66 réponses à ce sujet

[ModicaSolis]

 I just beat the game this morning as a goody-goody/peacemaker DW Rogue and so for a change of pace, I'm going to go for a sarcastic/jerk Mage. However, I have never liked Blood Magic both from an RP perspective and a mechanics perspective. Using my health to cast spells really throws me off.

Is Force Mage/Spirit Healer viable? I keep seeing builds that recommend Force Mage and Blood Mage or Spirit Healer and Blood Mage but never FM/SH.

Furthermore, I can't stand Anders or Merrill. Would a party of Varric, Fenris OR Aveline, Sebastian OR Isabela, and HawkeMage work? 

[Gespenst]

I don't see why not - if you take SH/FM you have mastery over the laws of physics (well gravity anyway) and can resurect your party. If you don't want to take Anders then SH is good since you can take over the healing responsibilities.

Personally I think Force mage is a really interesting type of magic (I'd like to think that Malcolm Hawke came up with it himself (possibly to move furniture))

[SuicidalBaby]

If you have no other healing and it's only your second play-through go with SH.
If you are going to be using 3 melee, go SH.
If you are playing on nightmare and its only your second play-through go with SH.
If you are not an aggressive player, go SH.
If you are playing on any difficulty other than nightmare and want to be bored, go SH.
If you want to learn how to use a Spirit Healer via tactics while controlling another character, which will occur at some point or another, click the tactics link in my signature and read the first lesson.
If you want to understand the mechanics and have a general understanding of how Blood Magic works with hands-free companions, click the compendium link in my signature.
If you want to be able to afford all the nifty items in the game, click the Money Guide link in my signature.

If you have any questions about the subjects covered in today's lesson do so in the thread relevant to the question so others may learn from your perspective on those subjects as well.

Modifié par SuicidialBaby, 15 août 2011 - 03:39 .

[Ruben Thomas]

I don't want to be negative, but from personal experience I'd very much recommend not playing as a Spirit Healer, it's very boring.

Force Mage is really really strong, so I'd consider that a so called "must". It's also very fun, with Gravitic Ring you have a spell with which you can pretty much say to your enemy "you cannot stand there, or go there, if you do you will lose". It's also fantastic for holding chokes, and as a protective spell, if you stand within the centre of it yourself you're almost untouchable from melee attacks.

And the other Force Mage spells let you toss enemies around and squish them into the ground, to me it's fantastic.

I'm currently playing as a blood mage, I'm in act two, at my difficulty I really feel it's redundant. I never really run out of mana without blood magic, and the blood magic specific spells aren't so much better that I feel it makes an amazing difference for me.

If you go Spirit Healer and Force Mage I feel like you'll have an absolute ton of defensive, healing and positioning spells. You'll no doubt be a fantastic support mage, but personally I feel that's quite boring. That's just because I'm stereotypical and I like for Hawke to be the star of the team dishing out tremendous damage though.

In any case, I hope you have fun playing a mage, it's my favourite class by far!

[mr_afk]

Well.. it's a bit of a jerk move to gank health from companions like blood mages can do but if you don't want to use bloodmagic you definitely don't have to. With the patch changes to death syphon it is even possible to have a non-bloodmage without any points wasted on willpower.

Whether you focus on spirit healer like suicidal seems to be recommending or whether you just focus on filling out other trees the choice is yours.
My current post-patch act 3 build is specced as a FM/SH but has no points into spirit healer (just getting the slight mana boost). It utterly wipes most fights (glass crit-cannon) but probably is a little too fragile for most people.
Having the extra ability points from only using one spec allows you to reach spirit mastery and elemental mastery or whatever other tree you want faster.

The only problem is that without anders all the healing will have to come from hawke. This means that you'll either have to crowd control enemies really well (and not get damaged) or have them chug through potions. I managed fine with anders only using heal - but due to his faster cooldowns that is still better than hawke can manage (also, having to pay attention to ally hp levels all the time sucks). Also, you'll be suffering the absence of dual haste.

