66 réponses à ce sujet

[SuicidalBaby]

Stop discussing this with him. he is by definition a troll, intentionally or otherwise.  You will get no where.

Stick to the OP and his needs.

Modifié par SuicidialBaby, 15 août 2011 - 05:10 .

[devilspep]

Blood magic is fun to play for role playing purposes. For practicality purposes it definately isn't a necessity. I played as a Spirit Healer/Blood Mage. Spirit Healer will keep you in a battle and turn a losing battle into a victory. Blood Magic will just spice up a fight. It never really gets dull seeing an enemy fight their allies after becoming a blood slave. And Hemmorage is great at stunning groups of enemies.

Modifié par devilspep, 15 août 2011 - 05:09 .

[Ruben Thomas]

My biggest gripe with Blood Magic is that its strongest spell Hemorrhage animation locks you for a freakin' eternity. Hawke just stands still immovable stabbing himself in the stomach for 4-5 seconds. The spell itself goes off almost instantly, but the animation lasts for ages afterwards.

Before the Blood Magic nerf, I could see it being a justifiable side effect, because Hemorrhage was even stronger back then too. However with the current patch, Hemorrhage isn't as good, and in the time it takes to cast Hemorrhage and waiting for the animation to finish I could have hotkey cast two other spells and depending on the spells even done an auto attack or two.

In addition to that, animation locking leaves you incredibly vulnerable, because you can't move out of the way of things. Which is incidentally also my biggest gripe with the Mage class overall, how the fourth auto attack motion animation locks you in place.

Modifié par Ruben Thomas, 15 août 2011 - 05:59 .

[Aradace]

Ruben Thomas wrote...

My biggest gripe with Blood Magic is that it's strongest spell Hemorrhage animation locks you for a freakin' eternity. Hawke just stands still immovable stabbing himself in the stomach for 4-5 seconds. The spell itself goes off almost instantly, but the animation lasts for ages afterwards.

Before the Blood Magic nerf, I could see it being a justifiable side effect, because Hemorrhage was even stronger back then too. However with the current patch, Hemorrhage isn't as good, and in the time it takes to cast Hemorrhage and waiting for the animation to finish I could have hotkey cast two other spells and depending on the spells even done an auto attack or two.

In addition to that, animation locking leaves you incredibly woulnerable, because you can't move out of the way of things. Which is incidentally also my biggest gripe with the Mage class overall, how the fourth auto attack motion animation locks you in place.

Also part of my complaint with Blood Magic as a whole.  Not to mention that there is not a single ability in the BM tree that can do something another ability in another tree can't do "equally or better".  

Hemmorage:  Chance of stun/paralyze and does damage to a mutlitude of mobs.  The effect of note here is the immobilization of a group.  I can easily cover that with a well placed Glyph of Paralysis, for example.  From there it's a matter of taking them down as usual.

One Foot In/Grave Robber:  Now adimittedly, this one is pretty nice after the patch.  However, a well placed fireball, chain lightning, or cone of cold for example will still accomplish the local AoE much better.  Aside from the leech effect, this ability also has no exclusivity.

Blood Slave/Blood Spatter:  Right off the top of my head, Walking Virulent Bomb can accomplish practically the same effect as Blood Spatter but with 25% less damage.  Which can again, be countered by making sure it is an elite or higher mob you use this on.  With that in mind, this skill also lacks "exclusivity" beyond giving you a "temporary pet".

Sacrafice:  This one's easy.  Simply pop a potion or a heal spell and you not only get the same, but in most cases a better result.  Given you cant do that with BM active but still, I think my point is clear on that one.

Beyond RP purposes, BM loses a little bit of its "effectiveness" when held next to some other abilities.  And since FF is only turned on in Nightmare Mode, then the fact that Hemmorage has no FF is a minor (albiet important to some) point.

Modifié par Aradace, 15 août 2011 - 06:05 .

[SuicidalBaby]

Are you omitting the inherent values and additional key, even base, mechanics to those abilities out of ignorance or because they would kill your argument?

[Aradace]

SuicidialBaby wrote...

