44 réponses à ce sujet

[GR Groe]

Thinking through my playthroughs of Origins and DA2, I've found a great deal of similarity in how I considered and handled Loghain and Meredith. On the surface, at least, both characters share similarities. Both go to extremes due to deeply held prejudices and fears, both usurp a royal title in the name of security, both hold to their convictions even in the face of much more rational opposition (a debatable point with Meredith, perhaps, but I think everyone agrees it's hard to truly care about Loghain's politics when darkspawn are ravaging the countryside.)
 
I vividly remember how much I hated Loghain in my first playthrough of Origins. There was no doubt in my mind of his guilt, and anytime Alistair brought it up I agreed with him and sympathized with him wholeheartedly. Killing the Archdemon and stopping the Blight was a very low priority compared to getting to Denerim and confronting Loghain, as far as I was concerned. In hindsight of course, thanks in large part to knowing how the game turns out, I find myself empathizing much more with Loghain, even if I still disagree with his actions. The cutscenes with him and Anora and Howe now affect me much more deeply, knowing as I do what's going through Loghain's head. It's to the point where I have a hard time even thinking of him as a threat while playing through the main quest (though that's probably also due to the fact that I now know Urthemiel's name, and that DA2 has proven that the world is much bigger than just Ferelden).

I find myself in a similar situation with Meredith. I kept track of all the mentions of her leading up to the game's release, how she tried to keep Hawke and family out of Kirkwall, how she rules over the Gallows with an iron fist and has the viscount in her pocket. I knew she was going to be a bad guy a la Loghain going in. Within the game itself, a great deal of time is devoted to building her up as a serious threat. "You hear terrible stories about the templars...and Knight-Commander Meredith..." Being the gullible gamer that I am, I bought into it so much that when she finally made her appearance in Act 2, I was scared ****less (I had thought it was templar Carver come back to save his brother from a Saarebas. Imagine my surprise.) And all of a sudden, this character I had been fearing was an ally, and come Act 3 I was dealing with her as an equal. I still considered her a villain, but on that first playthrough I had no idea how to handle her. The rest of course is history, terrorist Anders, Right of Annulment, Red Lyrium sword. I sided with the mages, and from that moment on I found myself treating her the same way I had treated Loghain. She had to die.

Here in hindsight of DA2, I'm returning to Meredith as I returned to Loghain, finding that I don't hate her as much, but yet and still finding it difficult to empathize with her as I did with Loghain. I understand Meredith now, abomination sister and all, but she still seems a tyrant to me. A well-meaning, misguided tyrant, sincere in her convictions, but siding with the templars has become no easier. I'm aware Meredith isn't quite as complicated as Loghain was, but I feel there's room to make a comparison, at least. That's what these forums are for, far as I'm concered. Thoughts?

[Gervaise]

Did you ever spare Loghain's life, particularly if you have done the deal to be joint ruler with Anora?  The real insight initally comes from talking with Anora about him, which I only seemed able to do as human noble/potential consort.  Then after the Landsmeet you give him a few gifts to get him started on the approval scale and start to talk with him and I started to understand him a bit better.  Then when the time came for Riorden to tell us about the archdemon and Morrigan's offer, the way he responded to this came as a complete surprise, so by the end I did have a sort of grudging respect for him, inspite of all he had done. 

You don't really get the same with Meredith - just one conversation if you support her and none if you don't.  Yes, it gives you some insight into why she is a Templar but you don't get the corresponding depth you do with Loghain.  Both are ruthless, both are sincere in their own delusions but that is about as far as it goes.   Loghain certainly acknowledges that he has a need for redemption - Meredith never gets the chance but I doubt that she would, even if the idol hadn't sent her mad.

[Gespenst]

GR Groe wrote...

Here in hindsight of DA2, I'm returning to Meredith as I returned to Loghain, finding that I don't hate her as much, but yet and still finding it difficult to empathize with her as I did with Loghain. I understand Meredith now, abomination sister and all, but she still seems a tyrant to me. A well-meaning, misguided tyrant, sincere in her convictions, but siding with the templars has become no easier. I'm aware Meredith isn't quite as complicated as Loghain was, but I feel there's room to make a comparison, at least. That's what these forums are for, far as I'm concered. Thoughts?

I'm pretty much in the same place, I probably dislike Meredith more than you and maybe feel a little sorrier for Loghain but otherwise... I think it's easier to sympathise with Loghain, especially given how he acts if you elect to execute him.

