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[Herr Uhl]

Melca36 wrote...

Hopefully some secrets of the Chantry will be revealed in DA:3 that will give the zealots the chance to realize that  a great many things have been hidden from them and maybe then they will question their faith.

What secrets?

[Huntress]

Secrets like, Andraste was actually a Mage rofl.. a mage married the Maker!.. oh maker noooo!. lol

And the so called "bard" that created the spell to stop mind domination was an actual blood mage aiding the Chantry.. Maker nooo./wrist rofl
^Oh gosh that would be hilarious.

[bleetman]

Surely if we knew what they might be, they wouldn't be secrets.

...

[TEWR]

I imagine the Divine just has a whole bunch of secret files, records, items, and whatever else in her bedroom and she just laughs maniacally each and every night.

I also like to think the current Divine, Dorothea from Leliana's Song, is a very powerful anti-mage mage that worked her way to Divine to further her anti-mage agenda.

Would make for a pretty good story imo if she was a mage.

[Zanallen]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The entire series has had cliche writing (to some people. Honestly I don't care whether the writing is cliche or not since I don't describe things as cliche. So long as it's done well).

Save the world, experiment gone wrong, etc.

Wouldn't be anything new. Besides, there's more than enough in the entire Gauntlet to explain her survival.


EDIT: Whether it was the devs' intent to make Leliana anti-mage or not is irrelevant considering her dialogue was poorly handled and makes her seem that way.

I just got the feeling that she was telling it like it is. A group of mages attacked her and tried to kill her. When she reports that back, she knows that the Divine will more than likely order an annulment. Thus, they sealed their fate. She might not like that, but she isn't going to neglect to mention it or outright lie about it either.

[Chun Hei]

In Legacy there is a note left by a research that indicates that the area Kirkwall drives mages insane and maybe "normal" people as well. That could go a long way to helping to explain all the crazy mages and STUPID Templar moments throughout the game. I hope DA2 has a full expansion that explores this so it does not seem like a last minute excuse.

Maybe Leliana and/or Cassandra can help Hawke investigate.

[Melca36]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Melca36 wrote...

Hopefully some secrets of the Chantry will be revealed in DA:3 that will give the zealots the chance to realize that  a great many things have been hidden from them and maybe then they will question their faith.

What secrets?

Did you play Legacy? It was revealed at the end the Chantry has not revealed certain things.

[Zanallen]

Aradace wrote...

Then why not hand wave EVERY decision we've made in both games so far?  By your logic that's exactly what they should have done.

@Redux - Nope, that's actually not it at all.  I rest my case, you've missed the principle entirely.  I'll give you a hint, it's in this post somewhere <_<

Technically, your decision was to corrupt the ashes. The consequence of that decision was that you had to fight Leliana and Wynne. Your decision still stands. You corrupted the sacred ashes. The only difference is that Leliana didn't die like you thought she did.

[David Gaider]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Mr. Gaider, I think the dialogue wasn't really good for her. It seems to convey that anti-mage stance. Add into that she doesn't even bother to research why the resolutionists have done what they did, and Leliana just seems like an incredibly different person. An incompetent person even.

Meredith usurps the throne of the Viscount for 3 years and becomes a tyrant to the mages, and Leliana didn't even bother to look into it? That's not okay.

Leliana was sent to find out what was causing the unrest, and as soon as the resolutionists attack her because she baited them, she blames them.

Hell Anders even says that it doesn't take a resolutionist to want freedom.

And if she was pro-chantry regarding mages, why doesn't she take issue with a Mage Warden who requested the boon for mage independence?

It would be difficult to answer your questions without first addressing the assumptions you're making-- and to do that, I'd need to go into more detail regarding what she was actually doing. Which I won't. Considering that she didn't go into it either, it would be a mistake to assume what she "bothered" to do on any front.

I'll say this much: Leliana stated that the mages seeking to abolish the Circle -- particularly in the manner the Resolutionists were going after it -- would cause problems for everyone, and very likely bring the Chantry down on them in force. She did not say she supported the Chantry doing so, nor that she thought that mages didn't have problems that required addressing. She said nothing of Meredith, nor did she suggest the Resolutionists acted without cause.

Some people are applying a great deal of weight to the way she said "tolerated"-- as if mages wanting freedom were terrible people deserving of nothing, as opposed to people who were causing terrible problems.

Would you feel better if she'd gone into depth to assure you (the player) how she really felt, and what she was going to do with the results of her investigation? Perhaps-- but that wasn't the point. You'll have to wait for those answers. In the meantime, simply realize that you're filling in the blanks... if you stick to the things that Leliana actually said, you'll be fine.