Are you omitting the inherent values and additional key, even base, mechanics to those abilities out of ignorance or because they would kill your argument?

Ok, I'll bite.  Give me something ANY ability in the BM tree can do and I can almost guarantee you I can counter with another ability in another tree that can do just as well.  If you're trying to use the flimsy "Crowd Control" aspect of it, I can again, refer you to other abilities that do that job just as well.  Because Glyph of Paralysis and Coma kill any "Crowd Control" arguement you may have.

Modifié par Aradace, 15 août 2011 - 07:18 .

[AreleX]

Aradace wrote...

Also part of my complaint with Blood Magic as a whole.  Not to mention that there is not a single ability in the BM tree that can do something another ability in another tree can't do "equally or better".  

Hemmorage:  Chance of stun/paralyze and does damage to a mutlitude of mobs.  The effect of note here is the immobilization of a group.  I can easily cover that with a well placed Glyph of Paralysis, for example.  From there it's a matter of taking them down as usual.

One Foot In/Grave Robber:  Now adimittedly, this one is pretty nice after the patch.  However, a well placed fireball, chain lightning, or cone of cold for example will still accomplish the local AoE much better.  Aside from the leech effect, this ability also has no exclusivity.

Blood Slave/Blood Spatter:  Right off the top of my head, Walking Virulent Bomb can accomplish practically the same effect as Blood Spatter but with 25% less damage.  Which can again, be countered by making sure it is an elite or higher mob you use this on.  With that in mind, this skill also lacks "exclusivity" beyond giving you a "temporary pet".

Sacrafice:  This one's easy.  Simply pop a potion or a heal spell and you not only get the same, but in most cases a better result.  Given you cant do that with BM active but still, I think my point is clear on that one.

Beyond RP purposes, BM loses a little bit of its "effectiveness" when held next to some other abilities.  And since FF is only turned on in Nightmare Mode, then the fact that Hemmorage has no FF is a minor (albiet important to some) point.

1. blood slave has a built-in taunt function, redirecting threat to the enslaved target. upgraded blood slave explodes for 75% of the victim's max health WITHOUT the need for a CCC, walking bomb only explodes for 50% without. the explosion is also guaranteed. you could stand there sucking your thumb after you cast it, and the enemy will still explode. again, same cannot be said for walking bomb.

2. hemorrhage deals huge damage off a stagger. since its damage is spread out over two hits, this allows it to IGNORE the lieutenant/boss 40%/20% damage cap. no other mage ability can do this.

3. If you're using upgraded grave robber for damage, you are doing it wrong. it's for the aoe life steal, it is not a damage ability. no other mage ability can do this.

4. if you were playing spirit healer, and you wanted to use an offensive spell, you would have to deactivate the sustain, and wait for the cooldown to use it again. if you were playing a blood mage, and you wanted to use conventional means of healing, you would have to deactivate the sustain, and wait for the cooldown to use it again. blood magic casts from your health pool and has TWO self-healing abilities (grave robber/one foot in and sacrifice/grim sacrifice), allowing you to keep it up near indefinitely. blood mages get to have their cake and eat it too, spirit healer does not. that's more than enough justification for sacrifice.

if you don't like da2 blood mage, that's fine, i have no problem with that. to say that it isn't good, and doesn't have unique properties in its ability set, is 100% false.

[AreleX]

to answer the OP's question:

is it ESSENTIAL? no

is it VERY GOOD? yes

[thendcomes]

Aradace wrote...
Ok, I'll bite.  Give me something ANY ability in the BM tree can do and I can almost guarantee you I can counter with another ability in another tree that can do just as well. 

Use HP as a resource.

Seriously my head hurts. It's hard to combat your point(s) since you're jumping from one to the next sometimes mid-paragraph or mid-sentence.. So let's nail down the "I complain about Blood Magic because there are other spells in other trees that do similar things".

