32 réponses à ce sujet

[Gervaise]

Something that bugged me almost straight away was that if you pursue the Anders romance he treats it as a political statement (like Winston Smith in 1984) - "Of all the Chantry rules, I enjoy breaking this one the most."  Now I appreciate that letting the Templars see you have affection for another mage, could give them a hold over you but, outside of Kirkwall, provided you aren't whispering sweet nothings and blowing kisses right in front of them, how would they know?  It has been recorded that mages if anything are less bound by social convention than people outside the Circle and this seems borne out by his assertion that in Ferelden everyone is kissing everyone else, and in Awakening that mage robes are useful for a quick bit of sex.   So whilst sex does not equal love, if everyone is at it, how would they be able to spot that someone has a particular affection for someone else?    What is frowned on is mages having children, but his previous lover was a man, for which there are no Maker prohibitions, and if anything this would be actively encouraged since same sex union cannot possible result in children.  And if anything you would think that relationships between mages would be encouraged because this would make them less likely to want to leave the Circle, unless of course they wanted to start a family and enjoy a normal family life, but that is not what Anders is suggesting.  As for Emile, the reason he hasn't had sex in the Kirkwall Circle would appear to be less to do with the rules and more to do with his sex appeal - as evidenced by Isabella's reaction if you jokingly suggest she gives him a good time.

In Origins the problem about the liaison between Jowan and Lily is the fact that it is between a mage and non-mage who is a Chantry sister, for which there would be various objections by the Chantry.  The same would apply if a Templar and mage were to form a romantic bond.  But when my female mage had the opportunity of asking Jowan why they had never had sex, the reply wasn't "I didn't want to break the rules with you" but "I thought of you as my sister."   Since mages are fairly free to socialise provided they stay within the boundaries of the Circle, the only real problem would appear to be that it might make a celibate Templar feel awkward if they are carrying on right in front of them.  But then we discover in DA2 that apparently Templars don't have to be celibate and can marry - which I thought was the whole point of why the desire demon got to the Templar in the Tower.  Likewise the discussion between the warden and Alistair over his previous sexual experience and the assumption that because he was a trainee Templar he wouldn't have had sex.  Compare this with the acknowledgement that in Kirkwall trainee templars and no doubt proper ones are frequenting the local brothel with the full knowledge of the second in command.

So what is the deal here?  Was it just Anders' former loves who were used a way as maintaining a hold over him personally or was everything we were told in Origins a contradiction of the situation elsewhere both for Templars and mages?

[Xilizhra]

Hawke isn't in the Circle regardless, and that's the rule that would be being broken.

[esper]

Well, Wynnes child was taken from her at birth so I guess that as a generel rule the templars will rather not see any relationships because they don't want mages children.

[whykikyouwhy]

I think that it all depends on the Circle, the local Chantry, and the attitude of the mage.

Anders felt that he was being imprisoned by being in the Circle - he saw abuses there. As a rebel of sorts, his past was probably held over him as a way to control him, to stifle his voice. The easiest way to keep someone in check is to threaten what they love.

Kirkwall's Circle/Templar Order was in a different state of balance than the Circle we know from DA:O. Fear over mages is ramped up high in Kirkwall - there is an evident imbalance in power, with templars pretty much being able to enact certain abuses while a blind-eye is turned. The same attitude would probably be applied toward liaisons and the like. Kirkwall's templars, being in a position of power, are probably free to dabble where and how they please, so long as they do their job and keep the mages in line. And mages are kept under stricter rules regarding their relationships, lest they breed abominations (not saying that they would, just punctuating what may have been the attitude in the city).

So I think it all boils down to location mainly, not to any story inconsistencies. Different cities, different Circles, different rules. I could be wrong, though. But it makes sense to me.

Modifié par whykikyouwhy, 14 août 2011 - 01:01 .

[LobselVith8]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

So I think it all boils down to location mainly, not to any story inconsistencies. Different cities, different Circles, different rules. I could be wrong, though. But it makes sense to me.

You're correct. This is what Gaider stated about how Circles of Magi handle relationships between mages - some condone them, while others prohibit them. He said as much here:

David Gaider wrote...

Mages within the Circle are permitted to marry, but it's impractical with outsiders and they also must get permission from the Chantry (so it might be considered a reward for good behavior). Even so, the culture within the typical Circle of Magi tends to make mages unwilling to marry. The policy on fraternization will depend on the individual Circle-- some forbid it, while others do not, though in either case it still occurs. Considering mages live outside normal culture, they also consider themselves free of cultural conventions (especially those who were raised in a Circle from a young age) and thus tend to be quite liberal in their views.

Whew! Okay-- verbose answer of the day. Time for coffee.

