628 réponses à ce sujet

[bEVEsthda]

Well, many of the changes to DA was probably made to try to come up with a formula that was more economic, developmentwise.  And many of these failed horribly I think. That does not mean that some kind of changes into that direction won't ultimately be necessary. And could be acceptable.  

I also agree that Bioware is on wrong track if they think RPGs need to be more "welcoming" to get into. Even old BG had an excellent tutorial and many games have that. That's good enough. Focus on a decent tutorial-opening. The game does not have to shout "- watch what a cool action game this is", DA2 opening style. (and how was that supposed to be less imposing?)

There are a lot of other changes that I suspect were simply because the developers "wanted" those for their own personal taste or their own relationship to the DA2 story and characters and imposing those on the player. In this regard I suspect DA2 is a major failure. I don't think people appreciate this taste at all. But again, it could just be a lame excuse, and it could be about economizing again (party members armour, for instance).

[Bryy_Miller]

Yrkoon wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

He said he wants to keep the complexity, but build up to it. Thus making the game more accessible. It would start out relatively simple and then build up on it to create a fairly complex game.

What does that even mean?

 That  the elusive "new crowd" that quits after  an hour due to the complexity, will now play for 5 hours before quitting due to the complexity? 

Every good game does this.

Take Mario as an example.

[Lord Gremlin]

Ok, all hope is lost.
A good RPG of this type must be imposing to new players. What must be done in this day in age though is inclusion of a very elaborate tutorial. But Laidlaw is not going to make detailed tutorial to help people understand the game, he's all for dumbing down the game itself.

[Melca36]

While I may not always agree with some of Mr Laidlaw's posts...I do think we have to realize that a great many of today's gamers are want everything handed to them. We live in an instant gratification society. Advances in technology has made it that way so today's generation of gamers are not like how were are.

[devSin]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

Every good game does this.

Take Mario as an example.

You have to learn to run before you can jump into the pipe!

Modifié par devSin, 15 août 2011 - 01:04 .

[Lord Gremlin]

Melca36 wrote...

While I may not always agree with some of Mr Laidlaw's posts...I do think we have to realize that a great many of today's gamers are want everything handed to them. We live in an instant gratification society. Advances in technology has made it that way so today's generation of gamers are not like how were are.

Consider success of Demon's Souls then. An extremely unfriendly game. If you fail, it gets harder and harder until you get better. Or give up. So, I'd rather say that there are different demographics, there are those who want instant gratification (ugh, people who ruin modern society) and those who appreciate robust, elaborate and clever challenge that makes gratification truly sweet. Also, putting that aside, there are fans of different genres. There is a reason why God of War 3 was still a slasher, for example.

[Addai]

Pzykozis wrote...

I'd say skills were fairly busted [coercion lulwut? Need arbitrary point to be able to speak in a persuasive manner, tactics needing points... really?] (and Arcane warriors... and rogues and warriors using the same dual wield abilities), but I bet a lot of people would beg to differ. Shame that, you should become my mindless minions and we'd create a better world for all or atleast myself, or something [I'm just joking.. kinda-ish].

Busted things that aren't in the second game... seems to fall in line with what he said, obviously I can't speak for him but y'know, Origins was great, but there were worthless [pretty much all of the crafting] / broken things in there, whether they should have been improved [crafting is better now or well... more useful anyway] or removed is a different story though I guess.

Speak for yourself, dude.

[Lord Gremlin]

Priceless comment by someone nicknamed Ash88, just follow OP link:
"I'm so tired of this cliche. Know your audience dammit. Know your audience and deliver to them. How basic is that? How many times has it been learned?


If you want to make some game for the masses then do it. If you are going to make a game for your core fans then do it. Stop pretending that you can be all things to all people. Know your audience.


Where can I find a game company that makes games for me?"