Ignoring your strangely picked spell comparisons, just because there are spells in other trees that do similar things doesn't mean anything. All those spells you mentioned cost talent points, and to get them to substitute all the BM spells would take more points than you needed to invest in BM. Additionally, those spells have cooldowns. You can't cast Glyph of Paralysis or Walking Bomb over and over again, so there's plenty of utility in having 2 or more spells that accomplish the same thing. You say "why get Sacrifice when I can just use a health potion?" Because they don't share a cooldown. All pretty obvious.

[Aradace]

thendcomes wrote...

Aradace wrote...
Ok, I'll bite.  Give me something ANY ability in the BM tree can do and I can almost guarantee you I can counter with another ability in another tree that can do just as well. 

Use HP as a resource.

Seriously my head hurts. It's hard to combat your point(s) since you're jumping from one to the next sometimes mid-paragraph or mid-sentence.. So let's nail down the "I complain about Blood Magic because there are other spells in other trees that do similar things".

Ignoring your strangely picked spell comparisons, just because there are spells in other trees that do similar things doesn't mean anything. All those spells you mentioned cost talent points, and to get them to substitute all the BM spells would take more points than you needed to invest in BM. Additionally, those spells have cooldowns. You can't cast Glyph of Paralysis or Walking Bomb over and over again, so there's plenty of utility in having 2 or more spells that accomplish the same thing. You say "why get Sacrifice when I can just use a health potion?" Because they don't share a cooldown. All pretty obvious.

1.) uses HP as a resource - Ummm ok, a fair point but again, minor in the grand scheme of things.  At least IMO.
2.) Regardless of how many points it costs, my original point still stands that there are, in fact, other spells and talents that do nearly the exact same thing as BM.
3.) Cooldowns should be irrelevant.  Why? Because if you are so inept that you need THAT much CC in one encounter.  Then again, IMO, you're doing something very very wrong.  
4.) Last time I checked, Heal and Potions DONT share a cooldown.  Again, if you are so inept that you need both Heal AND a pot before the other has cooled down, you are doing something very very wrong..

[thendcomes]

Trolled :-(  

I don't even think it's on purpose. You're just that bad at arguing.

Modifié par thendcomes, 15 août 2011 - 10:24 .

[Aradace]

thendcomes wrote...

Trolled :-(  

I don't even think it's on purpose. You're just that bad at arguing.

I disagree but *shrugs* whatever.  As I said before we'll just agree to disagree.  I've given examples to disprove your theories and yet you think Im trolling.  Whatever you want to think at this point bro.  Im bad at arguing? No, you're just bad at understanding. End of Discussion.

Modifié par Aradace, 15 août 2011 - 10:44 .

[SuicidalBaby]

You realize you're talking from the perspective of never having played nightmare rather than just the purity of the abilities matched vs the comparable non-specialization tree.

Lets truly compare 1 ability to the other:

Blood Slave vs Virulent Walking Bomb.
2 ability points vs 3 ability points
Guaranteed detonation vs Requires direct attention until detonation
Removes enemy from hostile targets vs Spreads infection to any surviving targets after detonation(ff)
Taunts all other enemies in the area vs nothing

Hemorrhage vs Glyph of Paralysis
2 ability points vs 2 ability points
Damage + Paralysis vs Paralysis
CCC multipler vs nothing

Blood Magic Spell Casting vs Standard Mana Spell Casting
1-2 ability points and standard casting ability vs standard spell casting
Control group spells:
Standard spell cast cycle spells:
Glyph of Paralysis - 25 mana
Virulent Walking Bomb - 30 mana
Tempest - 50 mana
Firestorm - 60 mana
Winter's Grasp - 20 mana
Cone of Cold - 30 mana

Only Blood Magic conversion, no Blood Lust or items:
2:1 Health to Mana Ratio = 18 hp average per cast
Glyph of Paralysis - 25 mana - 13 health
Virulent Walking Bomb - 30 mana - 15 health
Tempest - 50 mana - 25 Health
Firestorm - 60 mana - 30 Health
Winter's Grasp - 20 mana - 10 Health
Cone of Cold - 30 mana - 15 Health
215 mana vs 108 hp