Note: I bolded the section where he addresses that each Circle has different rules about relationships.

[Evil_Jashinist]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

So I think it all boils down to location mainly, not to any story inconsistencies. Different cities, different Circles, different rules. I could be wrong, though. But it makes sense to me.

Nope, you're probably right. To be fair, if every circle in DA was like the one in Ferelden, there might've been a way to prevent... you-know-what from happening. Meredith made me miss Gregoir 

[LobselVith8]

esper wrote...

Well, Wynnes child was taken from her at birth so I guess that as a generel rule the templars will rather not see any relationships because they don't want mages children.

That happens to all Circle mages - except Grey Warden mages.

David Gaider wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Yes, married or not the child of a mage is taken away by the Chantry.

Would the same happen if the mage was also a Grey Warden, such as the Warden-Commander of DA:O and Awakenings?

A mage who is not part of the Circle is not subject to the will of the Chantry. So, no.

Being a Grey Warden mage certainly has its benefits - and I'd imagine the child of The Warden (from the Circle) and Morrigan would be protected from the Chantry by The Warden's status as a result.

[ipgd]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Being a Grey Warden mage certainly has its benefits - and I'd imagine the child of The Warden (from the Circle) and Morrigan would be protected from the Chantry by The Warden's status as a result.

According to Fiona in the Calling, Grey Wardens still give up any children they may have. Just not to the Chantry.

I imagine a mage child of a Warden would still end up being sent to the Circle when their powers manifest.

[Leonia]

I imagine if a Grey Warden were to "use their status" to protect a child (as rare as it would be for a Warden to have one) that they might entertain the idea of conscripting their child when they are old enough to serve the Wardens. There is risk in doing this, of course, but it would be the best way to keep the child away from the Chantry (if that's really what the Warden is trying to do).

[Gervaise]

I very much doubt Morrigan's child would get special status because it came from a Grey Warden - rather the reverse considering how difficult it is meant to be for Grey Warden's to conceive and that Morrigan is an apostate.  At the end, when Alistair had to do the deed, he comments to the Warden how the others are asking questions on how they both survived and he plans on acting dumb to throw them off the scent.  But bearing in mind how up to their necks in strange ritiuals the Warden's are themselves, I shouldn't think it would take too long for them to put two and two together.  Mind you the Chantry wouldn't necessarily get to hear of it - the Wardens would probably have their own ideas on how the child would be used.   Hence Morrigan's desire to get away from the scene as quickly as possible - she's no fool.

[miraclemight]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Anders felt that he was being imprisoned by being in the Circle - he saw abuses there. As a rebel of sorts, his past was probably held over him as a way to control him, to stifle his voice. The easiest way to keep someone in check is to threaten what they love.

But does it really matter to him? He showed that he's willing to sacrifice even the person he 'loves' for the 'good' of his cause. He doesn't even hesitate to take advantage of that relationship to gain what he wants.

And the fact that he quickly asks Hawke to let him come to the Estate after what could have been a one night stand makes me more wary of him. What is it that he mostly wants? Love? or status?

And no matter how much you help the mages and him alone, if you refuse to help him continue what is defnitely a suspicious action after what was obviously a lie, the first thing that he says is that he was "always alone".

The moment he said that I just wanted Hawke to look him in the eye and slap him as hard as she could, before telling him that he could stay in the clinic for the night.

As for Morrigan's child - It was more about raising him in secret for reasons she didn't want to tell to the Warden, than the Circle taking the child away from her.

Modifié par miraclemight, 14 août 2011 - 01:38 .

[LobselVith8]

ipgd wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Being a Grey Warden mage certainly has its benefits - and I'd imagine the child of The Warden (from the Circle) and Morrigan would be protected from the Chantry by The Warden's status as a result.

According to Fiona in the Calling, Grey Wardens still give up any children they may have. Just not to the Chantry.

I imagine a mage child of a Warden would still end up being sent to the Circle when their powers manifest.

Fiona handed her child to Maric, but it seems like there's a grey area for Warden mages - the Hero of Ferelden can become the new Teyrn of Gwaren, for instance, even though it technically goes against Chantry law for a mage to obtain a title. Anders seems to be protected initially (prior to the Champion's status protecting him) by the perception that he's a Grey Warden in Kirkwall who is healing people outside of his duties - as Cullen outright addresses him as a mage in one conversation at the Gallows. The Warden can leave the Grey Wardens and travel with Leliana instead of returning to the Circle of Ferelden if he romanced her. And I doubt The Warden would be forced to hand over his child with Morrigan to the Chantry, even if his son did show signs of magical ability.

