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[Aradace]

Cuthlan wrote...

Aradace wrote...

Cuthlan wrote...

Seriously, if Leliana didn't survive someone's playthrough in Origins, it's because they played wrong.

Seeing as how there is no "right" or "wrong" way to play the game....Nevermind, not even going to go there.  Next thing you'll try to tell me is that if anyone played other than the way YOU played it's "wrong" right?

Really?

You're gonna quote the obvious joke (see the smiley?) and try to retort it while ignoring the real comment?

But yes, you're right. I played it the right way. Other ways are wrong.

As Ive been told several times here, "Just because you put a smiley or lol at the end of it doesnt mean it cant be taken the wrong way" <_<

[ObserverStatus]

LobselVith8 wrote...

More than a few people have seen Leliana's cameo as a sign that she's now anti-mage, given her comments about "tolerating" mages who want independence from the Chantry and the general comments she made, as well as her attitude about an Exalted March against Kirkwall and its inhabitiants if mages gain autonomy from the Chantry. Given how Leliana seemed to be anti-mage in "Faith," despite her portrayal in Origins (especially in her conversations with Wynne), do you think she going to continue to be portrayed as an anti-mage Chantry member, or will she be be depicted as she was in her first appearance?

She had better continue to be anti-mage, or else the maker is going to kill her along with all the other collaborators.

[Mr.House]

Aradace wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Aradace wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

*snip*... provide clues to ensure that they may still be around in the game where the killing can happen.

And had they actually done this in Origins, I'd have been ok with it.  But they didnt now did they?

Except you're in a location where there's spirits of people, the place is holy, there's ashes that can cure everything, there's a **** ton of lyrim under the mountain, there's dragon blood nearby, ect.

Right, and EVERYONE is just going to assume that because all that stuff is present that Leliana could be around in the second game right?  Again, I call bull****.

It's.Just.A.Game.

[TEWR]

who is slapping your Warden, Mr. House?

[Aradace]

Quething wrote...

Aradace wrote...

@Cody - It's not about the plausability of her resurrection.  At least not for me anyway.  It about the fact that it was a decision that some of us made that was essentially tossed out the window just because the writers wanted to be lazy and not create another character that could fill her spot in the case of her death.  THAT is what bugs me about it.  And THAT is why regardless of how they explain her death, I will never be ok with it.  Bottom line.

I don't know if "lazy" is the word. I don't think their decision had anything to do with dev time or the practicality/impracticality of devising an alternate ally for Dorothea and Cassandra. I think it was solely about worldbuilding and their idea of how well Leliana fit in the story they now want to tell. Essentially, it was a decision to prioritize their current artistic vision over the integrity of the "player's choice" principle. Nothing to do with laziness.

Not saying that makes it better. BioWare has been prioritizing "player choice" ever lower of late, even as they sell "consequence" ever more as a theme of their games, and I think it's a bad call. They made their own choice to make Leliana a killable NPC in DA:O, they need to accept their own consequence of not being able to use her in the future story the way they want to in order to preserve the promise to the customer base that our choices would matter.

That aside, I did find her puzzlingly cold and callous and, if not blatantly anti-mage, than certianly heavily suggestively so, in her DA2 cameo. And I suspect she will continue to be so in future installments, because that appears to be the creative team's understanding of a "not anti-mage Chantry character," based both on DA2 characterization and dev comments here on BSN.

At least you're getting the point.  That no matter how they explain it, it doesnt make it any better.  If they're going to start handwaving decisions I make in game, then why not just make every DA game from here on in where the decisions you make dont really matter....Oh....wait....*stares at his copy of DA2*...they've already did that.

The good news is that I honestly expect any and/or all decisions we make in DA2 to have little to no relevance or impact on the world what so ever in the next game.  At least in that regard, whatever they do in DA3, I can honestly say it wont surprise me at this ponit.

Modifié par Aradace, 13 août 2011 - 08:47 .

[Mr.House]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

who is slapping your Warden, Mr. House?

A woman.

[TEWR]

Mr.House wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

who is slapping your Warden, Mr. House?

A woman.

 what's a woman?







seriously though, is it anyone specific or just some random woman?

[Mr.House]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

who is slapping your Warden, Mr. House?

A woman.

 what's a woman?







seriously though, is it anyone specific or just some random woman?

Valeria.

