968 réponses à ce sujet

[TEWR]

that.... had nothing to do with dragon's blood and the Ashes healing Leliana. The Warden could've run her through and believed that the Ashes were in fact useless now (since that's what Kolgrim said would happen), so he left her for dead.

[Aradace]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

that.... had nothing to do with dragon's blood and the Ashes healing Leliana. The Warden could've run her through and believed that the Ashes were in fact useless now (since that's what Kolgrim said would happen), so he left her for dead.

Really? So you're telling me if we had the option to actually "make sure" someone is dead and actually walk over and cut their head off (not referring to a DB mind you) that the ashes could miraculously cure that? Bull**** lol.  I gotta call it on that one.

[Rifneno]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

that.... had nothing to do with dragon's blood and the Ashes healing Leliana. The Warden could've run her through and believed that the Ashes were in fact useless now (since that's what Kolgrim said would happen), so he left her for dead.

So... Hawke wasn't dumb enough, now we want to go back and make the Warden a drooling idiot too?

[TEWR]

since you don't have that option, arguing if it happened is irrelevant. You can't kneel down and take her pulse and say "Welp, she's dead".

And if she's bleeding all over the floor, believing she'll die soon enough isn't that big of a stretch. Rather, it's entirely believable, though admittedly idiotic.

Now... if they showed a cutscene where Leliana is holding on to her wounds in pain and looks at you as you leave (Wynne too), this wouldn't be an issue now would it?

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 13 août 2011 - 08:14 .

[TEWR]

Rifneno wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

that.... had nothing to do with dragon's blood and the Ashes healing Leliana. The Warden could've run her through and believed that the Ashes were in fact useless now (since that's what Kolgrim said would happen), so he left her for dead.

So... Hawke wasn't dumb enough, now we want to go back and make the Warden a drooling idiot too?

It's not like the Warden was the pinnacle of perfection.

[Aradace]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

since you don't have that option, arguing that it happened is irrelevant. You can't kneel down and take her pulse and say "Welp, she's dead".

And if she's bleeding all over the floor, believing she'll die soon enough isn't that big of a stretch. Rather, it's entirely believable.

Now... if they showed a cutscene where Leliana is holding on to her wounds in pain and looks at you as you leave (Wynne too), this wouldn't be an issue now would it?

You're missing the point entirely *shrugs* Oh well, If you cant see what the real concern here is that Im taking issue with then there's nothing more I can say to make you see.  Which in turn means Im wasting my breath on you.  I cant begin to explain it to you when you're missing the principle of the matter entirely.

[Chun Hei]

Maybe they left Leliana's position on mages vague so future writers can go any direction they wish. When you set something in stone that you may wish to visit later you are painting yourself into a corner. Or you could just ignore all the old stuff and listen to fans cry "Retcon! AAAAAAAA!"

[rak72]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Aradace wrote...

I've always hated Leliana and always will.  But the fact is, just when I thought I couldnt possilbly like her any less, the Devs go and rezz her ass.  (Yes guys, you rezzed her despite what cheap "excuse" you come up with in the future to justify it) 

What if their excuse is a ressurection? Would that also count as a weak excuse to resurect her?

Miracle Max???

She was only mostly dead

[TEWR]

that you dislike her resurrection and see it as cliche no matter how much there is to make it believable, especially when Dragon's blood has healing properties and helps strengthen a person.

That's pretty much it, right?

as I said on page 4, I don't call things cliche and don't care if they are cliche. So long as they're done well.

For all we know Leliana did die completely and Flemeth brought her back (secretly) much like Tia Dalma did to Barbossa. Ancient magic and whatnot.

Flemeth does enjoy playing Thedas chess and saving people who are about to die.

[Aradace]

Chun Hei wrote...

Maybe they left Leliana's position on mages vague so future writers can go any direction they wish. When you set something in stone that you may wish to visit later you are painting yourself into a corner. Or you could just ignore all the old stuff and listen to fans cry "Retcon! AAAAAAAA!"

Then why not hand wave EVERY decision we've made in both games so far?  By your logic that's exactly what they should have done.

@Redux - Nope, that's actually not it at all.  I rest my case, you've missed the principle entirely.  I'll give you a hint, it's in this post somewhere <_<

Modifié par Aradace, 13 août 2011 - 08:23 .

[Cody]

If you kill her then that would mean you fought the spirit that was located there as well. Perhaps the spirit did the same thing to her that the spirit within Wynne did? Wouldn't be to far fetched. As it is the guy has shown to be able to disappear and reappear as will in the gauntlet so there is a good chance that he could have gotten away, then returned to help out the one whom tried to help him.

