628 réponses à ce sujet

[hoorayforicecream]

Monica21 wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...
I feel it takes away from the role playing if it is really the only choice. If not many people used them, there's less reason to spend developer time doing that than other things, and given the amount of time they had with DA2, it's "skills" or "something else", and they chose "something else".

But it's not the only choice. You can still get into the Tower without using Persuade or Intimidate, it just takes a bit longer. 

If developer time is what we're talking about then that's perfectly understandable, especially given the short development cycle.

The thing is that compared to the rest, the other skills are mostly worthless. So you can *choose* not to pick Coercion, but that's like saying "I can choose to walk 10 miles to work instead of drive". You could, but that's not going to stop most people from driving.

[Zoikster]

Vormaerin wrote...

Zoikster wrote...

There are people positing that game choices have to have impacts on the end of the game to be worthy, I disagree. Simple as that.

That's fine.  But you can't take that line and then turn around and dismiss every decision in DA2 as irrelevant.   There are lots of decisions in both games.  Both games are linear.  DA2 is slightly less linear, because more of your decisions are reflected in the story.   But neither is anything remotely like a branched story, much less a sandbox.  Bioware doesn't make branched story or sandbox games.

You may prefer to decide whether Bhelen or Harrowmont is King rather than decide whether a unique magical talent like Feynriel becomes Tranquil, Abomination, or Tevinter apprentice.  Fine, but don't claim there are more decisions in DA:O, because there aren't.

You're free to think that. I just disagree w the contention that "more of the decisions are reflected in the story." That's not true at all.

Modifié par Zoikster, 14 août 2011 - 10:49 .

[Zanallen]

Zoikster wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

Well, it seems to me that the OP doesn't actually want a discussion. He seems to believe that his opinions are the only ones that matter and that if he isn't happy with the game, no one else should be either. Oh, and that Laidlaw is out to get him.

Doesn't help when you're hyperbolic.

What is hyperbolic about it? You are constantly dismissing the opinions of others with crap responses like "I liked it so it was impactful to me" or accusing people of saying things that they never actually said. And the whole tone of your argument seems to be that Laidlaw is purposely destroying the "record breaking" and "pedestal worthy" RPG known as DA:O.

[devSin]

Vormaerin wrote...

Zoikster wrote...

There are people positing that game choices have to have impacts on the end of the game to be worthy, I disagree. Simple as that.

That's fine.  But you can't take that line and then turn around and dismiss every decision in DA2 as irrelevant.   There are lots of decisions in both games.  Both games are linear.  DA2 is slightly less linear, because more of your decisions are reflected in the story.   But neither is anything remotely like a branched story, much less a sandbox.  Bioware doesn't make branched story or sandbox games.

You may prefer to decide whether Bhelen or Harrowmont is King rather than decide whether a unique magical talent like Feynriel becomes Tranquil, Abomination, or Tevinter apprentice.  Fine, but don't claim there are more decisions in DA:O, because there aren't.

This was exactly my thought, as well.

If that's the criteria for choice, then DA2 has tons of choices.

But this argument doesn't seem to actually have anything to do with "choice", or really any actual concern, beyond simply not liking the game.

Modifié par devSin, 14 août 2011 - 10:53 .

[TEWR]

Monica21 wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

I say that it was busted in the sense that it needed fixing for it to be a system that actually benefited the game in a meaningful way. Of course, it does work and has its benefits, but that's not really what's being argued on my part, it's that in my view, the system was simply very poorly implemented.

The word "busted" here doesn't really mean "it didn't work at all" (like say X talent was bugged and didn't work as it was intended to work). Perhaps the term "busted" is not the most appropriate as it gives the impressions that something just doesn't work. "Flawed", "poorly implemented" might be better terms to convey the feeling.

And this is where I'd rather see the system refined rather than stripped altogether.

what I'd like to see is maybe a little cutscene depending on what you're doing and the ability to make as many of something as possible (I hated having to press the X button on my PS3 controller hundreds of times).


Example: You want to craft 30 Venom poisons. So you adjust it to "Make 30 Venom" and hit the X button. A small cutscene then plays showing your Warden mixing powder, deathroots, potions, etc.

Star Ocean: Till the End of Time had something similar, where it would show the three inventors doing whatever you tasked them to do. If they were participating in smithery (something I want to see added to DA), they would wield a hammer and work at the forge.