Only Ability conversion, no items:
3:1 Health to Mana Ratio = 12.17 hp average per cast
Glyph of Paralysis - 25 mana - 9 health
Virulent Walking Bomb - 30 mana - 10 health
Tempest - 50 mana - 17 Health
Firestorm - 60 mana - 20 Health
Winter's Grasp - 20 mana - 7 Health
Cone of Cold - 30 mana - 10 Health
215 mana vs 73 health

4 piece conversion items:
4:1 Health to Mana Ratio = 9.33 hp average per cast
Glyph of Paralysis - 25 mana - 7 health
Virulent Walking Bomb - 30 mana - 8 health
Tempest - 50 mana - 13 health
Firestorm - 60 mana - 15 health
Winter's Grasp - 20 mana - 5 health
Cone of Cold - 30 mana - 8 health
215 mana vs 56 health

6 piece conversion items:
4.5:1 = 8.5 health average per cast
Glyph of Paralysis - 25 mana - 6 health
Virulent Walking Bomb - 30 mana - 7 health
Tempest - 50 mana - 12 health
Firestorm - 60 mana - 14 health
Winter's Grasp - 20 mana - 5 health
Cone of Cold - 30 mana - 7 health
215 mana vs 51 health

8 piece conversion
5:1 = 7.17 health average per cast
Glyph of Paralysis - 25 mana - 5 health
Virulent Walking Bomb - 30 mana - 6 health
Tempest - 50 mana - 10 health
Firestorm - 60 mana - 12 health
Winter's Grasp - 20 mana - 4 health
Cone of Cold - 30 mana - 6 health
215 mana vs 43 health

This concise reduction in total energy spent equates to a larger percentage of attributes available to be allocated towards increasing overall damage and effectiveness of abilities, while reducing the total number of spells necessary to cast during any given encounter.

-----------------------------

And now back to what actually matters. You do not play on nightmare. Anything under that difficulty is infinitely less of a dynamic hindrance to a multitude of builds and processes. One can not define any one particular build as less capable than another because all builds provide the abilities with which anyone can finish the game.

Is Blood Magic essential? No. This game can be defeated in near infinite manner of ways.

Is Blood Magic, in comparison to standard non-specialization abilities, weaker than or equivalent to its mechanical counterpart? No. It surpasses them in all facets, including ability point cost and overall energy efficiency.

What is the value of an opinion in comparison to those against it, if that opinion is based on the lack of complete data or information on the subject at hand?
                

Modifié par SuicidialBaby, 16 août 2011 - 03:45 .

[SuicidalBaby]

Aradace wrote...

thendcomes wrote...

Trolled :-(  

I don't even think it's on purpose. You're just that bad at arguing.

I disagree but *shrugs* whatever.  As I said before we'll just agree to disagree.  I've given examples to disprove your theories and yet you think Im trolling.  Whatever you want to think at this point bro.  Im bad at arguing? No, you're just bad at understanding. End of Discussion.

Don't go douchey on us because you lack a complete argument.  You backed up lame opinions with halfassed proof.  Your examples lack the full understanding of all mechanics involved and yet you attack him for questioning your reasoning for continuing this.  Your ignorance makes you the troll because you continue to press the issue with pathetic understandings of the subjects you are discussing.  If you want to be taken seriously, be serious and invest some time to undersand what it is you are discussing.  Maybe then your arguements will be based on facts and not opinions.

Btw, the thing that everyone is damn sure of is that you dont know what you are talking about.  And that is a problem when it impacts how someone might spend the next 30 or so hours of their free time based on the ignorant, short-sighted opinions of someone who can't take constructive conversation anywhere except to the extremes.  There is a reason you are the one fighting the tide.  It is not that you are right or wrong, it is because you just do not know.

Anyone else want a piece of this fish before I throw it out?

Modifié par SuicidialBaby, 16 août 2011 - 12:54 .

