968 réponses à ce sujet

[Herr Uhl]

IanPolaris wrote...

Actually no she hasn't at least she wasn't in DAO.  Lelianna was always devout towards the Maker, and had a highly personal take on his worship, but that made her a supporter of Andraste and the Maker, not the Chantry.  Indeed many of Lelianna's views are considered openly heretical by the Chantry (and we are told she was disciplined before by the Chantry for having them).  She certainly doesn't support Chantry dogma in saying all blood mages must die, *rwar*, for instance.

She wants to change the chantry on some points, yes. How is she supposed to do that better than as an assisstant to the divine?

IanPolaris wrote...

Herruhl wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

My pet theory is that she's an incredibly anti-mage mage who worked her way up to the position of Divine to further her anti-mage agenda.

Not likely to happen, but I'd like it if it did and if it was done right.

That's kind of out of left field.

Not really.  The is open speculation, after all, that Andraste herself may have been a mage.

-Polaris

There has not been a single iota to suggest that she is a mage. I see it as kind of crackpot that she is a mage that hates mages and thus rose to the highest position in the Chantry to hate them even more. That she even hates mages (outside of wanting circles) is something you have to make a stretch to assume.

That Andraste may be a mage is supported by some in game evidence in the form of documents. I say that calling everyone and their uncles old god babies as this forum is prone to do is kind of crackpot as well.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 16 août 2011 - 04:18 .

[dragonflight288]

I personally haven't seen anything in-game that suggests she is anti-mage. Her comments on Kirkwall falling to magic may simply be how the larger population would see it should it fall to the resolutionists.

And being so high up in the Chantry Hierarchy, I can easily see her having to be exceptionally careful over what she says about her own opinions. Especially in a time-bomb like Kirkwall.

And we don't know how long she was in Kirkwall, only that she wanted to arrange a meeting with Elthina's representatives, leaked out her presence, sat back and watched what happened.

I honestly don't see how people call her a bad spy when most of what she says is actually incredibly vague and we don't know everything she knows. She only told us what was relevant to us.

1. Get Elthina out of there.
2. The identity of our attackers.
3. The Divine is considering action...although what action she will take is vague at best.

Everything else is all supposition.

[IanPolaris]

Herr Uhl wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Actually no she hasn't at least she wasn't in DAO.  Lelianna was always devout towards the Maker, and had a highly personal take on his worship, but that made her a supporter of Andraste and the Maker, not the Chantry.  Indeed many of Lelianna's views are considered openly heretical by the Chantry (and we are told she was disciplined before by the Chantry for having them).  She certainly doesn't support Chantry dogma in saying all blood mages must die, *rwar*, for instance.

She wants to change the chantry on some points, yes. How is she supposed to do that better than as an assisstant to the divine?

The Lelianna that we knew (or thought we knew) in DAO would have put up with someone like Meredith for about 0.5 seconds before wanting to do something about her.  In DA2 that is noticably lacking (especially since AS Seeker, Lels could have Meredith arrested and killed on the Divine's own authority).

IanPolaris wrote...

Herruhl wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

My pet theory is that she's an incredibly anti-mage mage who worked her way up to the position of Divine to further her anti-mage agenda.

Not likely to happen, but I'd like it if it did and if it was done right.

That's kind of out of left field.

Not really.  The is open speculation, after all, that Andraste herself may have been a mage.

-Polaris

There has not been a single iota to suggest that she is a mage. I see it as kind of crackpot that she is a mage that hates mages and thus rose to the highest position in the Chantry to hate them even more. That she even hates mages (outside of wanting circles) is something you have to make a stretch to assume.

That Andraste may be a mage is supported by some in game evidence in the form of documents. I say that calling everyone and their uncles old god babies as this forum is prone to do is kind of crackpot as well.

It was a speculation that the Divine might be a secret apostate.  I agree that there isn't any solid evidence for it, but that doesn't mean it's impossible as a simple speculation.

-Polaris

[dragonflight288]

Rumors and gossip are like wild weeds. They grow like crazy and soon theories fly left and right. I keep my opinions and arguments based on in-game evidence. My own thoughts are above a couple a posts.

[Cody]

Herr Uhl wrote...

There has not been a single iota to suggest that she is a mage. I see it as kind of crackpot that she is a mage that hates mages and thus rose to the highest position in the Chantry to hate them even more. That she even hates mages (outside of wanting circles) is something you have to make a stretch to assume.

There has never been anything that has said Andraste hated mages. She fought against Tevinter yes, but even then it was never even implied that she had hated them either.

Modifié par CodyMelch, 16 août 2011 - 07:15 .

