968 réponses à ce sujet

[Wulfram]

IanPolaris wrote...

That's the account that all non-Dalish get.  It's the Chantry line.

-Polaris

The rest of the entry does not suggest to me that the author, Sarethia, is particularly loyal to the "chantry line".

[IanPolaris]

Wulfram wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

That's the account that all non-Dalish get.  It's the Chantry line.

-Polaris

The rest of the entry does not suggest to me that the author, Sarethia, is particularly loyal to the "chantry line".

I don't agree.  She is under the thumb of the chantry and knows that some lines can't be crossed.  That's true with almost any city elven account.

-Polaris

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

I tend to agree that that entry was most likely exaggerated from a Chantry perspective. Accusation of things like human sacrifice and baby eating or whatever have long been the favorite tools of progandists in history, to paint one's enemies in the worst possible light as being iredeemably savage animals.

That said, I don't believe the Dalish were totally innocent, and probably did engage in their fair share of wrong doing. They did sit by and do nothing while the Blight ravaged their neighbors, and they could have very well likely probably engaged in some less than neighborly activities as well. My own opinion is that both the elves and humans were both guilty of crimes and stirring the shyte with each other. The Chantry won, and they write the history. But the dalish have ever reason to write their own history that is just as biased.

More than likely, the truth is somewhere inbetween both accounts. I generally look for the parts of each version where they both agree on something, and that is likely to be closer to the truth than either version.

[TEWR]

IanPolaris wrote...

I still consider these to be disjoint. I notice the Chantry is all but accusing the elves of human sacrifice which we've never seen any evidence of, and don't accept the Elve's right to their own sovereignty. Worse than that, they say the attack on Red Crossing was unprovoked, but never bother to say if Red Crossing was in Elven Lands or not (or if there weren't other attacks).

Reading the two, it sounds to me (and I'll admit I'm biased) like the Chantry is trying to rewrite a hsitory they are a bit ashamed of to make themselves seem morally better.

-Polaris

Doesn't Leliana bring up sacrifices to a Dalish Elf, as well as Pol, to which the player can debunk the claims?

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 17 août 2011 - 07:03 .

[Wulfram]

IanPolaris wrote...

I don't agree.  She is under the thumb of the chantry and knows that some lines can't be crossed.  That's true with almost any city elven account.

-Polaris

She refers to the human's god as "their Maker", which is a far more revolutionary statement than casting doubt on the origins of a long past war would be.

[IanPolaris]

Wulfram wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

I don't agree.  She is under the thumb of the chantry and knows that some lines can't be crossed.  That's true with almost any city elven account.

-Polaris

She refers to the human's god as "their Maker", which is a far more revolutionary statement than casting doubt on the origins of a long past war would be.

And that is likely the very outside limit.  The chantry keeps a very firm boot on the City Elves.  Never doubt it.

-Polaris

[Wulfram]

They don't seem to pay them enough attention to be said to keep a firm boot - City Elf Origin says only one priest ever visits the alienage.

Modifié par Wulfram, 17 août 2011 - 06:53 .

[IanPolaris]

Wulfram wrote...

They don't seem to pay them enough attention to be said to keep a firm boot - City Elf Origin says only one priest ever visits the alienage.

The City Elves are forced to live in ghettos (yes often by custom and not law but still....) and those gettos are well patrolled and Elves are pretty much universally hated/despised/scorned.

Seems like a pretty firm boot to me......not that the CIty Elves show any sign of a spine as a people.

I am far more sympathetic to the mages (who at least have some fight in them) vs the Elves frankly, but don't think the Chantry doesn't have it's boot on the elves as well.

-Polaris

[Wulfram]

IanPolaris wrote...

The City Elves are forced to live in ghettos (yes often by custom and not law but still....) and those gettos are well patrolled and Elves are pretty much universally hated/despised/scorned.

They aren't patrolled by the Chantry.  Their oppression is a secular affair, since they are after all Andrastean.

Modifié par Wulfram, 17 août 2011 - 07:07 .

[LobselVith8]

Rifneno wrote...

On the original topic, actually what bothers me most now that I think about it wasn't Leliana's dialogue but Hawke's. Hawke is only allowed to say "Crush teh mages!" or "It's really not that bad, cross my heart!" Why can't a pro-mage Hawke be truthful and say "the mages ARE getting really violent, but it's mostly because Meredith is breaking 18 different Chantry laws on treatment of mages before she gets out of bed in the morning. THAT is the ass you need to kick."