Maybe try having anders with you for a little bit for dual hastes and see if your opinion of him changes.. But otherwise a party of one warrior, two rogues and hawke mage can work reasonably well. You'll have to focus on disorient CCCs such as fatiguing fog/pinning shot/confusion + scatter/assault/walking bomb/spirit bolt/stone fist, brittle CCCs (archer's lance) and maybe either getting isabela to use spike damage on staggered enemies (lacerate) or chain lightning/crushing prisoning them.

I'm sure you'll figure something out

Modifié par mr_afk, 14 août 2011 - 06:25 .

[Aradace]

Blood Magic in origins = pure win
Blood Magic in DA2 = A watered down substitute.

[SuicidalBaby]

Blood Magic in origins was watered down and did not work properly.
Blood Control does not work properly in Origins.
Sacrifice didn't take enough health from the companion to matter, ever.
Hemorrhage was ridiculously overpowered for 1 ability point.
Blood Magic in Origins turned off after every encounter.

Blood Magic in Origins was 3 points, a dumbed down version of what it should have been.

Blood Magic in DA2 is dynamic, open to options, play-style and even role-play.
If you don't want to drain your companions to maintain it, you don't have to.
Blood Magic does not deactivate after every fight.
You get to choose the exact level of conversion.
Blood Slave(Control) actually works.
Blood Sacrifice carries a significant counterweight % that actually impacts the companion used.
Hemorrhage is balanced.
Grave Robber is an excellent spell that allows for a separate role-play path of the specialization.
The Blood Magic item stat change has brought overall conversion rates inline with original Origins percentages.

DA2's Blood Magic is miles ahead of Origins, in every facet, as it should be.
Origins' Blood Magic is the watered down, broken, simplified version of this ability.

You don't want to have this conversation.  Trust me. 

Modifié par SuicidialBaby, 14 août 2011 - 05:45 .

[Leo Church 13]

Blood magic is definitely not a requirement to beat the game. On xbox, I find that with the control spell not working correctly BM is a waste. Perhaps the latets patch has fixed this, but I can't open a menu without crashes so I may never find out. Be that as it may, I have used a FM/SH combo on Nightmare/Hard with success. Pull, slow, nuke works without BM. And if your party is getting beat up switching to the healing aura and using group heal is nice. Also, resurrecting your party when you're the only person left alive (with no injuries and a heal) will help avoid wipes. Then you can go back to nuking.

[SuicidalBaby]

DA2 slave always worked. It just works cleaner after the fix.

[GoodFella146]

SuicidialBaby wrote...

Blood Magic in origins was watered down and did not work properly.
Blood Control does not work properly in Origins.
Sacrifice didn't take enough health from the companion to matter, ever.
Hemorrhage was ridiculously overpowered for 1 ability point.
Blood Magic in Origins turned off after every encounter.

Blood Magic in Origins was 3 points, a dumbed down version of what it should have been.

Blood Magic in DA2 is dynamic, open to options, play-style and even role-play.
If you don't want to drain your companions to maintain it, you don't have to.
Blood Magic does not deactivate after every fight.
You get to choose the exact level of conversion.
Blood Slave(Control) actually works.
Blood Sacrifice carries a significant counterweight % that actually impacts the companion used.
Hemorrhage is balanced.
Grave Robber is an excellent spell that allows for a separate role-play path of the specialization.
The Blood Magic item stat change has brought overall conversion rates inline with original Origins percentages.

DA2's Blood Magic is miles ahead of Origins, in every facet, as it should be.
Origins' Blood Magic is the watered down, broken, simplified version of this ability.

You don't want to have this conversation.  Trust me. 

yet i liked blood magic in origins much better.........

[Sabotin]

Well it's your prerogative to think so, but I agree with Baby; I don't see any benefits of the DA:O version over the DA2 one. Mostly it amounted to turn blood magic on -> blood wound -> move to next encounter .

[AreleX]

Sabotin wrote...

Well it's your prerogative to think so, but I agree with Baby; I don't see any benefits of the DA:O version over the DA2 one. Mostly it amounted to turn blood magic on -> blood wound -> move to next encounter .

what it has and always will likely come down to for basically all of the da2 mage bawww is that they aren't broken monsters of doom with multiple stupid buttons to trivialize every encounter any more

i prefer da2 mage because while it is still powerful, you can't simply turn your brain off and ruin everything's ****

[Aradace]

SuicidialBaby wrote...