[IanPolaris]

CodyMelch wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

There has not been a single iota to suggest that she is a mage. I see it as kind of crackpot that she is a mage that hates mages and thus rose to the highest position in the Chantry to hate them even more. That she even hates mages (outside of wanting circles) is something you have to make a stretch to assume.

There has never been anything that has said Andraste hated mages. She fought against Tevinter yes, but even then it was never even implied that she had hated them either.

Indeed, the circles were created long after Andrasted was dead and burned.  In fact some forget that the Chantry is only one of many Cults of Andraste that happened to get the backing of the powerful Orlesian Empire, and some (such as the Haven Cult) actually are highly pro-mage.

-Polaris

[Torax]

The only thing that could be true is the claim that Andraste said "Magic is a curse" but it is most likely taken out of context to her actually application of that statement. Taken out of context by those that truly fear magic or in particular those that use power to control the rest of society such as Tevinter. That doesn't necessarily mean that Andraste hated all mages and magic in general. That is an indictment of the fearful that magic in general is wrong and unnatural. Would not mean either way if Andraste hated mages or was one herself. There truly isn't evidence for either. Just that she hated the oppressing Tevinter Magisters.

[IanPolaris]

Torax wrote...

The only thing that could be true is the claim that Andraste said "Magic is a curse" but it is most likely taken out of context to her actually application of that statement. Taken out of context by those that truly fear magic or in particular those that use power to control the rest of society such as Tevinter. That doesn't necessarily mean that Andraste hated all mages and magic in general. That is an indictment of the fearful that magic in general is wrong and unnatural. Would not mean either way if Andraste hated mages or was one herself. There truly isn't evidence for either. Just that she hated the oppressing Tevinter Magisters.

That's particularly noteworthy when you consider that Andraste also said, "Magic is a gift of the Maker" and is one of the few pro-mage parts of the Chant of Light that the Chantry hasn't (yet) edited out.

-Polaris

[Torax]

IanPolaris wrote...

Torax wrote...

The only thing that could be true is the claim that Andraste said "Magic is a curse" but it is most likely taken out of context to her actually application of that statement. Taken out of context by those that truly fear magic or in particular those that use power to control the rest of society such as Tevinter. That doesn't necessarily mean that Andraste hated all mages and magic in general. That is an indictment of the fearful that magic in general is wrong and unnatural. Would not mean either way if Andraste hated mages or was one herself. There truly isn't evidence for either. Just that she hated the oppressing Tevinter Magisters.

That's particularly noteworthy when you consider that Andraste also said, "Magic is a gift of the Maker" and is one of the few pro-mage parts of the Chant of Light that the Chantry hasn't (yet) edited out.

-Polaris

It's because it's like the Bible as it is now. Constantly used out of context and just select passages that support a stance. While ignoring the rest of it that doesn't fit the argument. Happens all over. But basically it's that Andraste doesn't necessarily hate mages or like them. She could be just indifferent. We have no way to know for sure since evidence doesn't answer to it directly. Just like trying to claim Adralla was truly a blood mage? Some can assume she was or not. Either way we have no evidence for certain. Only that she was a mage in Tevinter that earned the ire of others for working on a resistence spell against blood magic. Since we can only go on what is given to us. The rest is assumptions and leaps and nothing more. I just always get surprised at how some take said fictional opinions and theories as fact. I get even more surprised when it's so polarized to the point that some how there isn't even a middle ground. Especially if it's about theories about a fictional scenario in a fictional story within a game.

[Wulfram]

Torax wrote...
 Just like trying to claim Adralla was truly a blood mage? Some can assume she was or not. Either way we have no evidence for certain. Only that she was a mage in Tevinter that earned the ire of others for working on a resistence spell against blood magic.

We can't even confidently say that, because Wynne gives a totally different account if you ask her about the Litany.

[tmp7704]

IanPolaris wrote...

That's particularly noteworthy when you consider that Andraste also said, "Magic is a gift of the Maker" and is one of the few pro-mage parts of the Chant of Light that the Chantry hasn't (yet) edited out.

Considering we know next to nothing when it comes to the content of entire chant of light, and what was (and what wasn't) actually edited out of it... there's nothing noteworthy about this. It's based on pure speculation.

[Cody]

tmp7704 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

That's particularly noteworthy when you consider that Andraste also said, "Magic is a gift of the Maker" and is one of the few pro-mage parts of the Chant of Light that the Chantry hasn't (yet) edited out.

Considering we know next to nothing when it comes to the content of entire chant of light, and what was (and what wasn't) actually edited out of it... there's nothing noteworthy about this. It's based on pure speculation.