[TEWR]

or that the Warden should've made sure she's dead. Frankly it doesn't matter to me what the principle is. The Warden was not given the option to make sure, so there is no way to say he made sure except through modding (if possible) or fanfiction.


edit: or that the devs made Leliana live.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 13 août 2011 - 08:26 .

[Chun Hei]

Aradace wrote...

Chun Hei wrote...

Maybe they left Leliana's position on mages vague so future writers can go any direction they wish. When you set something in stone that you may wish to visit later you are painting yourself into a corner. Or you could just ignore all the old stuff and listen to fans cry "Retcon! AAAAAAAA!"

Then why not hand wave EVERY decision we've made in both games so far?  By your logic that's exactly what they should have done.

@Redux - Nope, that's actually not it at all.  I rest my case, you've missed the principle entirely.

I am not saying that Leliana being alive (if you killed her) makes sense or is a good thing. I even said I want an explanation myself in an earlier post.

I was talking about the Leliana we saw in the Vicount's office and was keeping it in the subject of the thread. Is she anti-mage now (even if she should be dead)? The game does not say one way or the other if Leliana is now anti-mage or just hunting extremists. If the writers are not sure what they are going to do with her in the future THAT is what they should do.

[Cody]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

or that the Warden should've made sure she's dead. Frankly it doesn't matter to me what the principle is. The Warden was not given the option to make sure, so there is no way to say he made sure except through modding (if possible) or fanfiction.

True, I mean you can burn her alive or cut her head off, either way it is just a game mechanic.

As it is Calo Nord looked to be dead when a blast from a ship grazed him and made the roof above him collapse ontop of him. Result? He lived and tried to take on Revan and his party again. So not really too farfetched.

Still...I like my idea. Would make sense for a spirit who believes in the maker to help out a strong believer who tried to help him protect the ashes.

Modifié par CodyMelch, 13 août 2011 - 08:29 .

[Aradace]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

or that the Warden should've made sure she's dead. Frankly it doesn't matter to me what the principle is. The Warden was not given the option to make sure, so there is no way to say he made sure except through modding (if possible) or fanfiction.


edit: or that the devs made Leliana live.

Well I guess it's good that it doesnt matter to you what the principle is because once again, you missed it entirely even when I gave you a flaming red flag on what it was.  So once again, my breath, wasted *shrugs* Oh well, I seem to do that alot.

@Cody - It's not about the plausability of her resurrection.  At least not for me anyway.  It about the fact that it was a decision that some of us made that was essentially tossed out the window just because the writers wanted to be lazy and not create another character that could fill her spot in the case of her death.  THAT is what bugs me about it.  And THAT is why regardless of how they explain her death, I will never be ok with it.  Bottom line.

Modifié par Aradace, 13 août 2011 - 08:31 .

[TEWR]

In the game Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance, certain bosses were defeated but in the sequel Radiant Dawn weren't actually killed.

The Black Knight, one of the bosses of the former game, was thought to have perished when the castle he was in collapsed.

However, the game itself presented the Knight with Warp Powder, which allowed him to move anywhere he wanted when used.

Radiant Dawn had a certain character send men to look for the corpse of the Knight the day after the collapse, but nothing could be found. Turns out the Black Knight was far more significant to both games then one thought.


It all comes down to one simple thing for Bioware to remember: If there's even a sliver of a chance a character may reappear later on, but can be killed if certain actions are taken, provide clues to ensure that they may still be around in the game where the killing can happen.

[Aradace]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

*snip*... provide clues to ensure that they may still be around in the game where the killing can happen.

And had they actually done this in Origins, I'd have been ok with it.  But they didnt now did they?

[Cuthlan]

Seriously, if Leliana didn't survive someone's playthrough in Origins, it's because they played wrong.

Are we gonna start griping about Minsc, Jaheira, Imoen, and Khalid surviving Baldur's gate to appear in the sequel again, too? This is just something Bioware does. Either you can accept the handwave or you can't. If you can't, Bioware games probably aren't for you.

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

miraclemight wrote...

Back on Lelianna - Didn't one of the devs said she survived because of the healing powers of the Urn? Still doesn't how she can survive if the Warden leave her behind in Lothering. Escaped with the Templars and the other sisters of the Chantry?

She walked away?

From an onrushing horde of thousands of darkspawn.

Power walk, anyone?

The Hawkes did it, didn't they?

[Aradace]

Cuthlan wrote...

