforward if potentially brutal.

-Polaris


There's nothing in the lore that says you can sense demons without said knowledge either. 

...Anders *is* an abomination. He uses some technique that he knows if a demon was possessing Keran it would defend itself against that doesn't harm Keran in the least. I highly doubt that was a normal attack.We don't know if he learned that from elsewhere or if he learned it from Justice (the technique at least).  

Modifié par Ryzaki, 15 août 2011 - 05:49 .


#725
Herr Uhl

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Only mages who deal with demons or are abominations can tell. Neither of which would be encouraged in the circle. 


Considering the summoning sciences quest, some dabbling in spirits is encouraged.


One thing I liked about that quest was how it showed that the Fade wasn't just home to benevolent spirits and malicious demons.


No, there are spirits, and some of those are demons. They're discouraged from trusting either.