David Gaider wrote...
Perhaps-- but that wasn't the point. You'll have to wait for those answers. In the meantime, simply realize that you're filling in the blanks... if you stick to the things that Leliana actually said, you'll be fine.
Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Origins actually made me more sympathetic to the templars than DA2 did, even though I tended to favor the mages more. In Origins, not only did you have decent templars like Bryant and Otto, but Gregoire. He was strict and stern, yet he wasn't a complete insane idiot or fanatic. I ended up really liking Gregoire alot as a templar and Knight commander, and even sympathized with the difficult position alot of templars were in, and how their point of view had merits and value in its own. And unlike Meredith, Gregoire had every reason and right to call for the Annullment of the Circle. In Origins, Annulling the Circle was actually something I had to think about, because both choices were pretty valid and had good reasons. The templars did not cause the madness, it was a small group of Uldred's followers that did, and they did so because Uldred was taking advantage of the Civil war to push for mage rights.
That sympathy for the templar order vanished completely in DA2. If their intent was to somehow make the templars a viable choice of who to support, they failed. Had the Gallows had a Knight Commander like Gregoire, or shown me more templars that behaved like normal, responsible and mentally stable human beings instead of acting like they were auditioning to join the SS or Gestapo, then perhaps I would have considered both sides more evenly. Instead, you had Mad Cow Meredith encouraging or ignoring psyopathic behavior on the part of her own troopers. So when the mages become out of control, I felt no real desire nor compulsion to help the templars rein in the monsters they helped actively create. The only way I would have partook in annulling the Circle if it also meant annulling the templars along with them afterwards, because they were as bad, if not worse, in pricnipal, thanthe mages.
Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 14 août 2011 - 02:11 .
David Gaider wrote...
You'll have to wait for those answers.
Modifié par KawaiiKatie, 14 août 2011 - 02:39 .
Rifneno wrote...
David Gaider wrote...
LobselVith8 wrote...
More than a few people have seen Leliana's cameo as a sign that she's now anti-mage, given her comments about "tolerating" mages who want independence from the Chantry and the general comments she made, as well as her attitude about an Exalted March against Kirkwall and its inhabitiants if mages gain autonomy from the Chantry. Given how Leliana seemed to be anti-mage in "Faith," despite her portrayal in Origins (especially in her conversations with Wynne), do you think she going to continue to be portrayed as an anti-mage Chantry member, or will she be be depicted as she was in her first appearance?
We haven't "portrayed" her as anti-mage. Some people (particularly those who are prone to exaggeration on the topic) do seem to interpret her as such, however, based on relatively little information.
Then you failed. She went from sympathetic to a blood mage that tried to murder an Arl to saying a handful of rebels in the Circle from Hell condemns them. And given Elthina said she's there to investigate for an exalted march... Well, I fail to see how anyone can say she's the same old Leliana from Origins.
LobselVith8 wrote...
I agree completely, Rifneno. It's certainly not like Leliana held back on her name, her (possible) association with The Warden, or her thoughts on the situation in Kirkwall.
Chun Hei wrote...
LobselVith8 wrote...
I agree completely, Rifneno. It's certainly not like Leliana held back on her name, her (possible) association with The Warden, or her thoughts on the situation in Kirkwall.
But this was not a case of a simple confused blood mage starving in a prison cell. If Leliana had done even a simple investigation she would have seen evidence of dozens of blood mages running rampant all over the city. She may have found a lot of evidence that the Templars were too harsh and may have provoked it but she had to deal with a situation where it was when she came into it.
Chun Hei wrote...
Plus we have no idea how many dealings she may have had with the Resolutionists before then. For all we know the Resolutionists may have been responsible for many terrorist blood magic attacks or be funded by Tevinter.
David Gaider wrote...
The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Mr. Gaider, I think the dialogue wasn't really good for her. It seems to convey that anti-mage stance. Add into that she doesn't even bother to research why the resolutionists have done what they did, and Leliana just seems like an incredibly different person. An incompetent person even.
Meredith usurps the throne of the Viscount for 3 years and becomes a tyrant to the mages, and Leliana didn't even bother to look into it? That's not okay.
Leliana was sent to find out what was causing the unrest, and as soon as the resolutionists attack her because she baited them, she blames them.
Hell Anders even says that it doesn't take a resolutionist to want freedom.
And if she was pro-chantry regarding mages, why doesn't she take issue with a Mage Warden who requested the boon for mage independence?