[AreleX]

[mr_afk]

interestingly, a non-bloodmage with death syphon could say that mana concerns are non-issue. it's a lot easier to recover mana than recover health with the bloodmagic sustain on. Death syphon gives a constant +10% mana from each dead body (and some healing) as well as allowing its regen to be boosted by rally or to be topped up via mana potions- whereas bloodmagic restricts healing to two abilities (no potions).

additionally, using mana instead of hp is a lot safer as it allows emergency heals/potions and removes the need for a blood tank/nearby enemies. this is of particular significance in glass party setups where none of the party members appreciate the health loss.
e.g. If you're running in a glass cannon party with anders, varric (even less hp) and merrill (is likely to kill herself via casting as it is) you can't really afford to suck any hp from your companions- or you'll have to patch them up afterwards wasting valuable time you could be killing things. Even with a dps aveline (no con) stealing health from her could be risky due to all the attention the enemies will be giving her.

Bloodmages with low amounts of con (e.g. bloodmage glass cannoning) will be restricted by the number of spells they can cast in bloodmagic. Assuming ~+3-6 con or so from gear, a mage without con pumped will have ~140hp. In this case, the ~50-70 hp spent in a casting cycle will leave the mage at a very vulnerable position and needing to heal.
If you're not going to sacrifice your companions, this means that you'll either have to drop out of bloodmagic or try to one-foot-in a group of enemies; a risky maneuver when you consider that it involves running up to a group of enemies (unless they're of the dead variety, which is a bit of wasted damage in that case). And anyway, in general having hp less than 100 isn't ideal if you don't want to be ended by the stray arrow so pumping con is an unfortunate necessity.

On the other hand, running on mana allows you to leave con alone and remain relatively safe. ~140hp is a lot if you know what you're doing. And death syphon is all you need in terms of mana- ~185mana is all you need for a base pool when it gets recharged all the time.

so overall, in terms of glass cannon setups a non-bloodmage will actually be superior. bloodmages have pump some con in order to not be suicidal whereas non-bloodmages can happily hit the 100 magic mark and move on to bigger and better things (e.g. crit-builds).


This of course avoids the idea of abilities. blood mage abilities are very useful - I mean, a second walking bomb? how can that go wrong?! and even after the nerf haemorrhage CCCs are pretty amazing.

But I think that having another tree maxed can make up for it. For example, it's possible to get spirit mastery, elemental mastery and get all the useful points you want from force mage and creation. With a second spec you'll have to sacrifice something somewhere, which may or may not be better or worse.

So I think that both bloodmages and post-patch non-bloodmages can make absolutely face-wipe builds, but in terms of pure damage a non-bloodmage has greater potential.
I also think that aradace doens't know what he/she is talking about.

3.) Cooldowns should be irrelevant. Why? Because if you are so inept that you need THAT much CC in one encounter. Then again, IMO, you're doing something very very wrong.

Firstly, you can never get enough CC. Until you can beat every encounter without getting any damage, CC of any sort is great.
However, bloodmage abilities aren't about CC. They're mostly about damage. You don't cast haemorrhage because you want to crowd control that group of enemies. You cast it because you want them dead.

And to put things simply- you want to deal damage; spells deal greater damage; spells have cooldowns; during cooldowns you can use other spells; using different spells during cooldowns allows you to deal more damage faster; more damage faster equals enemies dead, which is what you want. This means that cooldowns are relevant and having a greater variety of spells allows you to be more flexible in your response to situations and to deal more damage.

(Also, talking about people been inept from a perspective of hard difficulty is kinda funny.)

[mr_afk]

The best example of where a variety of spells comes in handy is in destealthing assassins/rage demons.

If you mistime it, there's more than one, or they promptly dive straight back in stealth you have the situation where you have your destealthing spell on cooldown and something scary lurking around been invisible.

Having multiple abilities - e.g. fotm, telekinetic burst, pull of the abyss, cone of cold, mindblast, fireball or even chain lightning and the larger aoes, you can safely knock them out of stealth again and again. Even though they all do similar things (e.g. mindblast and telekinetic burst) having both can be useful.

Modifié par mr_afk, 16 août 2011 - 01:56 .

[SuicidalBaby]

His comparisons were faulty because of the application of his perspective, which was based on the difficulty he plays on, was being applied to them rather than letting the abilities speak for themselves.