[CrimsonZephyr]

David Gaider wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
More than a few people have seen Leliana's cameo as a sign that she's now anti-mage, given her comments about "tolerating" mages who want independence from the Chantry and the general comments she made, as well as her attitude about an Exalted March against Kirkwall and its inhabitiants if mages gain autonomy from the Chantry. Given how Leliana seemed to be anti-mage in "Faith," despite her portrayal in Origins (especially in her conversations with Wynne), do you think she going to continue to be portrayed as an anti-mage Chantry member, or will she be be depicted as she was in her first appearance?

We haven't "portrayed" her as anti-mage. Some people (particularly those who are prone to exaggeration on the topic) do seem to interpret her as such, however, based on relatively little information.

To be fair, in Origins, if the Warden decided to spare that blood mage insurrectionist in the Circle Tower who begs for her life, Leliana not only strongly encourages and supports it, but chastises Alistair for having a dimmer and more cynical view of the Chantry's policy on repentant blood mages. Then, she denies to Wynne that magic is a curse, but rather a gift, and explicitly calls it wonderous.

In DA2, she is a member of the Chantry's black ops and makes sweeping statements like "if the world falls to magic, none of us will be safe" and basically stating that the Divine will crushg Kirkwall under her heel if the mages don't get back in their cells like nice little boys and girls. Her tone is infinitely more callous and she's just basically a Chantry drone. Part of her appeal in DAO was that she wasn't a religious nutbag.

[miraclemight]

Mr.House wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

who is slapping your Warden, Mr. House?

A woman.

 what's a woman?







seriously though, is it anyone specific or just some random woman?

Valeria.

I too have been dying to know what the story behind your avatar was. It's truly giggle-worthy.

Modifié par miraclemight, 13 août 2011 - 09:50 .

[WhiteKnyght]

David Gaider wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
More than a few people have seen Leliana's cameo as a sign that she's now anti-mage, given her comments about "tolerating" mages who want independence from the Chantry and the general comments she made, as well as her attitude about an Exalted March against Kirkwall and its inhabitiants if mages gain autonomy from the Chantry. Given how Leliana seemed to be anti-mage in "Faith," despite her portrayal in Origins (especially in her conversations with Wynne), do you think she going to continue to be portrayed as an anti-mage Chantry member, or will she be be depicted as she was in her first appearance?

We haven't "portrayed" her as anti-mage. Some people (particularly those who are prone to exaggeration on the topic) do seem to interpret her as such, however, based on relatively little information.

Well to me it looks like she is a sign of just how corrupt
the Chantry really is. The fact that the one person who is supposed to
be the brightest example of faith and morality in Thedas keeps her own personal bard to do dark deeds that cant be tied to her is funny. You're doing well recreating the corruption in our world's church.

And it also looks like Leliana is very easily controlled. First Marjolaine, Then The Warden(the player has the ability to shape Leliana's persona), and now the Divine.

[TEWR]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
More than a few people have seen Leliana's cameo as a sign that she's now anti-mage, given her comments about "tolerating" mages who want independence from the Chantry and the general comments she made, as well as her attitude about an Exalted March against Kirkwall and its inhabitiants if mages gain autonomy from the Chantry. Given how Leliana seemed to be anti-mage in "Faith," despite her portrayal in Origins (especially in her conversations with Wynne), do you think she going to continue to be portrayed as an anti-mage Chantry member, or will she be be depicted as she was in her first appearance?

We haven't "portrayed" her as anti-mage. Some people (particularly those who are prone to exaggeration on the topic) do seem to interpret her as such, however, based on relatively little information.

To be fair, in Origins, if the Warden decided to spare that blood mage insurrectionist in the Circle Tower who begs for her life, Leliana not only strongly encourages and supports it, but chastises Alistair for having a dimmer and more cynical view of the Chantry's policy on repentant blood mages. Then, she denies to Wynne that magic is a curse, but rather a gift, and explicitly calls it wonderous.

In DA2, she is a member of the Chantry's black ops and makes sweeping statements like "if the world falls to magic, none of us will be safe" and basically stating that the Divine will crushg Kirkwall under her heel if the mages don't get back in their cells like nice little boys and girls. Her tone is infinitely more callous and she's just basically a Chantry drone. Part of her appeal in DAO was that she wasn't a religious nutbag.

Poor choice of words considering she thinks the Maker gave her a vision (whether true or not is unknown) and she was believed a plant had religious significance 


Other than that, I agree completely.

[David Gaider]

esper wrote...
If she hints at a blood mage group being the reason why Kirkwall is out of control and comes with vauge threats about exalthed marches against Kirkwall for that reason how are we suppossed to not she her as anti-mage?
And no matter what she is pro-chantry and now claims to be working for the Divine... Unless the Chantry suddenly chance its stance on mages she is not exaclty on the same side as a Hawke who is pro mage freedom. 

