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[Torax]

jlb524 wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Justice/Anders is a prime example. Wynne's little spirit buddy is another. Spirits are spirits. The only realistic division between the two I see are spirirts that are dangerous, and spirits that aren't.

I'd say all spirits are potentially dangerous to mortals given their nature.

I think the time when they seem to become dangerous is when they skirt the line away from observing to the point of wanting to take action for themselves. I.E. Justice or the average demon who wishes to experience things for themselves. Even a spirit like Valor could become dangerous. Imagine what a spirit of Valor would do if it inhabited a body and found a world where people didn't fight for what they believed and wished to prove themselves in battles of might or witt. Would that spirit of Valor overstep their bounds and force others to fight?

[Addai]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

A very hamfisted ritual that is the equvilant of taking a teenage kid from the city and dropping him in the woods full of hungry bears, and telling him to find his own way home. The Circle's education on demons is incredibly lacking, given that the Chantry still pushes very unrealistic rules and teachings that do not apply in the Fade. As well as their incorrect belief that spirits can be simply classified as "good" or bad".

If anything. I've seen the Circle's very limited, Chantry regulated education as one of the reasons their mages have so many problems.

Not good or bad, but demons and the rest. How do you know this way is incorrect?

Justice/Anders is a prime example. Wynne's little spirit buddy is another. Spirits are spirits. The only realistic division between the two I see are spirirts that are dangerous, and spirits that aren't.

Too much even of a good thing ends up bad.  That's true of human virtues, whether embodied in spirits or not.

As for Sister Nightingale, she can step right off.  Who gives a crap what she thinks.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
Too much even of a good thing ends up bad.  That's true of human virtues, whether embodied in spirits or not.

100% agreed. There needs to be a spirit of moderation.

Though could one be excessively moderate? Hmmm.

[CrimsonZephyr]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
Too much even of a good thing ends up bad.  That's true of human virtues, whether embodied in spirits or not.

100% agreed. There needs to be a spirit of moderation.

Though could one be excessively moderate? Hmmm.

I guess it could be a spirit that operates on the golden mean fallacy, that the mid-point between two extremes is always the best choice?

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Addai67 wrote...

Too much even of a good thing ends up bad.  That's true of human virtues, whether embodied in spirits or not.

Yep. hence why I see the difference as an artifical one, one generally practiced and endorsed by the Chantry.

A desire demon who is not really interested in entering the mortal realm, but instead, feeding off what she sees in the dreams of mortals, is less a danger than say, a spirit of faith or valor that has decided it wants to enter the mortal realm and "improve it".

As for Sister Nightingale, she can step right off.  Who gives a crap what she thinks.

I don't. leliana's opinions meant little to me in DAO, they mean less in DA2. But, given that there are a number of people who did import a Warden that had romanced leliana, or imported a save where they kileld her, I can see why people are quite pissed, or upset, or really want to know what the hell is going on, and why the retcon, in the case of dead Leliana coming back.

But even more disappointing for those who romanced her, and believed that their epilogue slides, especially for their LI, might matter.

[Zjarcal]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
Too much even of a good thing ends up bad.  That's true of human virtues, whether embodied in spirits or not.

100% agreed. There needs to be a spirit of moderation.

Though could one be excessively moderate? Hmmm.

A spirit that goes "too much... not enough.... too much... not enough"... yeah, I think one could be excessively moderate.

[phaonica]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

100% agreed. There needs to be a spirit of moderation.

Though could one be excessively moderate? Hmmm.

I guess it could be a spirit that operates on the golden mean fallacy, that the mid-point between two extremes is always the best choice?

Such a one could be accussed of being indecisive.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Yea I am thinking that's more a spirit of indecisiveness than moderation. But hey, like vengeance is the "dark side" of Justice. Maybe indecisiveness is the "dark side" of moderation.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 15 août 2011 - 07:34 .

[Sepewrath]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

As for Sister Nightingale, she can step right off.  Who gives a crap what she thinks.

