628 réponses à ce sujet

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Zoikster wrote...

Exactly what was busted?

Plenty of stuff didn't work properly in DA:O, or could have worked better. I still prefer that game to DA2, but that doesn't mean Bioware isn't allowed to fix what they thought was wrong.

I just wish they didn't strip stuff that wasn't busted (like item descriptions). It's hella easy to connect the dots from what the devs say and come to the (possibly incorrect) conclusion that stuff like item descriptions were stripped because they were deemed imposing to new players, then go on to an additional assumption that 'too much text', even incidental text people don't have to read to play the game, is too daunting. Which bodes not well to people like me who love to read, since it sounds like the games won't go back to being text-heavy if that sort of thing is scary to RPG newbies.

Anyway, I don't agree with everything Laidlaw says, but didn't find anything frustrating in the OP comments quoted. I remain worried that a conscious effort to attract non-RPGers to the genre may mean the sacrifice of more RPG elements, and the introduction of other elements I am not keen on or simply can't play (eg. FPS - gives me motion sickness), but I think anyone with a favourite genre would be protective of it changing too much lest it cease being what we love.

I think the devs are well aware of this, but we'll see what the future holds for Bioware RPGs I guess.

[In Exile]

Yrkoon wrote...
What does that even mean?

It means, for example, that instead of having to level up and point one of 3 points into 3 poorly explained attributes with no tooltips that only see significant effects after 10 levels with no option to respec and lots of useless trap abilities, the game eases you into concepts like "leveling up" and builds an intuition of what each statistic actually does, so that players can learn without having to go out of their way to learn. 

That's what it means. 

That  the elusive "new crowd" that quits after  an hour due to the complexity, will now play for 5 hours before quitting due to the complexity?

The argument is that most games are getting a lot of RPG in them, so players have an intuition about creating characters, upgrading skills and getting new gear.... and a real RPG (versus say a game with RPG elements) could draw all of that crowd in for both huge profit & longevity.

Mike Laidlaw is the master of stating Ideals that sound great in theory.   But what he's actually saying makes no sense in application. 

No, it makes perfect sense in application. It's just not being applied. Or applied badly. Take your pick. 

[Jamesnew2]

LobselVith8 wrote...
 I don't think anyone should expect anything similar to Origins to ever surface from Bioware.

Not a fair point but i guess your just angry... Bioware are very very good at making games.

[In Exile]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...
I just wish they didn't strip stuff that wasn't busted (like item descriptions). It's hella easy to connect the dots from what the devs say and come to the (possibly incorrect) conclusion that stuff like item descriptions were stripped because they were deemed imposing to new players, then go on to an additional assumption that 'too much text', even incidental text people don't have to read to play the game, is too daunting. Which bodes not well to people like me who love to read, since it sounds like the games won't go back to being text-heavy if that sort of thing is scary to RPG newbies.

I think they went with "item descriptions seem pretty stupid," which was always my position. It makes absolutely no sense for generic trash items to actually have a description (do you get a description of a Ralph Lauren Polo when you buy it?).

As for 'legendary' items, those do have descriptions in the codex. 

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

In Exile wrote...

I think they went with "item descriptions seem pretty stupid," which was always my position. It makes absolutely no sense for generic trash items to actually have a description (do you get a description of a Ralph Lauren Polo when you buy it?).

You can't really compare a digital game item, particularly a digital game item with a generic icon, with a real world physical item.

I don't think item descriptions are *necessary*; I think they are *nice*. They add to the lore of the land, and I've gotten quite a few nice little details out of reading DA:O item descriptions--even from items that are mundane.

As for 'legendary' items, those do have descriptions in the codex. 

They have histories, which is not always the same as descriptions.

[Il Divo]

In Exile wrote...

I think they went with "item descriptions seem pretty stupid," which was always my position. It makes absolutely no sense for generic trash items to actually have a description (do you get a description of a Ralph Lauren Polo when you buy it?).

As for 'legendary' items, those do have descriptions in the codex. 

It depends on the type of description. I like it when the game attempts to explain what exactly your character is sees/feels/observes from the item, since the player's ability to do so is limited.

[devSin]

Il Divo wrote...

It depends on the type of description. I like it when the game attempts to explain what exactly your character is sees/feels/observes from the item, since the player's ability to do so is limited.

With the way a lot of these items look, is that really something you want to see? Really?

"This is a big sword. And I mean big. How do you expect to fit through the doorway, Conan?

It also smells as bad as it looks. And given how it looks, that means baby farts times a thousand."

Modifié par devSin, 15 août 2011 - 04:09 .

[Il Divo]

devSin wrote...

With the way a lot of these items look, is that really something you want to see? Really?

"This is a big sword. And I mean big. How do you expect to fit through the doorway, Conan?