The reason for DA2 hate is that it doesn't appeal to any somewhat wide audience. Accept it Laidlaw, you can't appeal to casual masses and hardcore RPG fans. It is impossible, like appealing to Jewish people and antisemitists at the same time: you'll just ****** off both factions.

Modifié par Lord Gremlin, 15 août 2011 - 01:14 .

[andraip]

Aeowyn wrote...

Agreed. I liked the Slim Couldry quest line, but it was a shame that you could only get it as a rogue.

The Slim Couldry quest line is rogue only? I managed to get it with my 2h warrior...

@OP this is a bit out of context, while I read Mike Laidlaw's post I never got the feeling that he said that DAO was busted.

[jds1bio]

Lord Gremlin wrote...

Priceless comment by someone nicknamed Ash88, just follow OP link:
"I'm so tired of this cliche. Know your audience dammit. Know your audience and deliver to them. How basic is that? How many times has it been learned?


If you want to make some game for the masses then do it. If you are going to make a game for your core fans then do it. Stop pretending that you can be all things to all people. Know your audience.


Where can I find a game company that makes games for me?"
.

I wouldn't call that comment priceless at all.  "Where can I find a game company that makes games for me?"  Give me a break, no one makes games specifically for you.  They make games they want to make, and for those looking to make a profit off of their games, they hope the game sells well.

The only company that will make a game for you is the company that you create yourself.  Try it - it may end up working out for Curt Schilling.  I'd be interested in knowing the details behind your game, perhaps others will want to play it.

Modifié par jds1bio, 15 août 2011 - 01:42 .

[Darth Krytie]

andraip wrote...

Aeowyn wrote...

Agreed. I liked the Slim Couldry quest line, but it was a shame that you could only get it as a rogue.

The Slim Couldry quest line is rogue only? I managed to get it with my 2h warrior...

@OP this is a bit out of context, while I read Mike Laidlaw's post I never got the feeling that he said that DAO was busted.

You needed points in stealth and/or steal to get one or both.

[willholt]

Salaya wrote...

So, returnign to the point of this thread...

I do not see any problem in making a game more accesible to wider audience. It's great But Dragon Age Origins was already a game that satisfied lots of audiences, no? Sales justify that statement. The changes implemented in DA2 had the contrary effect: it sold worse. So? maybe you need to implement changes better. Or maybe -just maybe- you need to accept that classic CRPG as conceived in Origins is not as bad for wider audiences as you think.

By the way: is really necessary to state that fans of origins are wrong to believe that was a great game? I know. He is only saying that the game needed changes. But that tone... it was really the most appropiate thing to do? Whenever I read this press/interviews I think that the new devs for DA franchise see us (fans of Origins) as some kind of weird, elite players who don't want changes.

There are many, too many, changes in DA2 that do not fall in the "wide audience" category. Changes that are, plain and simple, bad dev moves.

It is better that players are unable to swap weapons? It was worse when players could equip any Playable Character with any weapons/armor? It is better that companions could only start chats within the hubs? It was worse that players were able to start lots of different prologues? It is better that quests items do not show in menu? It was worse that the PC version had tactical camera? It is better that enemies pop from nowhere? It was worse that we were able to have impact on main quests decisions? It is better that we do not have any dialog skills to improve? It was worse that rogues were capable of setting up traps? It is better that facts contradict the codex? It was worse to play within different, not re-used, enviroments?

Sigh.

What a wonderful post!! ... Quoted because it deserves to be seen by a few more people before it vanishes under  a sea of 'DAO sucks, no DA2 sucks' posts.

You summed up my thoughts perfectly

I've played DAO several times, though only actually finished it once.... Reason for this is cause I'm running it with about 70 different mods, some of which extend the gameplay substiantly. Sometimes RL dictates I have to stop playing it for a while, and when I return to it I always feel like restarting it, rather than trying to pick up. Recently I made a conscious effort to stick to the core game and finished it.... a wonderful WONDERFUL ending to a superb game.