I don't. leliana's opinions meant little to me in DAO, they mean less in DA2. But, given that there are a number of people who did import a Warden that had romanced leliana, or imported a save where they kileld her, I can see why people are quite pissed, or upset, or really want to know what the hell is going on, and why the retcon, in the case of dead Leliana coming back.

But even more disappointing for those who romanced her, and believed that their epilogue slides, especially for their LI, might matter.

In other words, people are upset that a character doesn't believe in what God AKA the Warden believes in. Even though said character never once showed themselves to be against the Circle system or to be come kind of firm supporter of mages. What because she had sex with a mage, that means she is pro mage freedom? And people couldn't have possible thought those slides meant anything once Awakening came out. Obviously if you imported your Warden, it contradicts many of those outcomes.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Sepewrath wrote...



In other words, people are upset that a character doesn't believe in what God AKA the Warden believes in. Even though said character never once showed themselves to be against the Circle system or to be come kind of firm supporter of mages. What because she had sex with a mage, that means she is pro mage freedom? And people couldn't have possible thought those slides meant anything once Awakening came out. Obviously if you imported your Warden, it contradicts many of those outcomes.

Doesn't have to be a mage, nor am I talking about whether or not she's anti-Mage. She's working directly for the Divine and the Chantry, an organization that counts more than just mages amongst the enemies it has created. A Dalish Warden wouldn't be any more thrilled than a mage Warden to discover this change. And depending on the type of Cousland one plays, even they might not be terribly thrilled, especially if they see the Chantry as little more than a mouthpiece of Orlesian policy and expansion.

And beyond that, it seems that leliana has pretty much lied to the Warden about alot of important things. Including, oh, I dunno, the whole reason she wanted to follow the Warden in the first place? No, I don't think any Warden, regardless of origin, would be happy to discover leliana had some very big alterior motives that she never fully came clean with, even the possibility that for some reason, she was sent as some sort of Chantry plant/spy. it's not out of the realm of possibility, given the speculation over her Seekers amulet she wears when you first meet her.

So yeah, I understand why people are pissed.

[LobselVith8]

Torax wrote...

I see another troll bait of a thread is well over 30 pages already. Can't you guys ever find something new to talk about instead of the same old Chantry is evil and bioware hates mages diatribe?

Isn't this the same claim you made when I asked (at the Merrill thread) how the Dalish clans across Thedas would view Merrill if she sided with a pro-mage Hawke, since the Champion becomes a legend to the mages by defying the templars?

Torax wrote...

All that is true is that Lob will end up waiting a few days and making another thread about a subject he's typed before in a feign to get others to talk about the subject he and so many others have loved talk about for years.

The last thread I made addressed my issue with Legacy's lack of significant choices and the narrative that lead to two choices with the same outcome in light of Laidlaw's "Thank You" thread that addressed these two aspects as flaws in the main game. The last threads I started questioned who Nathaniel's allies are if the Architect has been killed (as he makes reference to them even when explicitly stating that The Warden killed the Architect), whether the DLC will properly allow us to address what we would personally like (our respective) Hawke to do, why our family members don't share our skin tone for some builds (like mine with a tanned Hawke), and why we aren't allowed to delete our Dragon Age 2 profiles (especially since it overlaps with old profiles that are no longer being used). It seems more like you're looking to start an argument like you did at the Merrill thread.

Torax wrote...

It's not new. The conversations on Leiliana were going on just as DA2 came out and even more about the announcement she would be in DA2.

I'm not the only person who viewed Leliana's scene in "Faith" as being anti-mage. If you disagree, you're welcome to provide your opinion on the matter.

Torax wrote...

That alone ruffled feathers. It was just his excuse to have another thread to talk about the evils of the Chantry and the writers for the others that want to villify them.

This is exactly what you claimed when I was asking how the Dalish would view Merrill if she sided with a pro-mage Hawke, even when I kept repeating that my question had nothing to do with any opinions on the Chantry or the Order of Templars.

Torax wrote...

Making up and filling in their own words to a conversation that didn't elude anything of the opinion of the messenger directly, just her thoughts on how her report back home could be interpreted.