Blood Magic in origins was watered down and did not work properly.
Blood Control does not work properly in Origins.
Sacrifice didn't take enough health from the companion to matter, ever.
Hemorrhage was ridiculously overpowered for 1 ability point.
Blood Magic in Origins turned off after every encounter.

Blood Magic in Origins was 3 points, a dumbed down version of what it should have been.

Blood Magic in DA2 is dynamic, open to options, play-style and even role-play.
If you don't want to drain your companions to maintain it, you don't have to.
Blood Magic does not deactivate after every fight.
You get to choose the exact level of conversion.
Blood Slave(Control) actually works.
Blood Sacrifice carries a significant counterweight % that actually impacts the companion used.
Hemorrhage is balanced.
Grave Robber is an excellent spell that allows for a separate role-play path of the specialization.
The Blood Magic item stat change has brought overall conversion rates inline with original Origins percentages.

DA2's Blood Magic is miles ahead of Origins, in every facet, as it should be.
Origins' Blood Magic is the watered down, broken, simplified version of this ability.

You don't want to have this conversation.  Trust me. 

If you say so, just stating my opinion.  IMO the only thing BM is good for in DA2 is One Foot In.  And even then, it's not that great IMO.  I'd far rather take SH and FM and specialize in Elemental.  Elemental owns BM in every regard.  (Dont know about nightmare because since theres no trophy for it, I have no motivation to play on that setting) I play on Normal mostly and sometimes Hardcore.  And even on Hardcore, Elemental still out damages Blood Magic.

[Aradace]

AreleX wrote...



i prefer da2 mage because while it is still powerful, you can't simply turn your brain off and ruin everything's ****

You're entitled to think so, just like anyone else but overkill is under rated IMO 

[andraip]

@aradace

First you don't have friendly fire in normal and hard, only in nightmare (and with the weird damage vs health relation of your party you can easely wipe yourself out). Elemental has friendly fire, Bloodmagic doesn't. As for Elemental beeing superior, well, people use Elemental + Force + Bloodmagic... check up AreleX Elemental Force/Blood Mage - Nuclear Warfare (Dragon Age 2 Nightmare Guide), since you will have more then 10 skill points you can actually have more then one tree...

[Aradace]

andraip wrote...

@aradace

First you don't have friendly fire in normal and hard, only in nightmare (and with the weird damage vs health relation of your party you can easely wipe yourself out). Elemental has friendly fire, Bloodmagic doesn't. As for Elemental beeing superior, well, people use Elemental + Force + Bloodmagic... check up AreleX Elemental Force/Blood Mage - Nuclear Warfare (Dragon Age 2 Nightmare Guide), since you will have more then 10 skill points you can actually have more then one tree...

I'd much rather spend those points that could go into BM on SH for the +10 Con passive.  Secondly, I only purchase FM for the passive you get for purchasing it in the first place so no points even go into it.  So I focus primarily on Elemental and Primal at that point once I have the SH passive I want.  As for FF, yea, I know its only on Nightmare and is essentially part of the reason why I'll never play on nightmare.  So trying to preach FF to me, is pointless.  My point Im trying to get across is that A.) Believe it or not, not EVERYONE plays on nightmare.  Some of us play on Hardcore and Normal.  And B.) NO, Blood Magic is NOT essential but a luxury.  I can bet you that I can use just about any other build on a Mage that DOESNT use BM and still get through nightmare just as easily (If not easier) than with a BM build.  

This isnt an MMO where folks that dont build their character ONE specific way that they are considered "noobs".  And if you do think that way, well, then Im sorry you feel that way because it's an ignorant and misguided way of thinking.  It's your opinion none the less and as such, you're entitled to it.  When something is essential, it basically means that you cant do/live without it.  Meaning, is BM possibly (depending on your view) nice to have?  Sure, I guess if you like it.  But is it "essential" on ANY difficulty?  Definately not.