[miraclemight]

The Warden's child is not a Grey Warden. Unless he wanted to conscript his son at the age of one (!), nothing was going to stop the Chantry from taking him away if he turned out to be a mage.

[ipgd]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Fiona handed her child to Maric, but it seems like there's a grey area for Warden mages - the Hero of Ferelden can become the new Teyrn of Gwaren, for instance, even though it technically goes against Chantry law for a mage to obtain a title. Anders seems to be protected initially (prior to the Champion's status protecting him) by the perception that he's a Grey Warden in Kirkwall who is healing people outside of his duties - as Cullen outright addresses him as a mage in one conversation at the Gallows. The Warden can leave the Grey Wardens and travel with Leliana instead of returning to the Circle of Ferelden if he romanced her. And I doubt The Warden would be forced to hand over his child with Morrigan to the Chantry, even if his son did show signs of magical ability.

The Warden, perhaps not. I doubt a standard member of the Wardens would be afforded that kind of special treatment, though (i.e. immunity for his still technically non-Warden mage child as well as himself).

[LobselVith8]

Gervaise wrote...

I very much doubt Morrigan's child would get special status because it came from a Grey Warden - rather the reverse considering how difficult it is meant to be for Grey Warden's to conceive and that Morrigan is an apostate.  At the end, when Alistair had to do the deed, he comments to the Warden how the others are asking questions on how they both survived and he plans on acting dumb to throw them off the scent.  But bearing in mind how up to their necks in strange ritiuals the Warden's are themselves, I shouldn't think it would take too long for them to put two and two together.  Mind you the Chantry wouldn't necessarily get to hear of it - the Wardens would probably have their own ideas on how the child would be used.   Hence Morrigan's desire to get away from the scene as quickly as possible - she's no fool.

Warden Loghain says something similar (to what Alistair says) if The Warden doesn't outright reveal what happened - that he has his suspicions, but he won't divulge them to the curious Wardens.

As for Morrigan, considering that The Warden apparently quashed the Chantry putting a bounty on her head because they suspected she may be a blood mage - which is noted for the Orlesian Warden in Witch Hunt that there's a bounty on her head without The Warden - I don't see why The Warden couldn't protect his son as well.

[esper]

I am perfectly convinced that Morrigan is capable of protecting the child herself, and she is as anti-chantry as they come so I am sure that Morrigan herself would never hand the child over - not after all the trouble she went to, to create it.

[Reznore57]

The thing is magic seems to be a bit genetic , so i can understand why the chantry goes against sexy times between mages.And well , love is something strong and can make us do crazy thing.
So the chantry might believe that in taking that they keep the mages more "in control".
It's not just about romances , mages are not allowed to keep in touch with their famillies at worst they can send them letters at best.

[Plaintiff]

You weren't paying that much attention to the scene, you're taking the line entirely out of context.

Anders tells Hawke that in the Circle "Love was only a game. It gave the templars too much power if there was something you couldn't stand to lose. It would kill me to lose you... No mage I know has ever dared to fall in love. This is the rule I will most cherish breaking."

There is no official Circle rule against relationships. The mages forbid themselves from loving because, in an unstable, volatile situation like their virtual imprisonment, the risk of getting hurt is just too high. Anders isn't making a rebellious statement by breaking a Chantry law, he's opening himself up to the possibility of great pain by breaking one of his own, personal rules. That is what he means.

Anders never loved Karl, or anyone else before Hawke. Not the way he seems to define "love", anyway. He has had lovers but the term can be, and is often used to refer to any sort of sexual relationship, regardless of how serious it is in an emotional sense.

As for Alistair, if I remember rightly, it has nothing to do with his being a templar. His virginity is assumed because he was raised in the Chantry. Templars are allowed to marry and have children, possibly. Chantry priestesses and lay brothers, however, are not. If you romance Sebastian on the friendship path, for example, he proposes to femHawke, offering a chaste marriage because blah blah, religious claptrap (I've never actually romanced him, for precisely this reason).

Modifié par Plaintiff, 14 août 2011 - 02:39 .

[DPSSOC]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Being a Grey Warden mage certainly has its benefits - and I'd imagine the child of The Warden (from the Circle) and Morrigan would be protected from the Chantry by The Warden's status as a result.

Do you really need the Warden's status to protect you when this is your mother?

[Gervaise]

For "no mage has ever dared fall in love", I'll substitute "I've never dared" and I'll buy that one but I think it would be an exaggeration to say that no mage in the Circle has ever fallen in love and not enjoyed a bit of happiness. However, "It would kill me to lose you....." Hmm, and then we have the events of Act 3. Justice certainly seems to have put the boot in on poor old Anders, doesn't he? Sort of dramatic irony if you end up killing him.

