127 réponses à ce sujet

[Kail Pendragon]

Lowlander wrote...

Kail Pendragon wrote...

And since you are not the OP, who cares?

He might.

Since as Shia points out, we should list the downsides, you should at least mention you have an Exp penalty in your build. It is a downside.

You should learn to read.  It's there, aye. No one is denying it or hiding it. But who cares you hate them? Possibly, only you.

[Shia Luck]

Hmmmmm 40 HP in an environment when even a mob can do that in one hit, never mind one round, or +1AB on a ranged attack (and halfling gets another +1 by using sling, and bullets are very useful, very very useful vs crit immune (hint hint OP) like skellies cos your dual wield blades do half damage) with a 4APR (5 with haste which is available on items in that environment) character?

/sarcasm/ Oh yes, toughness is much more useful than epic prowess ... LOL

Looking at tweaking in PBS and rapid shot makes sense, especially with halfling. Toughness is just there for if you have an extra feat and nothing better to do with it.

[Shia Luck]

Lowlander wrote...

My build has 368 skill points and it is just barely enough. What does that make your suggested build above with a paltry 281 skill points?

Naturally one could always enjoy more skill points, but 368 is a nice healthy amount.

Kail was respoding to the inital request for an assasin which gets half the skill points of a rogue. Bit of a pathetic argument, no?

Jumping on every build request thread and suggesting a ftr/rog or ranger/rog and ignoring the OP is quite a different way of doing things, no?

[C Barchuk]

Well I'm definitely not as knowledgeable on this game as you guys are. I wish I was. Either way, I'm excited to return back to this great game. I've always been a big assassin fan but I've never had much luck in creating a potent build using it. I've also been under the impression for a while now that epic dodge is a must for any dex rogue/assassin. This is just from the many posts I've read but maybe that's not the truly the case. I would still like to go the assassin route but it just seems that the only build I could go with, that still picks up epic dodge, would be the Assassin/Rogue/Shadow Dancer build which I like alot. But as you guys pointed out, it would rock until I came across badies immune to sneak attack. It would probably be frustrating at that point. That's why I figured the current Fighter/Rogue/Shadow Dancer would be better. Ultimately I want take this character all the way to level 40 if I can. I'm really excited about doing it. I just got the game finally working and now just trying to get my toon down.
Kail, I definitely appreciate your suggested build. I failed to mention that and I apologize. It looks fantastic as well. I really get into the role playing aspect of my character but i do want him to be powerful at the same time. Why couldn't NWN1 have the Epic Precision feat from NWN2 and then this whole sneak attack thing wouldn't be a problem...lol.
Stat-wise I originally was going to go with:

STR 10
DEX 20
CON 10
INT14
WIS 10
CHA 8

I'm totally okay with going with whatever you guys suggest. I thought the 20 dex would be a good idea but whatever is fine. You fine folks obviously know alot more than I do. So at any rate it appeared that the better assassin builds required a STR-based approach which I'm just not really fond of even if it is overall better. I just don't picture assassins wearing heavy armor, shields, and using a two-handed sword. I'm still open to suggestions but I guess I'm confused now what constitutes an effective assassin build.

Modifié par C Barchuk, 15 août 2011 - 03:07 .

[Shia Luck]

Lowlander wrote...



So again I provided exactly what he asked for,  and no one else has.

Exactly what he asked for?  Let's look at his request and your answer shall we?

C Barchuk wrote...

Getting ready to run the OC followed by
the 2 expansions. I'm wanting to run as assassin that's playable from
the gound up. Would love some suggestions. Thanks guys.

Lowlander wrote...

I don't play assassins because essentially they are evil Rogues with prerequisites. ...

.... without constraints I would be a Ranger/Rogue/Fighter, one of my favorite stealth combat builds. Combining Rogue skils, Fighter EWS, and Ranger FE/BoE...

And Lo and behold we are now discussing a ftr/rog... because you spam it in it every build thread

LOL... if you actually made your own builds you would know it takes time....  Maybe Kail was a little late in posting an interesting assasin build but custom building takes time, .... something you would know nothing about since you constantly claim to only play on easy, never in epic levels, and only ftr or ranger / rog.