GR Groe wrote...

abomination sister

Wait, what? How do you find that out? I was working on a crackpot theory that she was actually a mage that had hidden her ability so well she became Knight Commander (and that would explain the statues... I suppose they could be ancient Golems or some here-to-fore unknown magical automatons that the lyrium activated)

[bleetman]

Gespenst wrote...

Wait, what? How do you find that out?

If you sided with her in the argument between her and Orsino at the beginning of act three, she mentions it when you go see her in the Gallows, I believe.

[Knight of Dane]

Gespenst wrote...

GR Groe wrote...

abomination sister

Wait, what? How do you find that out? I was working on a crackpot theory that she was actually a mage that had hidden her ability so well she became Knight Commander (and that would explain the statues... I suppose they could be ancient Golems or some here-to-fore unknown magical automatons that the lyrium activated)

Heh, pretty fail to start theorizing when you haven't even seen all points.

[GR Groe]

Gervaise wrote...

You don't really get the same with Meredith - just one conversation if you support her and none if you don't.  Yes, it gives you some insight into why she is a Templar but you don't get the corresponding depth you do with Loghain.  Both are ruthless, both are sincere in their own delusions but that is about as far as it goes.   Loghain certainly acknowledges that he has a need for redemption - Meredith never gets the chance but I doubt that she would, even if the idol hadn't sent her mad.

Yeah, that's true. The first time I spared Loghain and took the time to talk to him, I was nearly brought to tears, he was so depthful. You bring up a good point, I suppose it's good to think about whether or not they truly serve the same role in their respective games. Meredith is more or less the principle antagonist, whereas Loghain is the primary obstacle on the way to the archdemon. Heh, perhaps it'd be better to compare Meredith and Urthemiel? I don't know. I suppose I feel like Meredith and Loghain both sit, or are meant to sit, in that morally grey area of the fiction. The problem with her, I suppose, is that while her cause might be morally grey, she herself is not, at least not in the long term.

[Sepewrath]

I would actually say that Meredith has more depth to her character and more importantly her actions than Loghain. RPG's often try to link the player character the villain, so you can see them as a person, but the problem is from a story perspective, it doesn't work as you don't necessarily need to know them as a person as much as you need to know why the do what they do.

Loghain was evil for no reason, you had to just assume it was the staus quo, power grab routine; but you didn't get filled in, until late in the game, where you had to give up Alistair to find out. But for the whole game, your suppose to hate him because he is the copy and paste villain of the story. Meredith on the other hand, was given reason for her actions and not the sister angle. You saw yourself with the blood mages, the attacks on the Templar's, the weakness of Dumar, did she go overboard, of course, but her actions were far more rational than Loghain, throwing away an entire army, crippling another and ignoring the Darkspawn while he tried to kill two people and sell elves into slavery.

Loghain was made to fit a certain archetype, whether it actually meshed with the story or not. And then they ask you to spare Loghain, when you have no reason to do so. He committed regicide, that he tried to pin on you, he weakened the country as a whole, he was a slaver, he conspired, he was no better than the Darkspawn you killed by the dozens. It was a hollow choice, as opposed to Meredith where her side of the argument, which makes much more sense had been presented throughout the entire game. I spared Loghain, once and only because I was metagaming, if I didn't oppose the Chantry system, I could much more readily side with Meredith, whether I heard her story or not.

[dragonflight288]

Loghain always calls out Orlais. We get many hints throughout the game that the Wardens entered the country from Orlais. In fact, considering the survival rate of warden recruits, I would say most of them were Orlesian.

Loghain was seeing threats where there were none, but he also didn't have all the facts about the blight either. In fact, we don't even know the facts ourselves until after the Landsmeet. As far as we knew, all we had to do was cut off the archdemon's head and Loghain was acting under the same theory.

[LovelyLittleLeprechauns]

I don't think there are many similarities between Loghain and Meridith except for the fact that they feel they are the only ones capable of protecting their "home" and that they are the main villains.