[Plaintiff]

Gervaise wrote...

For "no mage has ever dared fall in love", I'll substitute "I've never dared" and I'll buy that one but I think it would be an exaggeration to say that no mage in the Circle has ever fallen in love and not enjoyed a bit of happiness. However, "It would kill me to lose you....." Hmm, and then we have the events of Act 3. Justice certainly seems to have put the boot in on poor old Anders, doesn't he? Sort of dramatic irony if you end up killing him.

I'm just quoting what he says. He likely is exaggerating a bit, but he says "No mage I know", so he's only claiming to speak from his personal experience. And he is pretty upfront with you that his mage rebellion takes precedence over his love for you. He says that it's "bigger than both of us" and that he won't let his feelings for you get in the way of what he perceives as his moral duty to his fellow mages.

It's never an issue for me or my Hawkes, because I support his cause totally. I consider the blowing up of the Chantry a pleasant surprise. Sure, he lied about it, but I'm not gonna stab him for that. All couples have the occasional rough patch.

That line is a bit foreshadow-y, though, isn't it. He also says he'd drown the both of you in a river of blood if it would keep you safe. And if you rivalmance him, he says he can't decide if he wants to kill you or kiss you. Talk about your histrionics. XD

But god help me, I do love melodrama.

[Gervaise]

Actually the melodramatics is what I might expect from the Anders I knew in Awakening. He was very effusive and enthusiastic about things and always just a little bit OTT. So happy carefree, devil may care Anders has now just become a bit of a drama queen. Just for the matter of interest - do you actually find the idea of someone drowning you in a river of blood just to keep you safe romantic? I mean I get the sentiment but the way of expressing it - I would battle the whole host of ithe darkspawn, take on the archdemon single handedly, storm the gates of hell - those sorts of things - but rivers of blood, I'm not so sure. But then again apparently you have no objection to the bomb so.........

[LobselVith8]

Gervaise wrote...

For "no mage has ever dared fall in love", I'll substitute "I've never dared" and I'll buy that one but I think it would be an exaggeration to say that no mage in the Circle has ever fallen in love and not enjoyed a bit of happiness.

It seems to me that Anders is talking about the Circle mages he knew back in the Ferelden Circle, rather than making a blanket statement about all mages across time and space. We know from the revolt that there were mages who were very unhappy with how the Chantry and its templars controlled the Circle of Magi.

Gervaise wrote...

However, "It would kill me to lose you....." Hmm, and then we have the events of Act 3. Justice certainly seems to have put the boot in on poor old Anders, doesn't he? Sort of dramatic irony if you end up killing him.

I suppose it depends heavily on whether Hawke agrees with Anders' actions or not. Do they agree with the status quo, or think that the Circles of Magi need autonomy from the Chantry and its templars, no matter the cost?

[Gervaise]

I know people think I'm weird for thinking this way, but sometimes you know if you win the war but lose your soul, somehow I don't feel it is worth it. And this stuff about doing anything to survive - it just makes me have more respect for those who don't. Yes, I know that is the whole point of the Grey Wardens - if they hadn't done what they did, they would never have found a way to defeat the blight, but at least there was no question that what they opposed was evil. It was that blood speech by Anders that made me reload and go with Fenris. You see, if I had lost the plot, become an abomination, or whatever, I feel I could trust him to kill me before I did something terrible - because I would no longer be the person he loved. (Think Wolverine and Jean). I wouldn't want him fighting off the Templars or whoever to keep me alive. If the majority of mages we encountered in the game had been like Bethany or Ella, then I might be more passionate about mage freedom but the fact is that they are not and apart from the Hawke family, the decent ones are inside the Circle, which is why I felt obliged to save them. That is pretty clear before an Anders romance can move on to another level, so I was put off even before I knew the ending. Now I do, try as I might to come up with a convincing character who could go with this, like with sparing Loghain in Origins, I just can't do it. And the more I listen to him, the more I start spotting ambiguities and evasions and the get out clause is meant to be that he always warned you not to love him, so you only have yourself to blame if he breaks you heart. Well, I take the warning a face value, I don't romance him and feel really cheated as a friend when he blows the Chantry because the trouble is, during the first half of the game I am all for mage freedom and so can't avoid being one. He's quite right, though, if he'd told me I would have stopped him. I can't help thinking that if I'd been standing in the Chantry when the time came for it to go up, he'd have gone ahead regardless, though I must admit I'm still puzzled how he achieved this when he was nowhere near it - a very long fuse?

[EmperorSahlertz]

In our world, where soul is nothing but speculation, yes it could be considered silly to think such thoughts. In Thedas, where the soul is an actual concern, it isn't silly to think that way.