Or you can assume Leliana's a completely different person and interpret her words to mean she was sent to stop the rebellion instead of investigate it, and thinks that all mages wanting freedom are just trouble-makers and ingrates. It's up to you-- but suggesting that the dialogue conveyed things it didn't even touch on and saying things like "Leliana has changed! She hates mages now!" is a bit of a stretch even for speculation.

[Giggles_Manically]

Melca36 wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Melca36 wrote...

Hopefully some secrets of the Chantry will be revealed in DA:3 that will give the zealots the chance to realize that  a great many things have been hidden from them and maybe then they will question their faith.

What secrets?

Did you play Legacy? It was revealed at the end the Chantry has not revealed certain things.

Or does not know them.
I seriously Cory went and wrote down what happened and then the Chantry hid it. 

[Chun Hei]

Zanallen wrote...

Technically, your decision was to corrupt the ashes. The consequence of that decision was that you had to fight Leliana and Wynne. Your decision still stands. You corrupted the sacred ashes. The only difference is that Leliana didn't die like you thought she did.

Okay I finally figured out how you can fight Leliana now. Thank you.

Can a non-mage like Leliana become a spirit abomination like Anders? If Wynne was fighting along side her I guess that could explain how Leliana is alive. Not sure how that works if the Warden had already sided with the Templars at the Circle though.

The more I think about all the branches from DA:O the more I wonder if a truly faithful sequel was ever possible.

EDIT: Got my ME and DA names mixed up. Sorry.

Modifié par Chun Hei, 14 août 2011 - 12:18 .

[Zanallen]

That's the BSN for you, Mr. Gaider. We take opinions and stretch them into facts and take hypotheses and warp them until they are the god given truth.

[Zanallen]

Chun Hei wrote...

Okay I finally figured out how you can fight Leliana now. Thank you.

Can a non-mage like Leliana become a spirit abomination like Anders? If Wynne was fighting along side her I guess that could explain how Leliana is alive. Not sure how that works if the Warden had already sided with the Templars at the Circle though.

The more I think about all the branches from DA:O the more I wonder if a truly faithful sequel was ever possible.

EDIT: Got my ME and DA names mixed up. Sorry.

Well, as I have said several times before, the specific death blows are not canon. So, all the warden knows is that he fought Leliana and she supposedly died. Rogues have an ability where they fake their own deaths to get out of combat. The sacred ashes are also in that room and they are said to cure all ailments. The room is also surrounded by lyrium, which can have odd effects. Wynne is there as well and could heal Leliana. There is also some dragon's blood, which has magical properties. Hell, there are a bunch of different ways for Leliana to survive the encounter.

[Chun Hei]

I love how people who complain about the dogma of the Chantry go on to form their own absolute truths about DA and yell "heresy!" whenever the writers make their assumptions wrong. That is not to say that I do not have my own problems with what I see as story inconsistency but I am willing to admit that I may be wrong in my assumptions.

I will add that it SHOULD be safe to assume that Leliana is dead if the Warden cut off her head in DA:O though. That explanation better be a dozy or the "retcon" of letting her live better be awesome enough to make me ignore it.

EDIT: I see somebody answered me BEFORE I posted this. I just caught it and I was not ignoring you.

Modifié par Chun Hei, 14 août 2011 - 12:27 .

[Wulfram]

David Gaider wrote...

Would you feel better if she'd gone into depth to assure you (the player) how she really felt, and what she was going to do with the results of her investigation?

I'd feel better if Hawke was allowed to ask relevant questions and generally do what they were supposedly sent to - discuss the situation in Kirkwall.  Rather than standing there while we get what comes off as yet another rant about the dangers of magic.

[LobselVith8]

Chun Hei wrote...

In Legacy there is a note left by a research that indicates that the area Kirkwall drives mages insane and maybe "normal" people as well. That could go a long way to helping to explain all the crazy mages and STUPID Templar moments throughout the game. I hope DA2 has a full expansion that explores this so it does not seem like a last minute excuse.

Maybe Leliana and/or Cassandra can help Hawke investigate.

I still remember Cullen handwaving Hawke's warning about Anders, when the ex-Grey Warden is standing right next to them: victims of the Kirkwall Hellmouth, I suppose. I guess the cartoony portrayal of antagonists like Decimus, Tarohne, Grace, and Endgame Orsino and Meredith can be attributed to the Enigma of Kirkwall and the newest information from Legacy, but I don't find it satisfying from a story standpoint because the antagonists aren't interesting or compelling when they're written to be crazy and stupid. Even Hawke's intelligence and his ability to be proactive seems to be affected, which explains why he seems to go into a coma for three years and lets bad guys go cause mayhem instead of dealing with them ("Sheparding Wolves" and "Legacy").