It would be difficult to answer your questions without first addressing the assumptions you're making-- and to do that, I'd need to go into more detail regarding what she was actually doing. Which I won't. Considering that she didn't go into it either, it would be a mistake to assume what she "bothered" to do on any front.
I'll say this much: Leliana stated that the mages seeking to abolish the Circle -- particularly in the manner the Resolutionists were going after it -- would cause problems for everyone, and very likely bring the Chantry down on them in force. She did not say she supported the Chantry doing so, nor that she thought that mages didn't have problems that required addressing. She said nothing of Meredith, nor did she suggest the Resolutionists acted without cause.
Some people are applying a great deal of weight to the way she said "tolerated"-- as if mages wanting freedom were terrible people deserving of nothing, as opposed to people who were causing terrible problems.
Would you feel better if she'd gone into depth to assure you (the player) how she really felt, and what she was going to do with the results of her investigation? Perhaps-- but that wasn't the point. You'll have to wait for those answers. In the meantime, simply realize that you're filling in the blanks... if you stick to the things that Leliana actually said, you'll be fine.
Or you can assume Leliana's a completely different person and interpret her words to mean she was sent to stop the rebellion instead of investigate it, and thinks that all mages wanting freedom are just trouble-makers and ingrates. It's up to you-- but suggesting that the dialogue conveyed things it didn't even touch on and saying things like "Leliana has changed! She hates mages now!" is a bit of a stretch even for speculation.
LobselVith8 wrote...
If Leliana had done her job, she would have realized that the unrest she came to investigate was being provoked by the Knight-Commander turned dictator, who was holding power and preventing the election of a new Viscount, which caused mages and templars to unite in an effort to overthrow her from her de facto Viscount position.
Aradace wrote...
Again, it's still lame IMO. It'd have been much better if during the fight she had popped stealth and "vanished". FD cant even aptly explain it "properly" because any fighter worth their grit, especially if they know the person they're fighting could possibly try to FD, would walk over and make sure to "Finsih" the job. Because I know I would. You're telling me that the Warden can slay the Archdemon but not have the common sense to make sure that someone is dead?
Guest_Puddi III_*
Filament wrote...
That's what FD stands for? Unless I missed the joke...
Modifié par In Exile, 14 août 2011 - 05:10 .
I lost all respect for Gregoir when one of the comics showed him punching a pregnant women for not telling him who the dad was.The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
But even so, I greatly respected the Templars under Gregoir. Even in the face of danger, Gregoir followed protocol and requested permission from the Grand Cleric of Ferelden for the RoA. Though, he didn't have enough manpower to Annul the Circle without aid. But still, he followed protocol.
He's also, while a strict person, a fair-minded Templar who seems to primarily care about policing mages. Then along with Ser Bryant who was willing to let a mage roam free because the Blight took precedent, Ser Otto who cares about the people in the Alienage, and the Knight Commander of Redcliffe being a pro-mage person, I'm led to believe that Ferelden has the best Templars, along with the best Circle, in Thedas.
Not only that, but the Mages' Collective has been taking steps to improve how people perceive magic and mages by making problems disappear before the Chantry gets involved.
Northern Sun wrote...
I lost all respect for Gregoir when one of the comics showed him punching a pregnant women for not telling him who the dad was.The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
But even so, I greatly respected the Templars under Gregoir. Even in the face of danger, Gregoir followed protocol and requested permission from the Grand Cleric of Ferelden for the RoA. Though, he didn't have enough manpower to Annul the Circle without aid. But still, he followed protocol.
He's also, while a strict person, a fair-minded Templar who seems to primarily care about policing mages. Then along with Ser Bryant who was willing to let a mage roam free because the Blight took precedent, Ser Otto who cares about the people in the Alienage, and the Knight Commander of Redcliffe being a pro-mage person, I'm led to believe that Ferelden has the best Templars, along with the best Circle, in Thedas.
Not only that, but the Mages' Collective has been taking steps to improve how people perceive magic and mages by making problems disappear before the Chantry gets involved.
The Baconer wrote...
Northern Sun wrote...
I lost all respect for Gregoir when one of the comics showed him punching a pregnant women for not telling him who the dad was.The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
But even so, I greatly respected the Templars under Gregoir. Even in the face of danger, Gregoir followed protocol and requested permission from the Grand Cleric of Ferelden for the RoA. Though, he didn't have enough manpower to Annul the Circle without aid. But still, he followed protocol.
He's also, while a strict person, a fair-minded Templar who seems to primarily care about policing mages. Then along with Ser Bryant who was willing to let a mage roam free because the Blight took precedent, Ser Otto who cares about the people in the Alienage, and the Knight Commander of Redcliffe being a pro-mage person, I'm led to believe that Ferelden has the best Templars, along with the best Circle, in Thedas.