The responsibility still falls on Leliana, since she was sent to investigate the unrest in Kirkwall, but I agree that it's more than a little odd that the dialogue doesn't permit Hawke to point this fact out - Knight-Commander Meredith is causing unrest among the mages and the templars, and a pro-mage Hawke can publicly condemn her actions while the public supports his accusations. I don't see the point to this quest, since Leliana's accusations are in direct contradiction to what Hawke knows from seven years of experience; as a result, "Faith" felt pointless, especially when nothing that Hawke does seems to matter.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 17 août 2011 - 10:32 .

[Sepewrath]

Well her next question will be, "What proof do you have?" and Hawke's response would be "derp?" Lets not forget she is working for the Chantry, her reports come from Meredith more than likely, so blaming Meredith would have accomplished what exactly?

[dragonflight288]

Again, we don't know the full extent of what Leliana did. I use in-game evidence to support my own theories.

I will start with the facts of what we know did happen in the meeting with Leliana.

1. Elthina asked us to go and blatantly lie to Leliana. Sebastian will willingly do anything that Elthina asks. That limits what Hawke can say because Sebastian will automatically correct him/her.

2. We arrive at the meeting place where we get attacked by a rogue group of mages.

3. Leliana dispatches the last of them and informs us the identity of our attackers.

4. She tells us that the Divine is watching Kirkwall carefully and will take action if necessary.

5. She tells us to try and keep Kirkwall from falling to magic, and that the resolutionists will not be tolerated. If Anders is in the party, he coldly mentions that one doesn't need to be violent to want freedom.

From what I gather, and from the general hate for magic I've seen in EVERY game in the series, she isn't really talking too much about her own opinions but how the situation will be viewed by Thedas as a whole and by the Chantry.

Saying Leliana is anti-mage for delivering a message from the Divine and a cryptic warning about getting Elthina out of there is kind of a stretch. All I saw was her delivering a message from a very powerful person in Thedas. And since Leliana is so high up in the Chantry, she can't exactly say things that would circumvent whatever mission she was on.

Beyond that, everything is supposition. People take that and run is so many directions. She's a bad spy, she's anti-mage, blah blah blah.

All that happened was a message was delivered to Hawke and Sebastian, information they needed to know and absolutely nothing else. Whatever information Leliana had was most likely strictly on a need-to-know basis.

[Urzon]

Sepewrath wrote...

Well her next question will be, "What proof do you have?" and Hawke's response would be "derp?" Lets not forget she is working for the Chantry, her reports come from Meredith more than likely, so blaming Meredith would have accomplished what exactly?

Basically this.

It's Chantry reporting to Chantry. The reports probably said some like "dramatic increase of blood mages in the city. Meredith is increasing restrictions on mages in response." While it would be nice for them to get a clearer picture of things, but i doubt Cullen or any other templar writing the reports are going to slander Meredith. No matter how insane she became.

If Hawke did say something to Leliana during Faith. Meredith could explain it away as heresay from a mage supporter (or mage depending on the class choice) if the Divine did look into it further.

Modifié par Urzon, 17 août 2011 - 11:12 .

[tmp7704]

Wulfram wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

The City Elves are forced to live in ghettos (yes often by custom and not law but still....) and those gettos are well patrolled and Elves are pretty much universally hated/despised/scorned.

They aren't patrolled by the Chantry.  Their oppression is a secular affair, since they are after all Andrastean.

We don't get to see any actual patrol in the alienage, for that matter. The only instance when armed soldiers appear there is when Vaughan brings a force to "grab some elven ****s for his party". Other than that there's no evidence of patrols, and instead we see something quite opposite -- elves beating up a human for entering "their territory" (as well as having option as the PC to threaten Duncan with the same)

[tmp7704]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

If I should venture another guess, this edit would have been at the time when the war with Dales was afoot. Remove anything that would lend praise to the enemy or acknowledge their help in the past - military tactics.

That's similar to what my personal guess of the motivation behind that move is, as well. However, since it's exactly that, just a guess, i can't help but consider extrapolations of it or attempts to then read anything out of it regarding the big picture... to be empty speculations. Which can be fun to make of course, but when people seem to forget it's onlythat, well.

[Herr Uhl]

tmp7704 wrote...

We don't get to see any actual patrol in the alienage, for that matter. The only instance when armed soldiers appear there is when Vaughan brings a force to "grab some elven ****s for his party". Other than that there's no evidence of patrols, and instead we see something quite opposite -- elves beating up a human for entering "their territory" (as well as having option as the PC to threaten Duncan with the same)

Brother Genitivi mentions that there has been several purges done in to keep order in the alienage of Denerim the last decade alone. That would infer some kind of patrols at least. Purge could be anything between pointy sticks to guts to looking for drugs and weapons, so it could be anything between those. I assumed that it would be the former before DAO was released, but I am leaning towards the latter now.