Here's a pic of one of the inventors you could recruit bringing items for cooking:






edit: this is just a thought. It's by no means the full extent of what I'd like to see, but it's a start at improving crafting.


EDIT 2: Just realized improving how to craft is not relevant to the quote, which talks about making crafting meaningful to the game and story.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 14 août 2011 - 10:59 .

[Aeowyn]

Zoikster wrote...

Vormaerin wrote...

Zoikster wrote...

There are people positing that game choices have to have impacts on the end of the game to be worthy, I disagree. Simple as that.

That's fine.  But you can't take that line and then turn around and dismiss every decision in DA2 as irrelevant.   There are lots of decisions in both games.  Both games are linear.  DA2 is slightly less linear, because more of your decisions are reflected in the story.   But neither is anything remotely like a branched story, much less a sandbox.  Bioware doesn't make branched story or sandbox games.

You may prefer to decide whether Bhelen or Harrowmont is King rather than decide whether a unique magical talent like Feynriel becomes Tranquil, Abomination, or Tevinter apprentice.  Fine, but don't claim there are more decisions in DA:O, because there aren't.

You're free to think that. I just disagree w the contention that "more of the decisions are reflected in the story." That's not true at all.

Except it is. But I guess some people prefer their bugged cards at the end of the game for a decision to matter.

[Zoikster]

Zanallen wrote...

Zoikster wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

Well, it seems to me that the OP doesn't actually want a discussion. He seems to believe that his opinions are the only ones that matter and that if he isn't happy with the game, no one else should be either. Oh, and that Laidlaw is out to get him.

Doesn't help when you're hyperbolic.

What is hyperbolic about it? You are constantly dismissing the opinions of others with crap responses like "I liked it so it was impactful to me" or accusing people of saying things that they never actually said. And the whole tone of your argument seems to be that Laidlaw is purposely destroying the "record breaking" and "pedestal worthy" RPG known as DA:O.

And others are dismissing mine, it's called arguing your case/opinion. I only once accused somone of something they didn't say because I misread the word are/aren't. I acknowledged the mistake; unlike others. The fanboys are constantly puting words into my mouth and saying things I've never said or implied to get a point across. And to be honest, I don't care if you dislike the tone of my argument. Other threads are that way >>>

Modifié par Zoikster, 14 août 2011 - 10:53 .

[Zoikster]

Aeowyn wrote...

Zoikster wrote...

Vormaerin wrote...

Zoikster wrote...

There are people positing that game choices have to have impacts on the end of the game to be worthy, I disagree. Simple as that.

That's fine.  But you can't take that line and then turn around and dismiss every decision in DA2 as irrelevant.   There are lots of decisions in both games.  Both games are linear.  DA2 is slightly less linear, because more of your decisions are reflected in the story.   But neither is anything remotely like a branched story, much less a sandbox.  Bioware doesn't make branched story or sandbox games.

You may prefer to decide whether Bhelen or Harrowmont is King rather than decide whether a unique magical talent like Feynriel becomes Tranquil, Abomination, or Tevinter apprentice.  Fine, but don't claim there are more decisions in DA:O, because there aren't.

You're free to think that. I just disagree w the contention that "more of the decisions are reflected in the story." That's not true at all.

Except it is. But I guess some people prefer their bugged cards at the end of the game for a decision to matter.

Saying it doesn't make it so. Sorry.

[Monica21]

hoorayforicecream wrote...
The thing is that compared to the rest, the other skills are mostly worthless. So you can *choose* not to pick Coercion, but that's like saying "I can choose to walk 10 miles to work instead of drive". You could, but that's not going to stop most people from driving.

I understand the point you're making and I think we mostly agree, but I'm simply in favor of having skill trees available for the purpose of player character development. I don't like playing someone else's character, I like playing mine. I can say that my character makes poisons or traps or whatever because that's how I built her, and not because Bioware decided that's what she'll be good at, and oh by the way, just order potions from this table here because not enough people created potions.

[Zanallen]

Zoikster wrote...