I addressed what Leliana actually said in "Faith," as have others in this thread. Not everyone agrees about Leliana's appearance in "Faith," but you shouldn't villify people simply for having a different opinion than you do. I didn't like the "new" Leliana that appeared in Dragon Age 2, and coupled with the implication that she lied to The Warden (from the DLC Leliana's Song) it makes me feel that the person The Warden got to know in Ferelden was a facade. Maybe you feel differently, and you're certainly entitled to your opinion.

Torax wrote...

btw that whole "Fall to magic" statement. It did fall to magic. When the companion that the mage loves love so much became a Maleficarum and blew the chantry into a thousand pieces and set most of Kirkwall on fire. Yeah that that is was when it fell to magic.

When Leliana is addressing groups that want autonomy from the Chantry, addressing that they are "tolerated," and then goes to say Kirkwall can't fall to magic, it sounds to me like she's talking about the mages gaining autonomy, since she's not addressing Kirkwall falling to the grasp of the Resolutionists or anything like that. It's also a little difficult to take her seriously about the Resolutionists being responsible for all the troubles in the city-state when Hawke has witnessed illegal tranquility, a templar threatening a child mage with tranquility and rape for trying to see her mother, a templar admitting she tortured a child hunter of the Dalish, hearing mages say they are beaten if they speak to civilians, hearing mages discuss they are going to be made tranquil illegally on Alrik's orders, hearing Kerras tell his men to "spare the pretty one," listen as Alain admits he's being raped by templars, and watch as a woman pleads for Meredith's death squad not to kill her simply because she fed her tortured and starving mage cousin. I don't see how this kind of unrest is being caused by the Resolutionists, and it makes Leliana look inept to contradict the reality of the situation.

Also, Leliana seems very cold and detached when she mentions the Exalted March - which will involve the mass murder of countless people. If Hawke is listening to Leliana, her claim also doesn't hold water. Kirkwall was under a dictatorship to Knight-Commander Meredith, but Leliana was blaming the mages for the unrest? Especially on a pro-mage Hawke run where he publicly condemned Meredith, this doesn't make sense because the commoners, the nobles, the mages, and even some templars want Meredith removed from her position, which is causing unrest among the people.

Torax wrote...

When their belove apostate ex-grey warden did that. But they'll never admitt it and won't accept it. That is when magic sent the city into turmoil beyond hope for that circle and the city state in general.

I guess the Knight-Commander ordering the genocide of hundreds of men, women, and children for an act they had no part in has nothing to do with that?

Torax wrote...

What Leliana feared would happen and more importantly what she feared was the response when things finally would get that far. All Anders' doing at the end.

All Anders' doing? You're forgetting about Meredith, who acted as Knight-Commander while rape, torture, and illegal tranquility was going on in her administration, which resulted in the illegal tranquility of Karl that led to Anders and his involvement with the mage underground, and she became a dictator over the entire city-state for three years while the Grand Cleric and Hawke (because the Plot Dictates) did nothing to improve the situation. That's hardly all Anders' doing.

Torax wrote...

Could have happened without his help? Of course. But he is the one that did it. His fault. Otherwise it would have just been a crazy old women crying wolf. Anders proved her right in his own twisted form of Justice that made him as evil and malevolent as Loghain. That is not a good thing...

I don't see Loghain as evil, and the Knight-Commander decided to throw Kirkwall into turmoil by having her templars try to murder every single mage in Kirkwall because of an act none of them had any part in - instead of arresting the one single person responsible (who was standing right in front of her, no less), she orders the murder of innocent people. Templars tried to kill mages, the mages were defending themselves, and it was Guard-Captain Aveline who protected the civilians with her guards.

[Kulyok]

I think that when several people independently start drawing the same conclusion after a certain piece of dialogue, there might be something in it. Even Alistair recognized Meredith as the main threat - it was surprising that all Leliana was talking about was a group of "bad" mages., and nothing about "bad" templars. I think that if Leliana used more neutral terms(that she came to investigate, that they were all concerned, that the Divine did not want to see a war), without anything remotely like "tolerated" or "divine right", then our reaction might have been a lot calmer.