It also smells as bad as it looks. And given how it looks, that means baby farts times a thousand."

Hmm, speaking plainly you bring up a fair point. I guess I didn't think that one through enough.

[In Exile]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...
You can't really compare a digital game item, particularly a digital game item with a generic icon, with a real world physical item.

I'm just talking about sense. To me, an item description doesn't make sense.

Where does it come from? How does the PC know it? If it comes from a merchant, why can't the merchant give you the description in game (as more show and less tell)?

I don't think item descriptions are *necessary*; I think they are *nice*. They add to the lore of the land, and I've gotten quite a few nice little details out of reading DA:O item descriptions--even from items that are mundane.

Lore is good, and I support lore... but I like lore presented in-game. It's why I really hate codices. They're just info dumps. I would rather encounter this information directly.

They have histories, which is not always the same as descriptions.

The descriptions are histories. Check DA:O. 

[Firky]

In Exile wrote...
I'm just talking about sense. To me, an item description doesn't make sense.

Where does it come from? How does the PC know it? If it comes from a merchant, why can't the merchant give you the description in game (as more show and less tell)?

Item descriptions are RPG. (For me, it's that simple. And I miss them a lot.)

I copy pasted this below, but I tried it from memory first. (I was out by about 10 words.)

"Carsomyr is a weapon of legend, perhaps one of the most powerful blades ever forged on Faerun, though its origin and history is thought purposefully forgotten, such that the sword itself never overshadow the importance of the struggles that must be fought today. It is infused with the very essence of virtue, and requires as much from any paladin that would hope to wield it. The evils of the Realms must truly stand aside when this weapon is brought to bear, their magic dispelled with a word, steadfastly resisted with ease. Carsomyr also harbors a special distaste for the forces of evil and chaos, and such creatures must fear additional damage from its touch in battle."

Modifié par Firky, 15 août 2011 - 04:52 .

[In Exile]

Firky wrote...
Item descriptions are RPG. (For me, it's that simple. And I miss them a lot.)  

Doesn't make them less incoherent. Just means an RPG has incoherent things.

[Firky]

@InExile I totally agree.

(Incoherent perhaps, but important - to a certain type of RPG fan.)

On topic, I don't see how item descriptions are inconsistent with providing an "accessible" experience, though. Surely that's more through introduction of content, like having abilities available in a sensible order, learning how to fight a few enemy types at a time, etc.

Would the old school BG style of item description be inconsistent with DAII? Maybe. (I probably read 70% of the bits of lore delivered in DAII, much as I loved the game. It just wasn't structured so I was particularly interested.) You could definitely argue that it's not worth the time of the writers to create these little bits of lore, too.

But, for me, what's missing is the "reward" for killing Firkraag, for example. Not everyone killed Firkraag in BG2 (I didn't for the first 3 playthrus or so.) After eventually doing it, I got 100 words of reward. Within the context of the way it was presented in BG, lore was a treat. You didn't have to engage with it, or attach it any particular importance, but I'm sure lots of people did.

Modifié par Firky, 15 août 2011 - 05:22 .

[Satyricon331]

In Exile wrote...
I'm just talking about sense. To me, an item description doesn't make sense.

Where does it come from? How does the PC know it? If it comes from a merchant, why can't the merchant give you the description in game (as more show and less tell)?

If item descriptions are "incoherent" as you say, then there is a very low standard for incoherence.  It's perfectly coneivable that Thedas' merchants include such documents with many items they sell - and I for one think it'd be very tedious to have the game "show" you all the item descriptions, and similarly for all the information in the codex.  You're free to prefer otherwise, of course, but you're overstating it when you say it's incoherent or doesn't make sense.  I'd agree there's often some gameplay-story segregation, as when you get the description when you loot the item rather than when you bring the looted item to a lore authority, but that segregation is incredibly minor compared to story-gameplay segregation that went on in, say, DA2.

____

As for the main topic, I'd prefer them to include a tutorial if they're really that worried about accessibility.  Many successful, complex games have them (see Civ), and DA2's beginning, which was close to a forced tutorial, wasn't remotely enjoyable for me.

[Yrkoon]

I'm somewhat taken back that there's actually people here arguing against item descriptions. Especially when it comes to  magic items. Even aside from the fact that item descriptions *alone* solve the problem of a game boring you to tears with souless, generic, mass produced loot (oh look, I just found my 30th Ornate ring!), They also add flavor and lore to any RPG. When you find that sword that an ancient Hero wielded in that very same part of the world you're in, to vanquish an ancient evil that turned that very area into a ruin... that Ties your character to the game world. You become  the next in  an historic, and sometimes documented  timeline of people who have wielded that weapon.  You can look back later and say:  Aha, I  found this sword in That dungeon.   it matters.