And others are dismissing mine, it's called arguing your case/opinion. I only once accused somone of something they didn't say because I misread the word are/aren't. I acknowledged the mistake; unlike others. The fanboys are constantly puting words into my mouth and saying things I've never said or implied to get a point across. And to be honest, I don't care if you dislike the tone of my argument. Other threads are that way >>>

Lol, you aren't arguing a damn thing. You are saying "I'm right and you're wrong. Deal with it." You offer no actual facts or even a true platform for discussion. And any time someone actually tries to refute you, you respond with "No, you're wrong."

[KnightofPhoenix]

Aeowyn wrote...

Except it is. But I guess some people prefer their bugged cards at the end of the game for a decision to matter.

No Bioware game I played had any choice that actually mattered.

What I can say for Origins is that it had choices that interest me more. Other than Feynriel, I really do not remember any choice in DA2 that I gave a damn about. Of course that is subjective.

[Morroian]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

I feel it takes away from the role playing if it is really the only choice. If not many people used them, there's less reason to spend developer time doing that than other things, and given the amount of time they had with DA2, it's "skills" or "something else", and they chose "something else".

This.

If they do its got to be meaningful and there has to be choice between several options in terms of role playing, like how say Fallout New Vegas does it. its not meaningful in DAO because there is essentially no choice involved, no give and take. If they implement a more complex system there's a chance its going to take away from something else like say the party interaction or the tactical combat, stuff which Bioware games have which not many other games have. 

[Zoikster]

Zanallen wrote...

Zoikster wrote...

And others are dismissing mine, it's called arguing your case/opinion. I only once accused somone of something they didn't say because I misread the word are/aren't. I acknowledged the mistake; unlike others. The fanboys are constantly puting words into my mouth and saying things I've never said or implied to get a point across. And to be honest, I don't care if you dislike the tone of my argument. Other threads are that way >>>

Lol, you aren't arguing a damn thing. You are saying "I'm right and you're wrong. Deal with it." You offer no actual facts or even a true platform for discussion. And any time someone actually tries to refute you, you respond with "No, you're wrong."

What have you argued? All I see are some fanboys that have convinced themselves that somehow DA 2 was changed for the better. Reality check, sales would indidcate otherwise. Or are the sales numbers a big conspiracy theory too?

Modifié par Zoikster, 14 août 2011 - 11:00 .

[Zoikster]

PresidentCowboy wrote...

With the exception of the OP's posts this has been a very interesting thread and some good points are being made all around.

It's ok, I wasn't much fond of yours either.

[Bryy_Miller]

Zoikster wrote...
Reality check

This right here is your problem. You, as others have said, are just dismissing other people's opinions as wrong.

[Zanallen]

Monica21 wrote...

I understand the point you're making and I think we mostly agree, but I'm simply in favor of having skill trees available for the purpose of player character development. I don't like playing someone else's character, I like playing mine. I can say that my character makes poisons or traps or whatever because that's how I built her, and not because Bioware decided that's what she'll be good at, and oh by the way, just order potions from this table here because not enough people created potions.

I would agree, if the skills actually had a real purpose in the game. If it was something like the skills in KotOR or Fallout, then it would be cool and they would serve a purpose. KotOR was fun because you could build up a certain skill and they would actually provide real, tangible benefits (Hacking computers to wipe out enemy groups, reprograming droids to aid you, slicing compartments for looting, steathing ahead to lay mines or, in KotOR 2, using mines to blow open certain containers).

[Zanallen]

Zoikster wrote...

What have you argued? All I see are some fanboys that have convinced themselves that somehow DA 2 was changed for the better. Reality check, sales would indidcate otherwise. Or are the sales numbers a big conspiracy theory too?

Case in point.

[Zoikster]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

Zoikster wrote...
Reality check

This right here is your problem. You, as others have said, are just dismissing other people's opinions as wrong.

And you aren't dismissing mine as wrong. Am I missing something?

[Aeowyn]

Zoikster wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

Zoikster wrote...

And others are dismissing mine, it's called arguing your case/opinion. I only once accused somone of something they didn't say because I misread the word are/aren't. I acknowledged the mistake; unlike others. The fanboys are constantly puting words into my mouth and saying things I've never said or implied to get a point across. And to be honest, I don't care if you dislike the tone of my argument. Other threads are that way >>>

Lol, you aren't arguing a damn thing. You are saying "I'm right and you're wrong. Deal with it." You offer no actual facts or even a true platform for discussion. And any time someone actually tries to refute you, you respond with "No, you're wrong."