I've just started another DAO game, and loving every minute. I'm sure I'll be replaying DAO for a long time, and will probably manage to finish one or two more runthroughs.... To be honest, I love the game enough that I find the journey is more important than actually getting to the destination.

Which brings me to DA2.... I bought it on release, played it for a few hours and stopped in sheer frustration at the gameplay I was experiencing. Hated the companion armour decision, disliked not being able to talk to companions at will, could not believe the look of the new elves, the circus acrobatics in combat, the waves, etc etc

Having recently discovered a companion armour mod on Nexus, I tried another runthrough... With one of my frustrations with the game removed I managed to plough through the game to the end... and what an end it was too.

As a gaming experience it was somewhat mediocre. I bought Legacy on release and found it somewhat better than the core DA2 game... but what it boils down to, without mods I  would not have played either.

DAO busted?.... Naaagh .... Loads of room for improvement?... Yep sure... but BUSTED?... No way.

DA2 is busted, IMO... I really can't imagine replaying the main game... Just the thought of having to plough through wave after wave of filler combat puts an end to that idea straight away. I might buy the next story DLC if/when it's released, just to see where the franchise is heading. Legacy gave me some hope, but let's see.


Now back to DAO 

[Bryy_Miller]

People are nitpicking words and attributing ipso-facto meanings to the phrases they are attached to.

This is the thread's main problem, I believe.

[Zhijn]

jds1bio wrote...

Lord Gremlin wrote...

Priceless comment by someone nicknamed Ash88, just follow OP link:
"I'm so tired of this cliche. Know your audience dammit. Know your audience and deliver to them. How basic is that? How many times has it been learned?


If you want to make some game for the masses then do it. If you are going to make a game for your core fans then do it. Stop pretending that you can be all things to all people. Know your audience.


Where can I find a game company that makes games for me?"
.

I wouldn't call that comment priceless at all.  "Where can I find a game company that makes games for me?"  Give me a break, no one makes games specifically for you.  They make games they want to make, and for those looking to make a profit off of their games, they hope the game sells well.

The only company that will make a game for you is the company that you create yourself.  Try it - it may end up working out for Curt Schilling.  I'd be interested in knowing the details behind your game, perhaps others will want to play it.

Sorta true but not entirely. There are still companies who stick what they do best and who know their audience, Valve, Bethesda and CD project Red just to name a couple.

Sure a company that want to branche out and try new things, and reach out to more players is all fine and dandy. But to do it on a already well established game franchise with a large fanbase to near unrecognisable, well thats bloody risky if not abit foolish. I think more skeptics will born of such attempts then anything else.

To this day im still trying to understand what exactly their goal with DA2 was. Who exactly was this game aimed for?.

[dheer]

MorrigansLove wrote...
www.youtube.com/watch
Guys, guys, stop the useless arguing and watch this video!

That was great.

Modifié par dheer, 15 août 2011 - 02:37 .

[WhiteKnyght]

Zoikster wrote...

 Laidlaw: “If I’m going to ****** you guys off, it’s going to be because I still firmly believe that RPGs do need to be more accessible to new players,” Laidlaw adds. “Not diminished, but made less imposing and less terrifying to new players. In part because I want more people to play Dragon Age, and in part because there have been a lot of improvements in gameplay and UI design in the past 15 years, and we can learn from them.”

And this bit.

 “I’ve said it before, and I will say it again: we stripped some stuff out of DA becuase it was busted”

Exactly what was busted? I'd love some clarification. What exactly was so "imposing" about DA:O? I introducted several people to it who weren't familiar with the RPG genre who absolutely loved it; and hated DA 2. A lot of casual types adored the game. Laidlaw has made some serious miscalculations here.I just can't wrap my mind around his throught process except to think that EA says to dumb the game down to try and draw a larger audience. Which obviously would/has backfired. Can we at least stop blaming DA 2 problems on Origins?