Origins provided us with a lot of choices, after all. In some of the playthroughs, Leliana was a lover of a Blood Mage Warden - it's natural to think that through this bond of love, she would wish other mages to be free, like her lover. Besides, there was that incident in the Circle Tower when Leliana persuaded the Warden to let a female blood mage escape, knowing that the woman, indeed, was an associate of Uldred, and, judging by her views, was a clear Resolutionist, or at least close to it. In DA:O, we could see what was in her head - we spent a lot of time with her. In DA2, we only have her words, and to the mage Hawkes(and some Wardens), they sound a little cold.

[Monica21]

Torax wrote...
I think the time when they seem to become dangerous is when they skirt the line away from observing to the point of wanting to take action for themselves. I.E. Justice or the average demon who wishes to experience things for themselves. Even a spirit like Valor could become dangerous. Imagine what a spirit of Valor would do if it inhabited a body and found a world where people didn't fight for what they believed and wished to prove themselves in battles of might or witt. Would that spirit of Valor overstep their bounds and force others to fight?

Well, Justice was forced from the Fade and didn't have a purpose. He had a body, he had Kristoff's memories, and he decided to defeat the darkspawn because it was justifiable to do so. Anders didn't just agree to be possessed, he was basically agreeing to give Justice a home and didn't know that his own personality would warp the spirit.

I don't think Justice was dangerous at all, but the spirit was essentially destroyed after inhabiting Anders.

[Monica21]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Doesn't have to be a mage, nor am I talking about whether or not she's anti-Mage. She's working directly for the Divine and the Chantry, an organization that counts more than just mages amongst the enemies it has created. A Dalish Warden wouldn't be any more thrilled than a mage Warden to discover this change. And depending on the type of Cousland one plays, even they might not be terribly thrilled, especially if they see the Chantry as little more than a mouthpiece of Orlesian policy and expansion.

And beyond that, it seems that leliana has pretty much lied to the Warden about alot of important things. Including, oh, I dunno, the whole reason she wanted to follow the Warden in the first place? No, I don't think any Warden, regardless of origin, would be happy to discover leliana had some very big alterior motives that she never fully came clean with, even the possibility that for some reason, she was sent as some sort of Chantry plant/spy. it's not out of the realm of possibility, given the speculation over her Seekers amulet she wears when you first meet her.

So yeah, I understand why people are pissed.

I think that's a lot of supposition about two minutes of dialogue. Yes, she's working for the Divine but she's also worried about instability and war. How do you figure that she lied to the Warden? She gave you much more cause to believe that during Origins. She appears 10 years later and suddenly she was a Chantry plant back when she was camping in the woods with you? 

I don't buy it. I don't know what Leliana's goals are and I don't know what the Divine's goals are, but I'm not going to make assumptions based on so little.

[Rifneno]

Monica21 wrote...

I think that's a lot of supposition about two minutes of dialogue. Yes, she's working for the Divine but she's also worried about instability and war. How do you figure that she lied to the Warden? She gave you much more cause to believe that during Origins. She appears 10 years later and suddenly she was a Chantry plant back when she was camping in the woods with you? 

I don't buy it. I don't know what Leliana's goals are and I don't know what the Divine's goals are, but I'm not going to make assumptions based on so little.

Exactly where do we draw the line at being able to draw a conclusion? Back when Fox News was blaring "Mass Effect, an alien rape simulator? Stay tuned for the unresearched idiocy hour!" were we not allowed to draw a conclusion until the 15 minute mark?

So Leliana came with an amulet called a "Seeker's Circle." In DA2, we find out that a "seeker" is what the Divine calls her secret agents, that Leliana is one, and she has a much different demeanor. ... Oh yeah, we're totally leaping to conclusions here. Don't worry if you don't want to buy it. It's sold out.