For one, I don't think a suggestion that a group of mages seeking their freedom through violence and blood magic is a problem for everyone equates to her being anti-mage. Nor does a support of the Chantry also automatically equate to being anti-mage-- unless one's opinion is that anyone who supports the Chantry and its ideals is automatically guilty by association (such as characters like Wynne). Considering the bias against anything vaguely religious expressed by some people on the forums, that attitude wouldn't particularly surprise me.

All I've suggested is that some folks are seeing some ice on the water and calling it an iceberg-- you haven't been given a lot of information on Leliana or her purpose at this point, and while that's intentional I'd at least advise those making interpretations to realize that's what they're doing. Anyone getting upset because they've filled in the blanks themselves and don't like the picture they've drawn seems a little over the top.

Speculation, of course, is expected. So carry on.

Modifié par David Gaider, 13 août 2011 - 10:20 .

[Bryy_Miller]

Leliana was so a religious nutbag.

But there's evidence to support that the Maker actually did send her to the Warden.

Who knows, she could have been Black Ops even back then.

[Aradace]

David Gaider wrote...

*snip*... unless one's opinion is that anyone who supports the Chantry and its ideals is automatically guilty by association (such as characters like Wynne). Considering the bias against anything vaguely religious expressed by some people on the forums, that attitude wouldn't particularly surprise me....

Im guilty as charged on that one but Im not ashamed of it either.  If if werent for zealots like Petrice, I'd be a little more "open minded" to the Chantry.  But seeing as how she very closely resembles RL religious zealots, I tend to view the chantry in the same light as I do any religion that tries to state that their so called "almighty" diety created the universe.

[TEWR]

Mr. Gaider, I think the dialogue wasn't really good for her. It seems to convey that anti-mage stance. Add into that she doesn't even bother to research why the resolutionists have done what they did, and Leliana just seems like an incredibly different person. An incompetent person even.

Meredith usurps the throne of the Viscount for 3 years and becomes a tyrant to the mages, and Leliana didn't even bother to look into it? That's not okay.

Leliana was sent to find out what was causing the unrest, and as soon as the resolutionists attack her because she baited them, she blames them.

Hell Anders even says that it doesn't take a resolutionist to want freedom.

And if she was pro-chantry regarding mages, why doesn't she take issue with a Mage Warden who requested the boon for mage independence?


edit: fixed a few grammar issues in a very brief summary of what I wanted to say.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 13 août 2011 - 10:48 .

[CrimsonZephyr]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
More than a few people have seen Leliana's cameo as a sign that she's now anti-mage, given her comments about "tolerating" mages who want independence from the Chantry and the general comments she made, as well as her attitude about an Exalted March against Kirkwall and its inhabitiants if mages gain autonomy from the Chantry. Given how Leliana seemed to be anti-mage in "Faith," despite her portrayal in Origins (especially in her conversations with Wynne), do you think she going to continue to be portrayed as an anti-mage Chantry member, or will she be be depicted as she was in her first appearance?

We haven't "portrayed" her as anti-mage. Some people (particularly those who are prone to exaggeration on the topic) do seem to interpret her as such, however, based on relatively little information.

To be fair, in Origins, if the Warden decided to spare that blood mage insurrectionist in the Circle Tower who begs for her life, Leliana not only strongly encourages and supports it, but chastises Alistair for having a dimmer and more cynical view of the Chantry's policy on repentant blood mages. Then, she denies to Wynne that magic is a curse, but rather a gift, and explicitly calls it wonderous.

In DA2, she is a member of the Chantry's black ops and makes sweeping statements like "if the world falls to magic, none of us will be safe" and basically stating that the Divine will crushg Kirkwall under her heel if the mages don't get back in their cells like nice little boys and girls. Her tone is infinitely more callous and she's just basically a Chantry drone. Part of her appeal in DAO was that she wasn't a religious nutbag.

Poor choice of words considering she thinks the Maker gave her a vision (whether true or not is unknown) and she was believed a plant had religious significance 


Other than that, I agree completely.

Oh come on, that was so benign compared to what we see in DA2.

Modifié par CrimsonZephyr, 13 août 2011 - 10:31 .

[Morroian]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Mr. Gaider, I think the dialogue wasn't really good for her. It seems to convey that anti-mage stance. Add into that she doesn't even bother to research why the resolutionists have done what they have, and Leliana just seems like an incredibly different person. An incompetent person even.