Seriously, if Leliana didn't survive someone's playthrough in Origins, it's because they played wrong.

Seeing as how there is no "right" or "wrong" way to play the game....Nevermind, not even going to go there.  Next thing you'll try to tell me is that if anyone played other than the way YOU played it's "wrong" right?

Modifié par Aradace, 13 août 2011 - 08:39 .

[Dave of Canada]

Aradace wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

*snip*... provide clues to ensure that they may still be around in the game where the killing can happen.

And had they actually done this in Origins, I'd have been ok with it.  But they didnt now did they?

Except you're in a location where there's spirits of people, the place is holy, there's ashes that can cure everything, there's a **** ton of lyrim under the mountain, there's dragon blood nearby, ect.

[Mr.House]

Aradace wrote...

Cuthlan wrote...

Seriously, if Leliana didn't survive someone's playthrough in Origins, it's because they played wrong.

Seeing as how there is no "right" or "wrong" way to play the game....Nevermind, not even going to go there.  Next thing you'll try to tell me is that if anyone played other than the way YOU played it's "wrong" right?

It's well knowen that killing Leli makes you a heartless monster

[TEWR]

Aradace wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

*snip*... provide clues to ensure that they may still be around in the game where the killing can happen.

And had they actually done this in Origins, I'd have been ok with it.  But they didnt now did they?

No they didn't. which is why I said above had they shown a cutscene with the Warden walking out on both Leliana and Wynne holding their wounds in pain (or either or, depending on everything), it wouldn't be an issue for people. The outcries would be nonexistent..

Had it been done with both of them there, it could be explained due to many things, Wynne being a spirit healer among them.

But I remember some bit of lore about peoples' spirits in Thedas. Somewhere I could've sworn it was said that the spirit doesn't immediately leave the body upon death. Which is similar to the real world where a person can be dead for a brief amount of time and then come back.


EDIT: Though I can't justify anyone siding with Kolgrim, due to many reasons.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 13 août 2011 - 08:42 .

[Cuthlan]

Aradace wrote...

Cuthlan wrote...

Seriously, if Leliana didn't survive someone's playthrough in Origins, it's because they played wrong.

Seeing as how there is no "right" or "wrong" way to play the game....Nevermind, not even going to go there.  Next thing you'll try to tell me is that if anyone played other than the way YOU played it's "wrong" right?

Really?

You're gonna quote the obvious joke (see the smiley?) and try to retort it while ignoring the real comment?

But yes, you're right. I played it the right way. Other ways are wrong.

Modifié par Cuthlan, 13 août 2011 - 08:42 .

[Aradace]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Aradace wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

*snip*... provide clues to ensure that they may still be around in the game where the killing can happen.

And had they actually done this in Origins, I'd have been ok with it.  But they didnt now did they?

Except you're in a location where there's spirits of people, the place is holy, there's ashes that can cure everything, there's a **** ton of lyrim under the mountain, there's dragon blood nearby, ect.

Right, and EVERYONE is just going to assume that because all that stuff is present that Leliana could be around in the second game right?  Again, I call bull****.

[Quething]

Aradace wrote...

@Cody - It's not about the plausability of her resurrection.  At least not for me anyway.  It about the fact that it was a decision that some of us made that was essentially tossed out the window just because the writers wanted to be lazy and not create another character that could fill her spot in the case of her death.  THAT is what bugs me about it.  And THAT is why regardless of how they explain her death, I will never be ok with it.  Bottom line.

I don't know if "lazy" is the word. I don't think their decision had anything to do with dev time or the practicality/impracticality of devising an alternate ally for Dorothea and Cassandra. I think it was solely about worldbuilding and their idea of how well Leliana fit in the story they now want to tell. Essentially, it was a decision to prioritize their current artistic vision over the integrity of the "player's choice" principle. Nothing to do with laziness.

Not saying that makes it better. BioWare has been prioritizing "player choice" ever lower of late, even as they sell "consequence" ever more as a theme of their games, and I think it's a bad call. They made their own choice to make Leliana a killable NPC in DA:O, they need to accept their own consequence of not being able to use her in the future story the way they want to in order to preserve the promise to the customer base that our choices would matter.

That aside, I did find her puzzlingly cold and callous and, if not blatantly anti-mage, than certianly heavily suggestively so, in her DA2 cameo. And I suspect she will continue to be so in future installments, because that appears to be the creative team's understanding of a "not anti-mage Chantry character," based both on DA2 characterization and dev comments here on BSN.

Modifié par Quething, 13 août 2011 - 08:42 .