At least Kail attempted to respond to the op's intial request instead of just saying "ftr/rog is the bestest"

You did after all claim in the weakest class thread

Lowlander wrote...

I would also vote Bard. Nice support
class with Bard Song, but likewise I have never included Bard levels
except as a prerequisite.

So you have these huge opinions with absolutely no experience. All you do is play fighter rogue. Congratulations on working out how AB works but FFS you got to take into account playstyle and environment and the fact that people may want to play things that are not optimum but are still fun and viable.


And really... this was your first post

Lowlander wrote...

Shia have a chill pill.

and then you edited it to say ....

Lowlander wrote...

Shia Pet have a chill pill.

You sexist. How low can you go. Editing your post to include a remark about my gender because you can't argue with me about building. FFS ... You really are simply a desperate troll. I feel sorry for you.

[Shia Luck]

C Barchuk wrote...

 I've always been a big assassin fan but I've never had much luck in creating a potent build using it. I've also been under the impression for a while now that epic dodge is a must for any dex rogue/assassin.

It's a major feat, no doubt. But you don;t have to have it. For example monk speed means you can easily escape any opponent who is giving you trouble, and monk gives a lot of other early benefits, cleave being a huge one, not to mention the extra attack from flurry of blows. Unarmaed is also an option with monk and while it can be not so good in HotU (cause it cant be upgraded), against undead and In SOF it becomes incredibly useful because bludgeoning damage is the only type not resisted by things like skellies. And wherever you go, skellies are the most common crit immune enemy.

C Barchuk wrote...

So at any rate it appeared that the better assassin builds required a STR-based approach which I'm just not really fond of even if it is overall better. I just don't picture assassins wearing heavy armor, shields, and using a two-handed sword. I'm still open to suggestions but I guess I'm confused now what constitutes an effective assassin build.

I disagree, there are good assassin builds focusing on strength but the best ones are dex IMHO... and I agree it makes much more sense RP wise.

I would also like to apologise for the the way your thread has been somewhat taken over by the infighting.... Trolls need fire and acid sometimes. Feel free to conduct your own search to prove veracity of any claim and while you are free to dismiss Lowlander (please acid anf fire lol) and myself , Kail has been an epic builder for longer than I ever played the game. Always listen to his advice. you don;t have to take it but always listen.

I am out of here now before I get another demeaning sexist comment thrown at me by a troll and I lose my temper. *grin*

Have fun

[Shia Luck]

Lowlander wrote...

Ah Shia Pet (a take on Chia Pet BTW) the master of quoting out of context.

Luckily for you, my american friends on YIM noticed the chia pet reference, and have informed me about it. They also say that there is no relevance to quoting out of context and it can only be taken as an insult.... so maybe not sexist, just rude? ...
 
I fail to see how that is better, personally.

[Krazy Solo]

Hmm... I wonder why no one mention the Bard/Assassin/Shadowdancer build? The build essentially get all the rogue skill point total and then some while getting Epic Dodge and having spellcasting as back up versus Crit Immune. Even if the Op doesn't like casting spell could easily still fight crit immune with bard song. I appologize if I don't recall the exact build off hand.

Also I might be wrong but you only need 7 lvls of Shadowdancer to qualify for Epic Dodge. At lvl 5 you get defensive roll, Improve Evasion at lvl 7. I could be mistaken on this but I thought I mention it.

[C Barchuk]

Low, I really appreciate the help man for sure and that goes for everybody. I appreciate all this great feedback. I went ahead and looked up some ranger/assassin/? builds since ranger does seem to go with assassin the best. A build I found, that looks pretty good, is:

http://home.comcast....1533.html#page1

So I'm think of trying that out or still going with the Fighter/Rogue/SD that you helped me with. Both look like pretty sweet builds. The assassin build doesn't have epic dodge or HiPS but it still looks like a very cool, flavorful build. I might use a character builder and make both at level 40 and see how they run before starting the OC. Just curious, what is the best character builder mod for testing out builds? Is it still Halls of Advanced Training? That was the one I remember. Shia I appreciate you trying to keep the assassin in the game so to speak. Hopefully I'll like this one. But I like both builds at this point so now I just have to decide. I guess that's the a good problem to have

[Kail Pendragon]

Lowlander wrote...