Loghain is acting from a standpoint where he believes the country is in danger of an evasion from Orlais and believes the darkspawn are not a threat. We all assume he is this evil coldhearted bastard based on what we see, especially the first time we play the game, but if we look closer we see that he didn't plan to kill Cailan, he actually advised him not to fight on the front lines, it just happened that way. He never actually took any power from Anora, I believe that he thought she was incapable of protecting Fereldan on her own and that is why he declared himself her reagent.  He still made some terrible decisions, like selling city elves into slavery, but we see he isn't really "evil" or crazy. If anyone is the coldhearted bastard, it is Howe and it seems Howe had a lot of influence on Loghain. Howe was solely responsible for the Cousland massacre, Loghain just didn't do anything about it becasue  Howe was a powerful ally and he didn't want to lose that support. 

While Meredith had many reasons of her own for doing what she did, there was a point where she crossed a line. We all know that Kirkwall is teeming with bloodmages, so she has a right to be concerned. She had some harsh standpoints to begin with and kept a tight check on the circle mages (though it still didn't help) but calling for the right of annulment when Anders blew up the chantry was crossing a line. Anders wasn't even apart of the circle, he was an apostate. The circle had nothing to do with Anders! I know that Anders actions were the last straw in convincing Meridith that mages were a threat to eliminate, but at this point she wasn't coming from a rational standpoint anymore. She was crazy, literally crazy. The idol made her mad, and we see this no matter if we side with mages or the templars. It makes me wonder what would have happened if she had never come in contact with the idol because she was under its influence for years (between 3 and 6). We all know what happened to Bartrand with his short contact with the idol.... It makes it really hard to empathize with Meridith.

I can understand Meridith's actions in the beginning because they were rational but it doesn't make me like her character. Loghain wasn't crazy, he was under a lot of pressure, but not crazy. We know that King Cailan was planning on marrying Empress Celine of Orlais and divorcing Anora, although Loghain did have suspicions, hedid  not know this until Return to Ostagar. The writers have said that Loghain never actually meant to kill Arl Eamon just incapacitate him for a while (sorry can't find the link). Loghain and King Cailan had been arguing and Loghain suspected that there would be a confrontation between them in the near future. He knew that that Arl Eamon would undoubtedly choose Cailan's side so he wanted to get rid of the threat before it was started. Not everything Loghain did, or what happened in DA:O was premeditated or even planned.

I understand Loghain's reasoning much more than Meridith's. It doesn't mean what Loghain did was right, he certainly made mistakes and he even admits that he was wrong. Meridith never does. Loghain excepts his defeit in the end, Meridith does not. In truth, Hawke doesn't kill Meridith, the idol does.

Sorry my post is so long!

[Jackalope]

FYI...I killed Loghain in all my playthroughs, but bounced everywhere on mage/templar stuff.

Sepewrath wrote...

I would actually say that Meredith has more depth to her character and more importantly her actions than Loghain. RPG's often try to link the player character the villain, so you can see them as a person, but the problem is from a story perspective, it doesn't work as you don't necessarily need to know them as a person as much as you need to know why the do what they do.

Loghain was evil for no reason, you had to just assume it was the staus quo, power grab routine; but you didn't get filled in, until late in the game, where you had to give up Alistair to find out. But for the whole game, your suppose to hate him because he is the copy and paste villain of the story. Meredith on the other hand, was given reason for her actions and not the sister angle. You saw yourself with the blood mages, the attacks on the Templar's, the weakness of Dumar, did she go overboard, of course, but her actions were far more rational than Loghain, throwing away an entire army, crippling another and ignoring the Darkspawn while he tried to kill two people and sell elves into slavery.

I pretty much agree with you, but I think you could also say that
Loghain 'turned evil' right before DAO starts, and Meredieth 'turned
evil' at the end of Act III.  I think Howe is more 'evil for no reason', because he doesn't make Loghain look better by comparison.

It's
always more interesting to watch heroes fall -- MacBeth or Anakin
Skywalker or Lancelot.  I think Meredith could be viewed as more depth
because that change occurs during the same.  Loghain suffers from having
already made his choice before the Warden arrives.

Loghain was made to fit a certain archetype, whether it actually meshed with the story or not. And then they ask you to spare Loghain, when you have no reason to do so. He committed regicide, that he tried to pin on you, he weakened the country as a whole, he was a slaver, he conspired, he was no better than the Darkspawn you killed by the dozens. It was a hollow choice, as opposed to Meredith where her side of the argument, which makes much more sense had been presented throughout the entire game. I spared Loghain, once and only because I was metagaming, if I didn't oppose the Chantry system, I could much more readily side with Meredith, whether I heard her story or not.