[thendcomes]

SB's response is really /thread. In those situations, SH will be better, and any other situations BM will be better. But both are viable, especially in Normal/Hard.
@aradace
It's understood they can play however they want. The guy wants advice, not your arbitrary opinion. 

[Aradace]

thendcomes wrote...

SB's response is really /thread. In those situations, SH will be better, and any other situations BM will be better. But both are viable, especially in Normal/Hard.
@aradace
It's understood they can play however they want. The guy wants advice, not your arbitrary opinion. 

Actually, the title implies more than that.  Asking whether BM is "essential" and the answer to that is no.

[SuicidalBaby]

Origins is watered down in the sense of simplification.
It's overpowered, that is not a recipe for success unless you want to make an arcade game or turn the game into a movie you move around in a little. Which is exactly what Origins becomes once you hit 14 with 5 tomes in your bag and Wynne at your back. I can automate 3 Origins Blood Mages in less time than it takes to get Isabela in the sack. That is not a good thing. Even on Nightmare, Origins becomes a joke once you get Blood Wound.

[Aradace]

SuicidialBaby wrote...

 Origins becomes a joke once you get Blood Wound.

Origins is a joke to begin with in terms of difficulty even on Nightmare and without Blood Wound

Modifié par Aradace, 15 août 2011 - 03:41 .

[SuicidalBaby]

Aradace wrote...

thendcomes wrote...

SB's response is really /thread. In those situations, SH will be better, and any other situations BM will be better. But both are viable, especially in Normal/Hard.
@aradace
It's understood they can play however they want. The guy wants advice, not your arbitrary opinion. 

Actually, the title implies more than that.  Asking whether BM is "essential" and the answer to that is no.

But that isn't what you said.  You compared DA2 to DA:O, which is not what the OP asked for, and what I was speaking to directly.  And now, you're applying several contexts to what is basically an Overpowered vs Practical Balance conversation while defending it with comments that actually are on topic for the original conversation at hand.  This is confusing your points.

Of course other builds are viable.  But if you're gonna have a conversation, try to keep your points to the subjects you are talking about.  You wanna talk about opinions of Origins vs 2, we can do that.  But don't roll that into a conversation about what is viable for DA2, it derails what you were attempting to get across to the OP and confuses the overall message of the thread. 

Modifié par SuicidialBaby, 15 août 2011 - 03:52 .

[SuicidalBaby]

Aradace wrote...

SuicidialBaby wrote...

 Origins becomes a joke once you get Blood Wound.

Origins is a joke to begin with in terms of difficulty even on Nightmare and without Blood Wound

So why even compare them in the first place.  Are you trying to come off as a troll?  I know this isn't true, but you can easily be seen as such at this moment.  Your later post is on the mark as far as Elemental/FH/SH.  Probably what you should have posted first.  Directing it at the OP, rather than using it in a defensive posture.

[Aradace]

SuicidialBaby wrote...

Aradace wrote...

thendcomes wrote...

SB's response is really /thread. In those situations, SH will be better, and any other situations BM will be better. But both are viable, especially in Normal/Hard.
@aradace
It's understood they can play however they want. The guy wants advice, not your arbitrary opinion. 

Actually, the title implies more than that.  Asking whether BM is "essential" and the answer to that is no.

But that isn't what you said.  You compared DA2 to DA:O, which is not what the OP asked for, and what I was speaking to directly.  You're appling several contexts to what is basiclly an Overpowered vs Practical Balance conversation.

Of course other builds are viable.  But if you're gonna have a conversation, try to keep your points to the subjects you are talking about.  You wanna talk about opinions of Origins vs 2, we can do that.  But don't roll that into a conversation about what is viable for DA2, it derails what you were attempting to get across to the OP and confuses the overall message of the thread. 