Kail. Regarding the above. It is generally common builder courtesy to mention experience point penalties as they are a downside and often not immediately obvious.  It isn't just me that avoids exp penalties. Many people don't want be a level behind because of a build choice.

And you don't get the point once more: who cares you hate XP penalties? Don't get me wrong, you did well to point it out since I forgot but really do we have to be updates about all you hate/despise/loath at every chance?

And neither the suggested build did.

The original halfling build we were tweaking had 12 con, and he didn't update the stats, so I wasn't sure.

The last build he posted had 19 Dex and 14 Con at the start. Even if he didn't post th eupdated stat 19 starting Dex is evident from the fact that at the fist stat increase it goes to 20 and 14 Con is the only way that build could have 362  HPs. Of course I have a further source of insight about that build but then again one just needs to be able to read and to be able to do some very basic math...

It's much lesss than you think. Just barely enough to get the main things, but another 50+ points could still easily be spent.

My build

Which is actually and firstly my build too since it was me to quickly roll it up for the OP as a guideline to be optimized

has 368 skill points and it is just barely enough. What does that make your suggested build above with a paltry 281 skill points?

With even less skillpoints than necessary. That build is just a suggestion for a "different" assassin build with good performance on the field (since the OP asked about an assassin build), I never claimed it to be anything else than what it is nor for it to be better than any other.

Naturally one could always enjoy more skill points, but 368 is a nice healthy amount.

Aye it is. And yet, one ends up missing something here and there. Skillpoints are never enough, ah! (yes, it's an hyperbole)

Modifié par Kail Pendragon, 15 août 2011 - 11:38 .

[Kail Pendragon]

Double post

Modifié par Kail Pendragon, 15 août 2011 - 11:30 .

[Kail Pendragon]

Lowlander wrote...

Shia Luck wrote...

Jumping on every build request thread
and suggesting a ftr/rog or ranger/rog and ignoring the OP is quite a
different way of doing things, no?

Shia Pet have a chill pill. You are having reading comprehension problems again.

Me don't like for sweet Shia to be so addressed. An apology is necessary here.

I am providing builds/tweaking to the original posters request. At each step I try to provide exactly what he asked for.

First he wanted a Dex based Assassin/SD, and that is exactly what I provided (several Ranger/Assassin/SD splits) as the discussion progressed he made it clear that Epic Dodge was the priority. Kail posting another Assassin/Monk at that point really had nothing to do with the Original poster because he had clearly moved on to wanting Epic Dodger and even before that he wanted SD not monk.

And so let the OP talk for himself. You are not the OP, you see? If I choose to address a previous request of the OP, he will be the one to judge whether my post is something he finds useful or not, with no need for you to state what you hate/despise/loathe and bs like that.

So again I provided exactly what he asked for, an Epic Dodger,  and no one else has. 

Can we get a statue built for the hero Lowlander?

I don't see how you can see this as ignoring the OP, when I have been in discussion with him, and providing exactly what he asked for at each step. ??

You are not the OP dude. So talk to the OP, make your suggestions, possibly point out features that have not been evidenced in other builds. But leave out the strawman and pointless arguments evidencing lack of logical reasoning you are so accustomed to.

Modifié par Kail Pendragon, 15 août 2011 - 12:49 .

[Kail Pendragon]

C Barchuk wrote...

Kail, I definitely appreciate your suggested build. I failed to mention that and I apologize...

No worries dude, I just suggested a build which may be of your interest and that had not been already addressed. The FTR/Rogue/SD also is a nice build as are many others. Point is in this game there are a lot of nice builds to play, some will be more powerful, some less but the fun factor i seasy to achieve. Also, each build has its own way to be played, its strength and weaknesses.

[Kail Pendragon]

Krazy Solo wrote...

Also I might be wrong but you only need 7 lvls of Shadowdancer to qualify for Epic Dodge. At lvl 5 you get defensive roll, Improve Evasion at lvl 7. I could be mistaken on this but I thought I mention it.

Lvl 7 grants slippery mind, it's lvl 10 to grant IE.

[WebShaman]

TBH - excepting a very rare Environment, the Wiz 36/Rng 2/Ass 2 is going to be your most powerful build, bar none.