[Zanallen]

Hawke uses his coma to slow down his aging. It also allows him to store up energy so he can perform super-human feats while awake.

[asindre]

Aradace wrote...

asindre wrote...

How do you know everything about her from a 5 min conversation?

Because some folks actually "got to know her" in Origins.  And basing their assumptions from there to here.

People change in seven years. And even if she didn't, a 5 min conversation isn't really enough to know if she's anti-mage.

[Chun Hei]

@ LobselVivth8 -- I am hoping that Cullen -- with or without clothes -- will co-star in an expansion that will allow him to try to explain or redeem the Templar order after the chaos of DA2. Maybe even explain them more sympathetically than "we are an order that thumps mages. We may not like it all the time but that is what we got to do."

[Cutlass Jack]

Chun Hei wrote...

Can a non-mage like Leliana become a spirit abomination like Anders? If Wynne was fighting along side her I guess that could explain how Leliana is alive. Not sure how that works if the Warden had already sided with the Templars at the Circle though.

Well Justice's original host was a dead non-mage. So, I'm guessing its possible.

[LobselVith8]

Chun Hei wrote...

@ LobselVivth8 -- I am hoping that Cullen -- with or without clothes -- will co-star in an expansion that will allow him to try to explain or redeem the Templar order after the chaos of DA2. Maybe even explain them more sympathetically than "we are an order that thumps mages. We may not like it all the time but that is what we got to do."

I thought Origins did that pretty well, with Ser Bryant and his templars watching over the people in Lothering and refusing to leave (until that was rectonned in Dragon Age 2), Ser Otto, and even Knight-Commander Greagoir when he discussed with a great deal of remorse the prospect of the Right of Annulment against the Circle of Kirkwall. I was surprised that we never got to see more of Ser Thrask, since he seemed to be a really good man and one of the few people with any sanity and common sense in Kirkwall. As for the Knight-Captain, I wonder why so little was done to address Cullen's change of heart in regards to mages - especially why he'd side with a pro-mage Hawke who sided with the Circle of Kirkwall against Meredith. If Hawke's killing templars left and right to protect the mages, why is Cullen suddenly defecting from Meredith's side to protect Hawke?

[lobi]

Chun Hei wrote...

In Legacy there is a note left by a research that indicates that the area Kirkwall drives mages insane and maybe "normal" people as well. That could go a long way to helping to explain all the crazy mages and STUPID Templar moments throughout the game. I hope DA2 has a full expansion that explores this so it does not seem like a last minute excuse.

Maybe Leliana and/or Cassandra can help Hawke investigate.

I would not count on it. Writing sequels containing Player Chars from previous games seems to have been put in the "Takes money away from my new boat" basket. Most you could hope for is an oblique reference in a codex entry or perhaps a comment from an NPC. I doubt we will even get cameo's if they decide to make a 3 at all. (ok maybe a snark too far regarding cameos)

Modifié par lobi, 14 août 2011 - 01:00 .

[lobi]

Im gonna go back to bed.

Modifié par lobi, 14 août 2011 - 01:05 .

[TEWR]

David Gaider wrote...


It would be difficult to answer your questions without first addressing the assumptions you're making-- and to do that, I'd need to go into more detail regarding what she was actually doing. Which I won't. Considering that she didn't go into it either, it would be a mistake to assume what she "bothered" to do on any front.

I'll say this much: Leliana stated that the mages seeking to abolish the Circle -- particularly in the manner the Resolutionists were going after it -- would cause problems for everyone, and very likely bring the Chantry down on them in force. She did not say she supported the Chantry doing so, nor that she thought that mages didn't have problems that required addressing. She said nothing of Meredith, nor did she suggest the Resolutionists acted without cause.

Some people are applying a great deal of weight to the way she said "tolerated"-- as if mages wanting freedom were terrible people deserving of nothing, as opposed to people who were causing terrible problems.

Fair enough. There's just something about the way she said what she said that comes off as anti-mage. Like when someone makes a comment and someone takes it the wrong way.

Which actually isn't too far off from how people (myself among them sometimes because I think about that scene a lot to try and understand what's going on there) are interpreting her comments

Well, it's not like the Chantry has been listening to the mages. Elthina keeps preaching about neutrality and the Maker intervening. So why shouldn't they try and get the attention of the Divine? If all of their efforts have been wasted and their lives made miserable, then they've been pushed into despair and have little else to turn to.