I think that's another reason Loghain looks less developed compared to Meredith.  Siding with Meredith is does work for some Hawkes -- she's ignored you if you're a mage, she's trying to keep things together, and Orisno wasn't telling the entire truth.  Some of Hawkes felt a little dirty siding with her, but it had some perks.

Siding with Loghain always felt self-detrustive to me.  The man has spent like a year trying to kill my Warden after stabbing her in the back in the middle of the war.  "Here!  Join my Warden!  Sleep in the camp!  Pet my dog!  Let me just offer you my pretty knife for the eventually backstabbing."

[jamesp81]

Actually, I disagree with the OP.

I can sympathize with Loghain. His fears were not unfounded, as the Orlesians had, in the past, used a blight to help themselves to other people's lands. I don't relish killing Logain in my Origins playthroughs, but I don't see a good alternative. I refuse to deny to Alistair justice for the death of the only father figure he ever knew. However much I might sympathize with Loghain's motivations, I can't agree with his actions. The whole situation is just a great damned shame.

Meredith, on the other hand, was just a crazy **** from the first. She was a rabid dog with designs of taking on powers that weren't hers to take. Putting that **** down did the whole world a favor, and I never once even considered siding with her.

Modifié par jamesp81, 27 octobre 2011 - 07:56 .

[maxernst]

I can't really sympathize with Meredith. Yes, there are a lot of blood mages in Kirkwall but (with the exception of Grace and a couple others from Starkhaven), they're not in the Circle and oppressing the Circle doesn't do anything about them. And Kirkwall already has a reputation as an abnormally harsh place for mages in Act1. Even before she's driven completely crazy by the idol, she's allowing her Templars to run rampant. I can imagine a sympathetic zealous Knight Commander (e.g. Cullen) who would be harsh, but such a commander would have to believe that they are protecting the mages--and Meredith is failing to protect them. Failing badly.

As to Loghain, I know many others feel differently, but his heel-face turn at the Landsmeet never worked for me. I realize he's supposed to have honestly believed he was doing the best for Ferelden, and I've read all the justifications for him, but that's undermined by his presentation as a moustache-twirling villain when you meet him at Ostagar, and the fact that you've really done nothing at the Landsmeet to prove that you're not working for Orlais. The character is a whole lot less interesting if you view his entire campaign as simply a power grab, but it makes a lot of things in the game fit together better. Admittedly, the game works better thematically if his intentions were good, however, because "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" is a recurring theme in DA:O: consider Branka, Uldred, Connor. But the character just didn't work for me.

[Cody]

maxernst wrote...

As to Loghain, I know many others feel differently, but his heel-face turn at the Landsmeet never worked for me. I realize he's supposed to have honestly believed he was doing the best for Ferelden, and I've read all the justifications for him, but that's undermined by his presentation as a moustache-twirling villain when you meet him at Ostagar, and the fact that you've really done nothing at the Landsmeet to prove that you're not working for Orlais.

Which is why I honestly believe that Loghain has a form of PTSD(Post Traumatic Stress Disorder) for all the things that he has seen and been through during the rule of Orlais. The way he was acting when Cailan was getting chummy with the Orlesian empress was almost irrational, which could meen that his actions were bordering on fear. Fear that Orlais would strike again and rule over Fereldan and put others through what he went through growing up under their rule.

His fear though was not really that of a cowards. His fear and anger at the Orlesians were basically driving him mad. Really after witnessing all of his actions and hearing his reasons for it, it really seems to me that he had a case of PTSD.

Or **** wirting on Biowares part.

[Former_Fiend]

I'm biased here. Loghain's probably my favorite character in the series. Meredith always seemed rather one-note to me. Loghain is someone I could relate to on a human level, where as Meredith I felt was far more cartoonish of a villain, at least during the end game.

[Wereparrot]

I prefer Loghain. Loghain exhibits values that I value myself, so I've come to the conclusion that he is a good man driven out of his depth by his conviction. Meredith is obviously corrupted by the idol, and rather more so than the extent to which Loghain was out of his depth.

[Nightdragon8]

Yea but Loghain was still on his high horse about how he could take out the archdemon without knowing anything about an archdemon. So really his ignorance + Arrogance got alot of good soilders killed for pretty much nothing but his fears/ego,

Which just makes him a pitiable character. Never spared him cause never really saw a need to. IMO my warden had already rasied an army and could handle leading it as it was. So I really didn't need another general. I mean its not like thre needed to be tactics at all other than storm the gates of the city.