Whatever you want to think sure, no problem.  To that point,  I simply skipped by the reply on how alot of folks think BM in Origins was Overpowered because that is an opinion I dont share with the masses and therefore moot because nothing I say on the matter will convince you or anyone otherwise so why bother arguing or debating your point further than your opinion on which is broken and which isnt?  In my opinion, as Ive said in another post, Overkill is under-rated.  I thought perhaps that point was clear when I just said that Origins was a joke in terms of difficulty to begin with but apparently it wasnt clear enough so, fair enough on that, let me make it perfectly clear then.  Complaining how something is overpowered in anything other than an MMO is trivial IMO.  You obviously dont think so because you think BM in Origins is "broken".  However, I think you were right in your original reply to my post in regards to not wanting to have this discussion.  Because no matter what you say, Im not going to agree with you about it being overpowered.  And you're not going to agree with my view on it.  So I'll just agree to disagree with you and leave it at that.

[mr_afk]

pre-patch, death syphon wasn't very effective at mana regen. improved blood magic ratios were also a lot easier to obtain. this meant that bloodmagic effectively sidestepped mana-issues as well as enabling unrestricted amounts of sustains.
additionally, haemorrhage was the highest damage CCC in the game and staggers were easy to obtain with cleave. basically, bloodmage was the best tree with the slight exception of maybe forcemage (if you like crowd control and/or been unshakeable).
So I would say that pre-patch blood magic was almost necessary to create an effective build but still not essential.


The post-patch bloodmage has been nerfed considerably making other non-bloodmage builds more competitive. Even still bloodmages are very effective as they can achieve levels of durability that most mages can't afford to have (e.g. points spent (not wasted) on con and sustains which consume otherwise precious mana).

However, with death syphon working nicely it's possible to run on mana without pumping any willpower.

I would also like to reinforce the idea that a filling a second spec isn't necessary. Spirit Healer is a pretty useless tree if you have a working party setup- nobody dies or even gets injured if enemies are all crowd controlled and killed. A crit-forcemage/spirit healer (using only the spec bonus) can be very viable in terms of dps builds.
However, in the OP's case, not having anders may favour filling the SH spec as a failsafe.

Modifié par mr_afk, 15 août 2011 - 04:12 .

[andraip]

Aradace wrote...

I'd much rather spend those points that could go into BM on SH for the +10 Con passive.  Secondly, I only purchase FM for the passive you get for purchasing it in the first place so no points even go into it.  So I focus primarily on Elemental and Primal at that point once I have the SH passive I want.  As for FF, yea, I know its only on Nightmare and is essentially part of the reason why I'll never play on nightmare.  So trying to preach FF to me, is pointless.  My point Im trying to get across is that A.) Believe it or not, not EVERYONE plays on nightmare.  Some of us play on Hardcore and Normal.  And B.) NO, Blood Magic is NOT essential but a luxury.  I can bet you that I can use just about any other build on a Mage that DOESNT use BM and still get through nightmare just as easily (If not easier) than with a BM build.  

This isnt an MMO where folks that dont build their character ONE specific way that they are considered "noobs".  And if you do think that way, well, then Im sorry you feel that way because it's an ignorant and misguided way of thinking.  It's your opinion none the less and as such, you're entitled to it.  When something is essential, it basically means that you cant do/live without it.  Meaning, is BM possibly (depending on your view) nice to have?  Sure, I guess if you like it.  But is it "essential" on ANY difficulty?  Definately not.

If you rather spend your points elsewhere I'm fine with it, however this thread is not about how you prefer to put your points, it's about if FM + SH is viable (and it is). You said that BM is useless since elemental is better, which is not true, bloodmagic has it's uses.
I never said that BM is essencial for all mage builds, I just said that it is indeed a very usefull and powerfull tree.

I know that not everyone plays at nightmare (such a shame, really), I only said that the BM AoE spells don't deal FF, elemental AoE spell do. So BM becomes more effective in nightmare if you playing with one or more melee who don't have high fire res.

I know that DA2 isn't a MMO and I never suggested that I thought that you are a noob, actually I like to try out different builds that mostly aren't as effective as others but I have fun playing them and that's the main reason I play games, to have fun. Anyway, I played through DA:O with my mage on Nightmare without beeing an AW or resorting to Blood Wound, and I didn't used Mana Clash either, since it feels like cheating (for me), so I'm glad to have balanced classes and trees in DA2, and actually there are other people too who like balanced gameplay in not MMO rpg's.