Well I didn't interpret her as particularly anti mage just the resolutionists. She does come to mage Hawke for help after all.

[Aradace]

Morroian wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Mr. Gaider, I think the dialogue wasn't really good for her. It seems to convey that anti-mage stance. Add into that she doesn't even bother to research why the resolutionists have done what they have, and Leliana just seems like an incredibly different person. An incompetent person even.

Well I didn't interpret her as particularly anti mage just the resolutionists. She does come to mage Hawke for help after all.

Actuallly, not entirely true.  It's another one of those Hawke was at the right place at the right/wrong time scenarios.  She never specifically asked for Hawke's help.  It was Elthina that did.

[LobselVith8]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Mr. Gaider, I think the dialogue wasn't really good for her. It seems to convey that anti-mage stance. Add into that she doesn't even bother to research why the resolutionists have done what they did, and Leliana just seems like an incredibly different person. An incompetent person even.

Meredith usurps the throne of the Viscount for 3 years and becomes a tyrant to the mages, and Leliana didn't even bother to look into it? That's not okay.

Leliana was sent to find out what was causing the unrest, and as soon as the resolutionists attack her because she baited them, she blames them.

Hell Anders even says that it doesn't take a resolutionist to want freedom.

And if she was pro-chantry regarding mages, why doesn't she take issue with a Mage Warden who requested the boon for mage independence?

I feel the same way. Leliana seemed to have a tone of denigration towards mages who want to be independent of the Chantry, and her conversation in "Faith" focused on the fact that she's blaming the mages for the plight in Kirkwall and ignoring the Knight-Commander turned dictator who manages to get mages and templars working together to oust her. Leliana in "Faith" was drastically different than her depiction in "Origins." In Faith, her general tone when she talks about an Exalted March against Kirkwall that would lead to countless deaths makes me find her character repellant, and wonder why Hawke allowed her to leave Kirkwall alive simply because she's incapable of doing her job. Leliana casting blame on the Resolutionists when Hawke (and the rest of Kirkwall) is looking at the Knight-Commander turned dictator makes Leliana look inept.

[asindre]

How do you know everything about her from a 5 min conversation?

[Aradace]

asindre wrote...

How do you know everything about her from a 5 min conversation?

Because some folks actually "got to know her" in Origins.  And basing their assumptions from there to here.

[The dead fish]

David Gaider wrote...

esper wrote...
If she hints at a blood mage group being the reason why Kirkwall is out of control and comes with vauge threats about exalthed marches against Kirkwall for that reason how are we suppossed to not she her as anti-mage?
And no matter what she is pro-chantry and now claims to be working for the Divine... Unless the Chantry suddenly chance its stance on mages she is not exaclty on the same side as a Hawke who is pro mage freedom. 

For one, I don't think a suggestion that a group of mages seeking their freedom through violence and blood magic is a problem for everyone equates to her being anti-mage. Nor does a support of the Chantry also automatically equate to being anti-mage-- unless one's opinion is that anyone who supports the Chantry and its ideals is automatically guilty by association (such as characters like Wynne). Considering the bias against anything vaguely religious expressed by some people on the forums, that attitude wouldn't particularly surprise me.

All I've suggested is that some folks are seeing some ice on the water and calling it an iceberg-- you haven't been given a lot of information on Leliana or her purpose at this point, and while that's intentional I'd at least advise those making interpretations to realize that's what they're doing. Anyone getting upset because they've filled in the blanks themselves and don't like the picture they've drawn seems a little over the top.

Speculation, of course, is expected. So carry on.

This ! This ! This ! This ! This !

Now, I'm done with this thread.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 13 août 2011 - 11:37 .

[Melca36]

Hopefully some secrets of the Chantry will be revealed in DA:3 that will give the zealots the chance to realize that  a great many things have been hidden from them and maybe then they will question their faith.

[Huntress]

My human mage warden and leliana left for adventuresssss I didn't see her against magic rofl.

But yeah all the fault goes to mages every single time, I don't know why the balance is so unbalance.. is like everyone saying: "see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil" of templars, but when is about a mage... is "Evil" and no way out of it. Add balance to the writing or the game please, seen just one side of it get very boring very quick.

I don't think Leliena actually hates all mages, is just a group of mages making life impossible withing the circles and Outside of the circles "the resolutionists" are at fault, I hope in future dlc we learn that Anders and this mages have been seen each other/working together for a long time before the end act 3.

Modifié par Huntress, 13 août 2011 - 11:40 .