Untrue, we do know a lot of the verses of the chant (http://dragonage.wik.../Chant_of_Light) and we do know from codex entries that much of it has been edited out. Such as Shartan for example. (See: http://dragonage.wik...om/wiki/Shartan)

[tmp7704]

CodyMelch wrote...

Untrue, we do know a lot of the verses of the chant (http://dragonage.wik.../Chant_of_Light) and we do know from codex entries that much of it has been edited out. Such as Shartan for example. (See: http://dragonage.wik...om/wiki/Shartan)

Considering it takes weeks to recite full version of the chant (and that's just the current version, nevermind the older ones which weren't as trimmed down)  the few verses we were shown are hardly something i'd call "a lot". It's like saying we know a lot of the bible because someone got a hold of the first page.

Similarly, being aware of single edit tells us nothing about how much was edited out overall, and what was the actual content.

[Cody]

tmp7704 wrote...

CodyMelch wrote...

Untrue, we do know a lot of the verses of the chant (http://dragonage.wik.../Chant_of_Light) and we do know from codex entries that much of it has been edited out. Such as Shartan for example. (See: http://dragonage.wik...om/wiki/Shartan)

Considering it takes weeks to recite full version of the chant (and that's just the current version, nevermind the older ones which weren't as trimmed down)  the few verses we were shown are hardly something i'd call "a lot". It's like saying we know a lot of the bible because someone got a hold of the first page.

Similarly, being aware of single edit tells us nothing about how much was edited out overall, and what was the actual content.

The point is that if they removed the verse about Shartan, an honored warrior under Andraste and an inspiration to elves was removed only out of spite for the Dales just think what else was removed for that type of reason? And if they would remove verses out of the chant out of spite then why wouldn't they remove othyer aspects out of it as well? That is the point I am making.

[Agamo45]

I didn't see anything "anti-mage" about her, she is simply loyal to the Chantry and that includes maintaining the Circles.

[Wulfram]

CodyMelch wrote...

The point is that if they removed the verse about Shartan, an honored warrior under Andraste and an inspiration to elves was removed only out of spite for the Dales just think what else was removed for that type of reason? And if they would remove verses out of the chant out of spite then why wouldn't they remove othyer aspects out of it as well? That is the point I am making.

It was probably less spite and more greed which motivated the removal of the Canticle of Shartan - the Canticle would presumably include the promise of Andraste that the Elves would have home of their own, which would be more than a little awkward if you're Orlais and have just conquered the Dales

[tmp7704]

CodyMelch wrote...

The point is that if they removed the verse about Shartan, an honored warrior under Andraste and an inspiration to elves was removed only out of spite for the Dales just think what else was removed for that type of reason? And if they would remove verses out of the chant out of spite then why wouldn't they remove othyer aspects out of it as well? That is the point I am making.

And my point is, that's extrapolation out of a single data point and in manner which lacks logical connections. An equivalent of your argument is:

"if a man was seen kicking a dog once, just think how many dogs he must've kicked. And if he kicked so many dogs why wouldn't he kick children, elderly and your mother, too? Clearly, he's done all that as well."

Modifié par tmp7704, 16 août 2011 - 09:55 .

[TEWR]

We know of two Canticles that were added to the Dissonant Verses: the Canticle of Shartan and the Canticle of Maferath.


I find that odd how the Chantry removed two Canticles that are from two people who were really close to Andraste (the latter may have betrayed her, but IIRC he hated that he did that)

[Herr Uhl]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

We know of two Canticles that were added to the Dissonant Verses: the Canticle of Shartan and the Canticle of Maferath.


I find that odd how the Chantry removed two Canticles that are from two people who were really close to Andraste (the latter may have betrayed her, but IIRC he hated that he did that)

Considering that Shartan was in there for a good while I doubt it is to cover up Andraste conspiracy theories. And Maferath was deleted at the beginning (ie, shortly after Andraste died), wasn't it?

[TEWR]

I don't remember when Maferath's was removed. But I do think they removed Shartan deliberately to demoralize the elves and remove support they might've had from elsewhere.

Of course, I don't trust the Chantry, so that's just me.

[Torax]

I don't know how much of Maferath's as being removed as never being added. I doubt while he was alive any of her truly close brethren accepting him back. So odds are it was just other followers that were with him or helped him write down his words. But not the ones working on the Chant of Light directly. Kind of like how there were other books written and never admitted into what is the current Bible. In particular some written say 200 years after the death of Jesus that the Church decided was not part of it. But the writer wanted it added.