NOTHING can stop it. You will have the full casting power of a Wizard, combined with melee ability and Death Attack that is basically unlimited (Wand of Invis...yup, or just create scrolls with Invis on them).

SD is a great addition, no doubt about it, but you have to fill the prereqs, of course. Expensive.

For someone who does not enjoy playing casters, probably not the best choice, however.

I also vehemently object to the nasty label applied to Shia in this thread. A new "low" here. Totally uncalled for.

@ Shia - ass as sin.

Hehe...

Modifié par WebShaman, 15 août 2011 - 11:57 .

[Kail Pendragon]

C Barchuk wrote...
I've also been under the impression for a while now that epic dodge is a must for any dex rogue/assassin. This is just from the many posts I've read but maybe that's not the truly the case.

I won't deny that ED is something big. Being a dexer unfortunately is not enough to qualify for ED (while instead beign a STR based build is enough to qualify for Dev Crit) since one needs class specific feats. This means conversely that not all dexers will be epic dodgers (and assassin has no access to IE and Defensive Roll unfortunately) and yet, lo and behold, there are efficient dex based non epic dodging builds to be played and enjoyed.

In the assassin case, if you want ED you have to choose between getting 13 Rogue, 10 SD, and Monk 9/SD 5 if you want to keep a good amount of Assn levels to pump up the DA DC. The 10 SD choice implies Ranger as third class for classed stealth skills to qualify early enough if you want to keep a full BAB class in. Otherwise Bard and Rogue but no full BAB there. Monk 9/SD 5 already fills the two other class slots and has no full BAB class in (but has monk for the extra APR). Rogue 13 leaves little room for something like FTR, but not much without "compromising" the DA DC.

So an epic dodging assassin can surely be built (and enjoyed), but it has its own tradeoffs. If you forego ED, then you get more options at your disposal which will bring tehir own advanatges without hurting the DA DC (in the build I posted eg, you get a nice AB both ranged and melee, EWS, extra speed, extra APR both melee and ranged, a nice unbuffed DA DC of 40, etc. of course at the cost of ED... this is just to illustrate one example of giving up something to get something else back). Now it's up to you to decide what to play and besides you can chose to play as many builds as you want given the replayability of many modules and the sheer amount of modules available on the vault.

[Kail Pendragon]

WebShaman wrote...

TBH - excepting a very rare Environment, the Wiz 36/Rng 2/Ass 2 is going to be your most powerful build, bar none.

The Rng/Assn MMM is just awesome and it is so all across the levels. I prefer the Rng 1/Ass 4 split (I ignore the discipline dump given the generally availability of KD immunity), but details apart, it's a rocking machine of destruction.

Modifié par Kail Pendragon, 15 août 2011 - 12:08 .

[C Barchuk]

WebShaman wrote...

TBH - excepting a very rare Environment, the Wiz 36/Rng 2/Ass 2 is going to be your most powerful build, bar none.

NOTHING can stop it. You will have the full casting power of a Wizard, combined with melee ability and Death Attack that is basically unlimited (Wand of Invis...yup, or just create scrolls with Invis on them).

SD is a great addition, no doubt about it, but you have to fill the prereqs, of course. Expensive.

For someone who does not enjoy playing casters, probably not the best choice, however.

I also vehemently object to the nasty label applied to Shia in this thread. A new "low" here. Totally uncalled for.

@ Shia - ass as sin.

Hehe...

I mean this character looks like just a plain wizard. What's the point in having only 2 levels of assassin? Death Attack DC will be low as well death attack damage will be low. Not a very good assassin in my opinion. Wizard...yes, assassin...no. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure this character is the most powerful as are most casters are in the NWN and BG series. I don't mind combining a little bit of wizard into the mix but not as the main class. I guess I have a hard time picturing a predominately wizard dual wielding in wizard robes. I guess I'm more of a 2nd edition guy in many aspects where I like my characters specialized instead of the swiss army knife approach that 3rd edition brings though I do like 3rd edition in many ways too. I appreciate the suggestion though and will try it out in the future for sure.

[C Barchuk]

Kail Pendragon wrote...

C Barchuk wrote...
I've also been under the impression for a while now that epic dodge is a must for any dex rogue/assassin. This is just from the many posts I've read but maybe that's not the truly the case.