Here is the link

Sorry, just had to vent. 

I think what he meant is that they don't want to rehash Origins for DAII. Awakening was already a rehashed sequel.

Also I prefer DAII's fighting style over Origins. You have a great deal more control over the player character, basic magic attacks no longer suck, and mage mighting in general looks way cooler.

Also to be blunt. If you don't like the direction Dragon Age is headed in. The door is right over there. ->

[goofyomnivore]

Dragon Age 2 took at best a lateral step in the franchise, and I would argue Dragon Age 2 is far more busted than Origins. Don't get me wrong Origins has it's flaws, but they aren't as glaring as Dragon Age 2's. IMO, Dragon Age 2 had better highs and lower lows. Origins was a more consistent game if that makes any sense. I just hope they work out the negatives, build momentum on the positives, and polish their next game. I believe Dragon Age 2 could of been great if given 6-12 more months.

Modifié par strive, 15 août 2011 - 02:42 .

[Vormaerin]

I thought the combat and talent system were a lot better, loved the voiced protagonist, and the rivalry/friendship options for companions. I also liked that Hawke felt more like a real person than a force of nature. I'm tired of every story being about an epic hero who appoints kings, slays gods, and is completely interchangeable.

I would like a game with skills that matter and alternate ways to solve problems even beyond different dialogue choices. The original Deus Ex is awesome in this regards. The story was linear, but you could overcome each zone by a variety of methods depending on the skills and abilities you'd taken.

There were obvious issues with the polish on the game. The item delivery quests weren't finished properly and the area re-use wasn't as well hidden as it usually is. I'm very glad they changed the artwork on the darkspawn in legacy. I didn't like the version in DA2.

Overall, though, I'd much rather see a more polished version of DA2 than a return to DAO style.

[In Exile]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
And maybe it's just me, but my character making his own poisons, discovering recipees and such, added to the experience. It felt like he wasn't just a killing machine with no brain.

That only works for me when it matters. In DA:O, using poisons at all instead of having my portable nukes (i.e. the mages) do all the fighting seemed particularly stupid, since you never needed to raise a hand with mages about. 

It's different in a game like TW or TW2, where potions and poisons and oils etc. matter fundamentally to combat. 

[Cutlass Jack]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Also to be blunt. If you don't like the direction Dragon Age is headed in. The door is right over there. ->

Hey! that's not a door...its just a concrete slab!

[In Exile]

Hatchetman77 wrote...
Somebody never played a Dalish Elf rogue with maxed out stealth skills who would scout ahead and set traps, then pull and herd enemies into said traps.  I dedicated a whole playthrough to this with completly different combat tactics than in previous playthroughs with toons with other skills. I also had a blast doing it. 

The skills weren't necessary but damn they were fun to tinker and play with.

Unless you play on nightmare, in which case it becomes a grind. 

Not to say that traps aren't really good fun when they're implemented well (I did a trap only TW2 hard playthrough and it was great fun). But DA:O's trap system sucked. Low damage, high cost to manufacture, no recycables as I recall... it's basically a chore, unless you tone down the difficulty. 

[In Exile]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Yes.

I suggest having "dream quests" for mages, with a single demon stalking us throughout the game. That way, it would feel less like our mages have plot armor and that we are actual mages. And more fun all around.

And this was how I thought DA:O was supposed to work, a long time ago. We were supposed to have a nemesis for each character. Remember the pride demon in the mage origin? That was, at one point in dev. I am willing to bet it was likely our personal demon, part of the nemesis arc.

Part of the reasons I dislike the origins in DA:O was cause I followed the development and know what they could have been, and what we got instead. 

[devSin]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Hey! that's not a door...its just a concrete slab!

I like how, in some of the places they tried to actually use it as a door, it retracts upward into a wall model that's not thick enough to fully conceal it and it partially clips out the freaking wall.

That's quality, ladies and gentlemen!