His ineptitude came from the lackluster points he was making regarding the limitations of each ability and the resulting value of such when compared to their "counterparts".

Totally separate issues colliding in the perfect storm of Trollnado.

Modifié par SuicidialBaby, 16 août 2011 - 02:35 .

[SuicidalBaby]

Btw, afk, fyi, There are suggested minimal Con levels for stable, safe, spell casting while in blood magic which address the issues you brought up. 13 points over 27 levels is well within acceptable levels of allocation.

Modifié par SuicidialBaby, 16 août 2011 - 02:30 .

[mr_afk]

b-b-but that's 13 points that could have gone into magic or dex!!

hahaha yeah I know what you mean. The differences I speak of are very minimal but all i'm really saying is that blood magic is definitely not essential as I mentioned earlier in the thread.
Just thought I should reinforce that point after that rather one-sided debate made blood magic sound absolutely amazing (which it sorta is I guess).

On that note though, I managed to get a bloodmage to run on next to zero con prepatch and postpatch; but since switching to death syphon I've been finding such glass cannoning a lot easier (though with less 'lols' from killing myself via spellcasting. hahaha)

Modifié par mr_afk, 16 août 2011 - 02:45 .

[SuicidalBaby]

well, that's only 65 hp, if that can be added via items and what not, you don't need to add that much con. I would still suggest at least half that in actual abilities points.

[ripstrawberry]

"1. blood slave has a built-in taunt function, redirecting threat to the enslaved target. upgraded blood slave explodes for 75% of the victim's max health WITHOUT the need for a CCC, walking bomb only explodes for 50% without. the explosion is also guaranteed. you could stand there sucking your thumb after you cast it, and the enemy will still explode. again, same cannot be said for walking bomb."

I'd just like to add from a level 50 perspective (if anybody else besides me likes playing level 50 nightmare), blood slave doesn't explode anything at this level. They just turn on you after a set amount of time based on magic resisitance. Yes i've tried on the lowest hp grunt. No explosions. Yes it's upgraded. I think this is where the line "unless it's particularly powerful" comes into play.

@mr AFK- I'm considering trying out your death syphon setup. I've aalways done FM/BM on my mage builds because I like sustains. Assuming I'll need to have at least heroic aura and death syphon, how much mana do you think I'll need? Do you think I can fit in elemental weapons, rock armor or arcane shield? I think 40% mana sustained really cuts down on my casting power.

[SuicidalBaby]

blood slave:
It may be an issue with enemies getting stronger the higher level you are. I wonder what the break point is.

leave heroic for anders.  he works fine at 45% consumed.

Modifié par SuicidialBaby, 16 août 2011 - 06:57 .

[mr_afk]

Yeah. I think your problem will be solo (level 50) play?

I normally just hold death syphon and heroic aura on hawke. If you're not doing solo then dumping all the sustains on merrill could work. Vengeance makes Anders not that ideal for holding sustains- I don't pump any willpower for him so he has even less mana than hawke. Rock armour and arcane shield are unnecessary in a party setup where enemies are crowd controlled and killed before they can deal any damage.

When I take aveline instead of merrill I usually just skip elemental weapons. It does add a reasonable amount of damage though so perhaps I could dump it on anders.

As for how much mana you need, it'll depend on how much mana it takes to kill and control enemies. The general idea is that after nuking some mob to death you just stroll over and get your mana and health almost completely refilled. Simply killing them close and personal also works. However, with dual haste you should be able to wipe most fights with just auto-attacks such that mana is only used for luxuries such as pull of the abyss, grav ring, and firestorms (and the occasional walking bomb whenever theres the need to spice things up).

With solo play you'll be a little more hard pressed to kill enemies as fast and will probably need more spells etc. This may require a little more of a mana investment in the beginning.

Modifié par mr_afk, 16 août 2011 - 07:55 .

[andraip]

@aradace

I'm playing at easy difficulty, and if you need anythin else them autoattacks (heals, CCs and Hastes are useless) you're inept and doing something very very wrong.