The Chantry hasn't listened to them before, and I can't blame them for thinking the Chantry won't ever listen to them. 1000 years of servitude where they've given up many rights, and the Chantry still treats them as if they aren't human. As if they are cursed.

Would you feel better if she'd gone into depth to assure you (the player) how she really felt, and what she was going to do with the results of her investigation? Perhaps-- but that wasn't the point. You'll have to wait for those answers. In the meantime, simply realize that you're filling in the blanks... if you stick to the things that Leliana actually said, you'll be fine.

Or you can assume Leliana's a completely different person and interpret her words to mean she was sent to stop the rebellion instead of investigate it, and thinks that all mages wanting freedom are just trouble-makers and ingrates. It's up to you-- but suggesting that the dialogue conveyed things it didn't even touch on and saying things like "Leliana has changed! She hates mages now!" is a bit of a stretch even for speculation.

I'd feel better if Hawke was able to tell her about Kirkwall's growing problems. Even if she already knows, Hawke doesn't know that she knows. So even if she knows, which we the player don't know, it helps to know that Hawke knows he needs to tell her what she possibly already knows. That way, he'll feel safe in knowing that she now knows what he knows, y'know?

Yes, I did that on purpose.

Hawke was sent as an envoy to meet with her, and all he does is stand there and listen to Leliana talk about "Resolutionists bad. If Kirkwall falls to magic, that's very bad. Magic is bad and mages are always insane" (obvious paraphrase with some stuff thrown in).

And to be honest, much of the game came off with that feeling. Decimus, Grace, Orsino. The only two that didn't come off like that were Quentin and Tarohne, because I thought they were portrayed well (minor grievances with the Quentin story arc aside).

But Grace, Decimus, and Orsino were given the worst portrayal. Even Orsino's ending was unwarranted. There were other ways the Harvester ritual boss fight could've been used for pro-mage people that didn't result in Orsino going all Harvestino.

Though.... that's another issue for another day. It's one of the biggest things I hated about DAII, I'll say that much.

It wouldn't have even been so bad if Leliana had explicitly stated that if Kirkwall falls to "the extreme Resolutionists' magic (which I'm now assuming was the intent), then no one will be safe."


So it's not only an issue with how Leliana said what she said, but how Hawke reacts to what she said.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 14 août 2011 - 04:09 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

LobselVith8 wrote...


I thought Origins did that pretty well, with Ser Bryant and his templars watching over the people in Lothering and refusing to leave (until that was rectonned in Dragon Age 2), Ser Otto, and even Knight-Commander Greagoir when he discussed with a great deal of remorse the prospect of the Right of Annulment against the Circle of Kirkwall. I was surprised that we never got to see more of Ser Thrask, since he seemed to be a really good man and one of the few people with any sanity and common sense in Kirkwall. As for the Knight-Captain, I wonder why so little was done to address Cullen's change of heart in regards to mages - especially why he'd side with a pro-mage Hawke who sided with the Circle of Kirkwall against Meredith. If Hawke's killing templars left and right to protect the mages, why is Cullen suddenly defecting from Meredith's side to protect Hawke?

Origins actually made me more sympathetic to the templars than DA2 did, even though I tended to favor the mages more. In Origins, not only did you have decent templars like Bryant and Otto, but Gregoire. He was strict and stern, yet he wasn't a complete insane idiot or fanatic. I ended up really liking Gregoire alot as a templar and Knight commander, and even sympathized with the difficult position alot of templars were in, and how their point of view had merits and value in its own. And unlike Meredith, Gregoire had every reason and right to call for the Annullment of the Circle. In Origins, Annulling the Circle was actually something I had to think about, because both choices were pretty valid and had good reasons. The templars did not cause the madness, it was a small group of Uldred's followers that did, and they did so because Uldred was taking advantage of the Civil war to push for mage rights.

That sympathy for the templar order vanished completely in DA2. If their intent was to somehow make the templars a viable choice of who to support, they failed. Had the Gallows had a Knight Commander like Gregoire, or shown me more templars that behaved like normal, responsible and mentally stable human beings instead  of acting like they were auditioning to join the SS or Gestapo, then perhaps I would have considered both sides more evenly. Instead, you had Mad Cow Meredith encouraging or ignoring psyopathic behavior on the part of her own troopers.  So when the mages become out of control, I felt no real desire nor compulsion to help the templars rein in the monsters they helped actively create. The only way I would have partook in annulling the Circle if it also meant annulling the templars along with them afterwards, because they were as bad, if not worse, in pricnipal, thanthe mages.