Link.

[LobselVith8]

Sepewrath wrote...

Well her next question will be, "What proof do you have?" and Hawke's response would be "derp?" Lets not forget she is working for the Chantry, her reports come from Meredith more than likely, so blaming Meredith would have accomplished what exactly?

Hawke could correct her on blaming mages for the unrest that is going on in Kirkwall instead of keeping silent about the issue, especially when a pro-mage Hawke can hear the people demanding Meredith's removal and requesting for Hawke to become the new Viscount after his public condemnation of her dictatorship. Meredith is enough of a problem that mages and templars decide to work together to oust her as dictator. If Leliana asks for proof, he can tell her (as aggressive Hawke) to do her f****ing job.

[dragonflight288]

....she never said mages were responsible. Resolutionists use magic therefore magic can be viewed responsible. And she only tells us what we need to know. Message to Elthina, identity of attackers, and the Divine is watching. Everything beyond those points is pure speculation.

[Sepewrath]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Hawke could correct her on blaming mages for the unrest that is going on in Kirkwall instead of keeping silent about the issue, especially when a pro-mage Hawke can hear the people demanding Meredith's removal and requesting for Hawke to become the new Viscount after his public condemnation of her dictatorship. Meredith is enough of a problem that mages and templars decide to work together to oust her as dictator. If Leliana asks for proof, he can tell her (as aggressive Hawke) to do her f****ing job.

And what of all the Templar's that still supported her at that point, including Cullen? It would just be, he said, she said, accomplishing nothing. And I find it hard to believe that she was unaware of the Viscount situation, obviously, either the Divine didn't care or it was more of a reason for an Exalted March, take your pick.

[esper]

Sepewrath wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Hawke could correct her on blaming mages for the unrest that is going on in Kirkwall instead of keeping silent about the issue, especially when a pro-mage Hawke can hear the people demanding Meredith's removal and requesting for Hawke to become the new Viscount after his public condemnation of her dictatorship. Meredith is enough of a problem that mages and templars decide to work together to oust her as dictator. If Leliana asks for proof, he can tell her (as aggressive Hawke) to do her f****ing job.

And what of all the Templar's that still supported her at that point, including Cullen? It would just be, he said, she said, accomplishing nothing. And I find it hard to believe that she was unaware of the Viscount situation, obviously, either the Divine didn't care or it was more of a reason for an Exalted March, take your pick.

The problem is not whereever Leliana believes Hawke the problem is that a pro-mage Hawke basically only can say: It is not so bad.
A pro-mage Hawke should be able to blame Meriditth: True or not.

[Rifneno]

Sepewrath wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Hawke could correct her on blaming mages for the unrest that is going on in Kirkwall instead of keeping silent about the issue, especially when a pro-mage Hawke can hear the people demanding Meredith's removal and requesting for Hawke to become the new Viscount after his public condemnation of her dictatorship. Meredith is enough of a problem that mages and templars decide to work together to oust her as dictator. If Leliana asks for proof, he can tell her (as aggressive Hawke) to do her f****ing job.

And what of all the Templar's that still supported her at that point, including Cullen? It would just be, he said, she said, accomplishing nothing. And I find it hard to believe that she was unaware of the Viscount situation, obviously, either the Divine didn't care or it was more of a reason for an Exalted March, take your pick.

Gee, if only she were a skilled spy and could get information by doing more than going into the Gallows and talking to the first templar she sees.

[IanPolaris]

Rifneno wrote...


Gee, if only she were a skilled spy and could get information by doing more than going into the Gallows and talking to the first templar she sees.

Too much unnecessary work.  After all, we know that all the Templars have a perfect and unbiased view of what's going on in Kirkwall.  Why should Lelianna be expected to do her damn job?

-Polaris

[KnightofPhoenix]

Thin veil. Here, all your concerns have been made moot.

[Xilizhra]

A thought: Leliana goes to the Keep first on her mission, and does the rest of her spying thereafter.

[Rifneno]

Xilizhra wrote...

A thought: Leliana goes to the Keep first on her mission, and does the rest of her spying thereafter.

Nope.  Leliana is with Cassandra's unit when she interrogates Varric.  Cassandra thought Hawke was the one who screwed everything up and was surprised to find out Meredith was a psychopath.  "If what you say is true... what happened at the Gallows may be far different than we had assumed."  "So it was Meredith's fault. She *different dialogue depending on who Hawke sided with*."

I'm sure someone can come up with some poor, convoluted excuse that Cassandra's preconceptions doesn't mean Leliana epic failed, but I'm not going to buy it.