[Xilizhra]

The Divine's goals seem to be both fairly obvious and fairly evil. Leliana... I'm willing to accept a lot of doubt about her, but that's mostly because I love her and don't want her to have fallen so far.

[Herr Uhl]

Xilizhra wrote...

The Divine's goals seem to be both fairly obvious and fairly evil. Leliana... I'm willing to accept a lot of doubt about her, but that's mostly because I love her and don't want her to have fallen so far.

What obvious goals are these, apart from sustaining and expanding the chantry?

[Xilizhra]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The Divine's goals seem to be both fairly obvious and fairly evil. Leliana... I'm willing to accept a lot of doubt about her, but that's mostly because I love her and don't want her to have fallen so far.

What obvious goals are these, apart from sustaining and expanding the chantry?

That would be it, which includes continuing to sublimate the mages.

[TEWR]

Xilizhra wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The Divine's goals seem to be both fairly obvious and fairly evil. Leliana... I'm willing to accept a lot of doubt about her, but that's mostly because I love her and don't want her to have fallen so far.

What obvious goals are these, apart from sustaining and expanding the chantry?

That would be it, which includes continuing to sublimate the mages.

My pet theory is that she's an incredibly anti-mage mage who worked her way up to the position of Divine to further her anti-mage agenda.

Not likely to happen, but I'd like it if it did and if it was done right.

[Herr Uhl]

Xilizhra wrote...

That would be it, which includes continuing to sublimate the mages.

I think she's been a firm supporter of the chantry for a good while, including DAO. So that isn't really falling very far in my eyes.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

My pet theory is that she's an incredibly anti-mage mage who worked her way up to the position of Divine to further her anti-mage agenda.

Not likely to happen, but I'd like it if it did and if it was done right.

That's kind of out of left field.

[tmp7704]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

100% agreed. There needs to be a spirit of moderation.

Though could one be excessively moderate? Hmmm.

[KnightofPhoenix]

I have no idea who that is, but he does look like an excessive moderate.

[Herr Uhl]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I have no idea who that is, but he does look like an excessive moderate.

The neutral president.

[Monica21]

Rifneno wrote...
Exactly where do we draw the line at being able to draw a conclusion? Back when Fox News was blaring "Mass Effect, an alien rape simulator? Stay tuned for the unresearched idiocy hour!" were we not allowed to draw a conclusion until the 15 minute mark?

Nah, if you stumble across Fox News you should know enough to change channels.

So Leliana came with an amulet called a "Seeker's Circle." In DA2, we find out that a "seeker" is what the Divine calls her secret agents, that Leliana is one, and she has a much different demeanor. ... Oh yeah, we're totally leaping to conclusions here. Don't worry if you don't want to buy it. It's sold out.

What I'm saying is that Leliana is a bard. Okay? A bard. She's a spy and a liar. You have no idea what her motivations are, why she's a Seeker, or what she's doing as a member of the Chantry. It's all speculation and Leliana Haterz based on a few minutes of dialogue and an amulet and I think that's ridiculous. And yes, you are leaping to conclusions. Do you want to buy a mat?

Modifié par Monica21, 16 août 2011 - 04:02 .

[IanPolaris]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

That would be it, which includes continuing to sublimate the mages.

I think she's been a firm supporter of the chantry for a good while, including DAO. So that isn't really falling very far in my eyes.

Actually no she hasn't at least she wasn't in DAO.  Lelianna was always devout towards the Maker, and had a highly personal take on his worship, but that made her a supporter of Andraste and the Maker, not the Chantry.  Indeed many of Lelianna's views are considered openly heretical by the Chantry (and we are told she was disciplined before by the Chantry for having them).  She certainly doesn't support Chantry dogma in saying all blood mages must die, *rwar*, for instance.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

My pet theory is that she's an incredibly anti-mage mage who worked her way up to the position of Divine to further her anti-mage agenda.

Not likely to happen, but I'd like it if it did and if it was done right.

That's kind of out of left field.

Not really.  The is open speculation, after all, that Andraste herself may have been a mage.

-Polaris