I won't deny that ED is something big. Being a dexer unfortunately is not enough to qualify for ED (while instead beign a STR based build is enough to qualify for Dev Crit) since one needs class specific feats. This means conversely that not all dexers will be epic dodgers (and assassin has no access to IE and Defensive Roll unfortunately) and yet, lo and behold, there are efficient dex based non epic dodging builds to be played and enjoyed.

In the assassin case, if you want ED you have to choose between getting 13 Rogue, 10 SD, and Monk 9/SD 5 if you want to keep a good amount of Assn levels to pump up the DA DC. The 10 SD choice implies Ranger as third class for classed stealth skills to qualify early enough if you want to keep a full BAB class in. Otherwise Bard and Rogue but no full BAB there. Monk 9/SD 5 already fills the two other class slots and has no full BAB class in (but has monk for the extra APR). Rogue 13 leaves little room for something like FTR, but not much without "compromising" the DA DC.

So an epic dodging assassin can surely be built (and enjoyed), but it has its own tradeoffs. If you forego ED, then you get more options at your disposal which will bring tehir own advanatges without hurting the DA DC (in the build I posted eg, you get a nice AB both ranged and melee, EWS, extra speed, extra APR both melee and ranged, a nice unbuffed DA DC of 40, etc. of course at the cost of ED... this is just to illustrate one example of giving up something to get something else back). Now it's up to you to decide what to play and besides you can chose to play as many builds as you want given the replayability of many modules and the sheer amount of modules available on the vault.

Hey Kail, thanks for the feedback brother. Your right. I guess I'm trying to make an assassin or rogue build that has all the angles covered with no weakspots but that just isn't going to happen. On that note I'm going to try out your suggested build as well. Yea at first I kept telling myself its got to have epic dodge!:DBut now I think I'm starting to get what your saying better. So I'll try out Low's build, yours and then the other assassin build I found there in the archives and see how they do. Is Halls of Advanced Training still considered the best character builder?

[Kail Pendragon]

C Barchuk wrote...

WebShaman wrote...

TBH - excepting a very rare Environment, the Wiz 36/Rng 2/Ass 2 is going to be your most powerful build, bar none.

NOTHING can stop it. You will have the full casting power of a Wizard, combined with melee ability and Death Attack that is basically unlimited (Wand of Invis...yup, or just create scrolls with Invis on them).

SD is a great addition, no doubt about it, but you have to fill the prereqs, of course. Expensive.

For someone who does not enjoy playing casters, probably not the best choice, however.

I also vehemently object to the nasty label applied to Shia in this thread. A new "low" here. Totally uncalled for.

@ Shia - ass as sin.

Hehe...

I mean this character looks like just a plain wizard. What's the point in having only 2 levels of assassin? Death Attack DC will be low as well death attack damage will be low. Not a very good assassin in my opinion. Wizard...yes, assassin...no. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure this character is the most powerful as are most casters are in the NWN and BG series. I don't mind combining a little bit of wizard into the mix but not as the main class. I guess I have a hard time picturing a predominately wizard dual wielding in wizard robes. I guess I'm more of a 2nd edition guy in many aspects where I like my characters specialized instead of the swiss army knife approach that 3rd edition brings though I do like 3rd edition in many ways too. I appreciate the suggestion though and will try it out in the future for sure.

I'll give you my take on the Wiz/Assn/Rng since I'm one that appreciates the build. It is evidently a wizard first and foremost. But it's a special kind of wizard, one that is not afraid to go into battle (buffed up of course) to get rid of mobs and keeps its spells for when it really counts. You may be familiar with the Melee Mage build and character concept by Webshaman; this is a multiclass melee mage (aka MMM) which is a wizard build played melee mage style with some slight and of course advantageous multiclassing.

In the case of the Wiz/Rgr/Assn the DA DC is low but not too low and it's very useful to paralyze mobs and even bosses on a roll of 1 (26 DC unbuffed, 32 with capped Int which is easily the case). Assn also brings classed tumble, UMD and set/disable trap and the build turns out to be a pretty powerful and versatile one. But aye, it's not really an assassin build as one ordinarly means it. It's a melee mage with some spice. You can see my take on it here