[CrimsonZephyr]

Considering Andraste's sons killed Maferath, his canticle was probably in the Chant for all of a day, being exised almost as soon as it was set to paper.

[Macropodmum]

tmp7704 wrote...

CodyMelch wrote...

The point is that if they removed the verse about Shartan, an honored warrior under Andraste and an inspiration to elves was removed only out of spite for the Dales just think what else was removed for that type of reason? And if they would remove verses out of the chant out of spite then why wouldn't they remove othyer aspects out of it as well? That is the point I am making.

And my point is, that's extrapolation out of a single data point and in manner which lacks logical connections. An equivalent of your argument is:

"if a man was seen kicking a dog once, just think how many dogs he must've kicked. And if he kicked so many dogs why wouldn't he kick children, elderly and your mother, too? Clearly, he's done all that as well."

Tis a fairly well known fact that most serial killers start off by being cruel to animals.... The Chantry is a power in Thedas, I don't think it is unreasonable to suspect that over the years more has been removed from the chant than what we are aware of in an attempt to further their agenda...

[Rifneno]

Monica21 wrote...

Nah, if you stumble across Fox News you should know enough to change channels.

Okay, you win that one.

What I'm saying is that Leliana is a bard. Okay? A bard. She's a spy and a liar. You have no idea what her motivations are, why she's a Seeker, or what she's doing as a member of the Chantry. It's all speculation and Leliana Haterz based on a few minutes of dialogue and an amulet and I think that's ridiculous. And yes, you are leaping to conclusions. Do you want to buy a mat?

She was a bard. Alistair was a templar but he told the Chantry to gtfo. Granted, not to the same degree (Leliana was fully a bard whereas Alistair never took his templar vows, just training) but the same idea, specialization was supposed to only be because of their pasts not because of their present. You do realize you're half-way agreeing with the crowd you're arguing with by saying she's a bard and a liar right? That's kind of our point: that she was being a spy and a liar in DAO.

I do love the brushing off the amulet though. I guess we should also pretend Meredith was totally in control too. Because "what, you're blaming that on a sword? lulz."

Herr Uhl wrote...

There has not been a single iota to suggest that she is a mage. I see it as kind of crackpot that she is a mage that hates mages and thus rose to the highest position in the Chantry to hate them even more. That she even hates mages (outside of wanting circles) is something you have to make a stretch to assume.

That Andraste may be a mage is supported by some in game evidence in the form of documents. I say that calling everyone and their uncles old god babies as this forum is prone to do is kind of crackpot as well.

Yes, how dare people go to a forum for a story that heavily promotes speculating and speculate about things. So I have to ask... who the hell do you think you are to ridicule people for discussing theories about a mystery-based story?

IanPolaris wrote...

Indeed, the circles were created long after Andrasted was dead and burned. In fact some forget that the Chantry is only one of many Cults of Andraste that happened to get the backing of the powerful Orlesian Empire, and some (such as the Haven Cult) actually are highly pro-mage.

Amen. I don't know why people think the Chantry is the exact voice of Andraste. We know for a fact that they censor parts of the Chant that they don't like anymore and other parts they're basing on interpretations of things she said. For example she never said "no blood magic!" She said, "Foul and corrupt are you, Who have taken My gift, And turned it against My children." Or said the Maker said that. Or something. Either way, she could easily have been referring to any offensive magic. Or any magic used to harm innocent people. Or maybe she did mean blood magic. The fact is, we don't really know for sure what she meant... and neither does the Chantry, despite their fervor.

tmp7704 wrote...

And my point is, that's extrapolation out of a single data point and in manner which lacks logical connections. An equivalent of your argument is:

"if a man was seen kicking a dog once, just think how many dogs he must've kicked. And if he kicked so many dogs why wouldn't he kick children, elderly and your mother, too? Clearly, he's done all that as well."

We're not talking about kicking dogs, children, or elderly. We're saying that an organization we know rewrites history can't be trusted to the matter of historical records.

On the original topic, actually what bothers me most now that I think about it wasn't Leliana's dialogue but Hawke's. Hawke is only allowed to say "Crush teh mages!" or "It's really not that bad, cross my heart!" Why can't a pro-mage Hawke be truthful and say "the mages ARE getting really violent, but it's mostly because Meredith is breaking 18 different Chantry laws on treatment of mages before she gets out of bed in the morning. THAT is the ass you need to kick."

[tmp7704]

Rifneno wrote...

We're not talking about kicking dogs, children, or elderly. We're saying that an organization we know rewrites history can't be trusted to the matter of historical records.

To put it simply, we are talking about making giant leaps to conclusions. That includes making presumptions on what gets rewritten, and the reasoning behind it.