[Former_Fiend]

True, but you don't know that at the time. The darkspawn hitting Denerim was a surprise that caught everyone off guard.

Truth be told I spared him the first time because Simon Templemen is, in my opinion, one of if not the greatest voice actors of all time and I can't pass up the chance to have him on my squad, not to mention I found Alistair to be more than a little annoying. After talking to him, getting to know him, he became a much more sympathetic character. I like ignorance in fictional characters, everyone knowing everything spoils it. He does admit he didn't think he had much of a chance between putting down the darkspawn, the civil war, and protecting the border, he was doing the best he could with what he had and making the best of a bad situation. You learn that his reputation as a general and tactician are exaggerated he's good, but not as good as most claim he is and he knows it. He's willing to exploit that inflated reputation to intimidate his enemies, but he knows how much trouble he's in. He stays the course not because he's arrogantly assured of his victory, but because he has honest conviction that his plan is the worst possible one...except for all the others.

[cihimi]

Both of them need to get laid.

[LovelyLittleLeprechauns]

cihimi wrote...

Both of them need to get laid.

I second this

[jamesp81]

cihimi wrote...

Both of them need to get laid.

And who's going to do the deed with Meredith?  Orsino/Meredith hate sex?

To quote another poster (don't remember who) "Argh, no! I'm not listening to details about nasty old person sex."

[LobselVith8]

jamesp81 wrote...

Actually, I disagree with the OP.

I can sympathize with Loghain. His fears were not unfounded, as the Orlesians had, in the past, used a blight to help themselves to other people's lands. I don't relish killing Logain in my Origins playthroughs, but I don't see a good alternative. I refuse to deny to Alistair justice for the death of the only father figure he ever knew. However much I might sympathize with Loghain's motivations, I can't agree with his actions. The whole situation is just a great damned shame.

Meredith, on the other hand, was just a crazy **** from the first. She was a rabid dog with designs of taking on powers that weren't hers to take. Putting that **** down did the whole world a favor, and I never once even considered siding with her.

I feel the same way. Loghain saw his mother brutalized by Orlesian troops, his people lived under an Orlesian occupation for over a century, and he fought for years to see his nation free of oppression. Considering the Orleisan Wardens who sided with the Architect during "The Calling," and there's a precedent for why Loghain would be suspicious of Grey Wardens and Orlesians. Through everything, Loghain regrets his actions, and he's willing to pay for his mistakes. Loghain didn't aim to take his daughter's throne, and while some of his actions were reprehensible, he's willing to pay the ultimate price for what he did.

Meredith, on the other hand, becomes a despot, and wants to kill hundreds of people who are innocent of the actions of one rogue Grey Warden mage because... the mob will "demand blood" otherwise?

[Addai]

I'm not sure how to compare them, except to say that Loghain got character development while Meredith did not.

[Wulfram]

Meredith has more character development than an unrecruited Loghain does in DA:O. And acts more reasonably, too.

[Cody]

Wulfram wrote...

Meredith has more character development than an unrecruited Loghain does in DA:O. And acts more reasonably, too.

..your kidding right? We barely see her. We only see her for a short time at the end of Act 2 and mostly in act 3, to which she is losing her mind. With one bad incident with her sister she goes ape**** with the help of the idol. How does THAT show more development then Loghain who; was in 1 or 2 books(forget how many) and was one of the main characters in DA:O? He shows and explains why he hates the Orlesians and the way he acts toward them as if they are a bigger threat than the darkspawn to the point where it may seem he is losing his mind shows an extreme case of PTSD. Combined with the party banter and the conversations you have with him you can begin to understand why he did what he did and in someway pity him.

Meredith has more development? Thats a laugh, especially since she only gets crazier.

And yes I know you said unrecruited Loghain. But just reading the books he was in, the codex and just listening to his ramblings. Even when not recruited you can see a shell shocked man. A man who may one day find himself a corner, crawl into a little ball while muttering to himself. For that is something PTSD can do.

Modifié par CodyMelch, 04 novembre 2011 - 04:41 .

[Wulfram]

I said more development than an unrecruited Loghain has in DA:O.

All Loghian does is decide to go Mwahahahahahaaa Evil and ignore the vast hordes of monsters eating half his country because he's afraid of the Orlesians hiding under his desk.

With Meredith, at least there are Blood Mages hiding her desk.

Modifié par Wulfram, 04 novembre 2011 - 04:44 .