Not only that, but the Mages' Collective has been taking steps to improve how people perceive magic and mages by making problems disappear before the Chantry gets involved.
What.
The Baconer wrote...
Northern Sun wrote...
I lost all respect for Gregoir when one of the comics showed him punching a pregnant women for not telling him who the dad was.The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
But even so, I greatly respected the Templars under Gregoir. Even in the face of danger, Gregoir followed protocol and requested permission from the Grand Cleric of Ferelden for the RoA. Though, he didn't have enough manpower to Annul the Circle without aid. But still, he followed protocol.
He's also, while a strict person, a fair-minded Templar who seems to primarily care about policing mages. Then along with Ser Bryant who was willing to let a mage roam free because the Blight took precedent, Ser Otto who cares about the people in the Alienage, and the Knight Commander of Redcliffe being a pro-mage person, I'm led to believe that Ferelden has the best Templars, along with the best Circle, in Thedas.
Not only that, but the Mages' Collective has been taking steps to improve how people perceive magic and mages by making problems disappear before the Chantry gets involved.
What.
Guest_Puddi III_*
DaBigDragon wrote...
So, would we have to wait until a DA2 DLC for answers or DA3? lol.
The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Origins actually made me more sympathetic to the templars than DA2 did, even though I tended to favor the mages more. In Origins, not only did you have decent templars like Bryant and Otto, but Gregoire. He was strict and stern, yet he wasn't a complete insane idiot or fanatic. I ended up really liking Gregoire alot as a templar and Knight commander, and even sympathized with the difficult position alot of templars were in, and how their point of view had merits and value in its own. And unlike Meredith, Gregoire had every reason and right to call for the Annullment of the Circle. In Origins, Annulling the Circle was actually something I had to think about, because both choices were pretty valid and had good reasons. The templars did not cause the madness, it was a small group of Uldred's followers that did, and they did so because Uldred was taking advantage of the Civil war to push for mage rights.
Uldred had been scheming long before that. Wynne suspects he and Loghain were in cahoots. While that's unknown, what is known is that he cast himself in a good light by finding apprentices who were dabbling in blood magic. He knew what to look for because he himself was a blood mage.
I'm willing to bet he's the one who set Jowan up.
At any rate, while I admired Ferelden's Templars, they didn't show any truly bad ones until Awakening. Now, either Ferelden is incredibly lucky and didn't have any bad Templars (unlikely given how Anders says the Templars in Ferelden raped mages), or Bioware didn't think to show the bad eggs until Awakening.
But even so, I greatly respected the Templars under Gregoir. Even in the face of danger, Gregoir followed protocol and requested permission from the Grand Cleric of Ferelden for the RoA. Though, he didn't have enough manpower to Annul the Circle without aid. But still, he followed protocol.
He's also, while a strict person, a fair-minded Templar who seems to primarily care about policing mages. Then along with Ser Bryant who was willing to let a mage roam free because the Blight took precedent, Ser Otto who cares about the people in the Alienage, and the Knight Commander of Redcliffe being a pro-mage person, I'm led to believe that Ferelden has the best Templars, along with the best Circle, in Thedas.
Not only that, but the Mages' Collective has been taking steps to improve how people perceive magic and mages by making problems disappear before the Chantry gets involved.That sympathy for the templar order vanished completely in DA2. If their intent was to somehow make the templars a viable choice of who to support, they failed. Had the Gallows had a Knight Commander like Gregoire, or shown me more templars that behaved like normal, responsible and mentally stable human beings instead of acting like they were auditioning to join the SS or Gestapo, then perhaps I would have considered both sides more evenly. Instead, you had Mad Cow Meredith encouraging or ignoring psyopathic behavior on the part of her own troopers. So when the mages become out of control, I felt no real desire nor compulsion to help the templars rein in the monsters they helped actively create. The only way I would have partook in annulling the Circle if it also meant annulling the templars along with them afterwards, because they were as bad, if not worse, in pricnipal, thanthe mages.
Agreed. The entire Mage-Templar plot was loosely tied together over the three acts when there was more than enough to tie it together completely. Having Meredith fall back on the idol was not necessary when her own zeal would've sufficed.
Bryy_Miller wrote...
I don't see why this is such a big deal. This is how stories are told. Not everything is answered at once. It would, quite frankly, be weird if we did find out about Leliana in DA2.
Modifié par Wulfram, 14 août 2011 - 09:44 .
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