What have you argued? All I see are some fanboys that have convinced themselves that somehow DA 2 was changed for the better. Reality check, sales would state otherwise.

Oh look, this statement again. Just because some of us like DA2 it does not mean that we are "fanboys". And honestly, idgaf about sales. Some of us actually prefer to judge something without taking a look at what the majority thinks. 

[Zoikster]

Zanallen wrote...

Zoikster wrote...

What have you argued? All I see are some fanboys that have convinced themselves that somehow DA 2 was changed for the better. Reality check, sales would indidcate otherwise. Or are the sales numbers a big conspiracy theory too?

Case in point.

Where's the substance? I've noted your one-liners.

[Zoikster]

Aeowyn wrote...

Zoikster wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

Zoikster wrote...

And others are dismissing mine, it's called arguing your case/opinion. I only once accused somone of something they didn't say because I misread the word are/aren't. I acknowledged the mistake; unlike others. The fanboys are constantly puting words into my mouth and saying things I've never said or implied to get a point across. And to be honest, I don't care if you dislike the tone of my argument. Other threads are that way >>>

Lol, you aren't arguing a damn thing. You are saying "I'm right and you're wrong. Deal with it." You offer no actual facts or even a true platform for discussion. And any time someone actually tries to refute you, you respond with "No, you're wrong."

What have you argued? All I see are some fanboys that have convinced themselves that somehow DA 2 was changed for the better. Reality check, sales would state otherwise.

Oh look, this statement again. Just because some of us like DA2 it does not mean that we are "fanboys". And honestly, idgaf about sales. Some of us actually prefer to judge something without taking a look at what the majority thinks. 

I also like it, but I won't argue that DA 2 is somehow better. It's every bit as flawed as the original.

[Aeowyn]

Zoikster wrote...

Aeowyn wrote...

Zoikster wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

Zoikster wrote...

And others are dismissing mine, it's called arguing your case/opinion. I only once accused somone of something they didn't say because I misread the word are/aren't. I acknowledged the mistake; unlike others. The fanboys are constantly puting words into my mouth and saying things I've never said or implied to get a point across. And to be honest, I don't care if you dislike the tone of my argument. Other threads are that way >>>

Lol, you aren't arguing a damn thing. You are saying "I'm right and you're wrong. Deal with it." You offer no actual facts or even a true platform for discussion. And any time someone actually tries to refute you, you respond with "No, you're wrong."

What have you argued? All I see are some fanboys that have convinced themselves that somehow DA 2 was changed for the better. Reality check, sales would state otherwise.

Oh look, this statement again. Just because some of us like DA2 it does not mean that we are "fanboys". And honestly, idgaf about sales. Some of us actually prefer to judge something without taking a look at what the majority thinks. 

I also like it, but I won't argue that DA 2 is somehow better. It's every bit as flawed as the original.

And that is your OPINION. Some of us prefer DA2. How about respecting that instead of dismissing those people as "fanboys"? 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Zanallen wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

I understand the point you're making and I think we mostly agree, but I'm simply in favor of having skill trees available for the purpose of player character development. I don't like playing someone else's character, I like playing mine. I can say that my character makes poisons or traps or whatever because that's how I built her, and not because Bioware decided that's what she'll be good at, and oh by the way, just order potions from this table here because not enough people created potions.

I would agree, if the skills actually had a real purpose in the game. If it was something like the skills in KotOR or Fallout, then it would be cool and they would serve a purpose. KotOR was fun because you could build up a certain skill and they would actually provide real, tangible benefits (Hacking computers to wipe out enemy groups, reprograming droids to aid you, slicing compartments for looting, steathing ahead to lay mines or, in KotOR 2, using mines to blow open certain containers).

Agreed, I thought Kotor did it really well. Skills were applied much more often in the game. In Kotor 2, I remember one part where you can use stealth to spy on one conversation too.

I think Slim Couldry's quests could be something they can expand on. For instance one quest had you use poison to either knock unconscious or kill the noble you want to steal. Stealing, coercion and stealth were also implemented. More quests like that would go a long way to making them more relevant.

And perhaps with better map and terrain design, stealth and traps could also be better implemented in combat itself.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 14 août 2011 - 11:09 .