And Item descriptions are what you remember about an RPG 10 years later, when you've forgotten everything else about the game. Someone mentioned Carsomyr. That's a good example. Another one is Pale Justice from Icewind Dale.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 15 août 2011 - 05:54 .

[Firky]

Yrkoon wrote...

You become  the next in  an historic, and sometimes documented  timeline of people who have wielded that weapon.  You can look back later and say:  Aha, I  found this sword in That dungeon.   it matters.

Yikes. I think you just nailed that concept. I could name a whole bunch of weapons and where I found them in RPGs past, or explain every component of Crom Faeyr and how to get it, but can't recall a single weapon in DAII. I can certainly remember yelling at the screen at the end of Shepherding Wolves, though.

I wonder if the cinematic thing stopped me from reading 30% of DAII's lore. I guess the "cinematic thing" also contributes to "accessibility", does it?

[Satyricon331]

Firky wrote...
I wonder if the cinematic thing stopped me from reading 30% of DAII's lore. I guess the "cinematic thing" also contributes to "accessibility", does it?

For me, it was just the visual appearance of the codex entries.  The black background and relatively dark font made it less readable.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

In Exile wrote...

The descriptions are histories. Check DA:O.

I think we're having a mis-communication again.

I largely agree with you on info-dump Codex entries, but I am not talking about the description of an item's history, rather a description of the item itself--what the PC can learn without metagaming.

To clarify, I mean these descriptions that you get with the item picture:

Chasind Robes: Pieced together from ragged strips of leather and adorned with the teeth and bones of animals, this robe is thoroughly frightful. It also smells strongly of tanned hides and sweat. (Description, not history.)

Ice Salve: A sticky, snow-white salve. No two particles of it are identical.

Reflection: A simple amulet with a mirrored back and an archaic symbol of the Chantry on the front. Sometimes, when gazing into the silvered backing, there are fleeting glimpses of someone else: the face is familiar, and the smile encouraging.

Twitch: While undoubtedly useful, this ring bears an unstable energy, and causes small spasms in the hand of the wearer.

It's the sort of information your character would get by looking at the item, getting a whiff of it, putting it on. In roleplaying terms, what a GM would tell you if your character took the time to examine an item. What colour is it? What is it made of? Does it make me look cool (because I can tell you now, I'm not wearing lime green boots with purple fur trim no matter HOW big an attack bonus I get).



(That said, until there is a way for item histories to be conveyed without having a Codex attached to the item like a 'Congratulations on your Epic Loot Purchase!' warranty card, I will just assume that my PC has the option of researching items in their own time because there's no other way to rationlise it currently, unless your companions have a reason to pitch in (Fenris with the Blade of Mercy, for instance)).

[Firky]

Was some of this handled by a character's "lore" skill in BG2? Like, you could only know what a high tiered item was if a party member had high lore. (Or an identify spell/scroll, or those glasses.)

[Zanallen]

I like item descriptions...Mostly because of Lunar: The Silver Star Story and their tongue in cheek item descriptions. Things like Longsword: Length really DOES matter.

[Satyricon331]

Firky wrote...
Was some of this handled by a character's "lore" skill in BG2? Like, you could only know what a high tiered item was if a party member had high lore. (Or an identify spell/scroll, or those glasses.)

Yeah, divination, lore, or a merchant.  I miss the whole divination/illusion lines of spells.

[In Exile]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...
It's the sort of information your character would get by looking at the item, getting a whiff of it, putting it on. In roleplaying terms, what a GM would tell you if your character took the time to examine an item. What colour is it? What is it made of? Does it make me look cool (because I can tell you now, I'm not wearing lime green boots with purple fur trim no matter HOW big an attack bonus I get).

I don't actually play pen & paper, so I didn't think of a GM analogy.

With the rest, isn't that something we should know based on how the item looks? Obviously we can't know the smell or feeling... but it just seems like this is a good way to set up a clash between what the engine can show and what the designers wanted.

(That said, until there is a way for item histories to be conveyed without having a Codex attached to the item like a 'Congratulations on your Epic Loot Purchase!' warranty card, I will just assume that my PC has the option of researching items in their own time because there's no other way to rationlise it currently, unless your companions have a reason to pitch in (Fenris with the Blade of Mercy, for instance)).

Or it could be your merchant telling you how awesome they are. Codex entries clearly don't make sense unless they're book entries, and that's 90% of the codex. The incoherent part, I mean. 

I think all item descriptions should be handled like Blade of Mercy.

[Yrkoon]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

(That said, until there is a way for item histories to be conveyed without having a Codex attached to the item like a 'Congratulations on your Epic Loot Purchase!' warranty card, I will just assume that my PC has the option of researching items in their own time because there's no other way to rationlise it currently, unless your companions have a reason to pitch in (Fenris with the Blade of Mercy, for instance)).

Or Varric with Bianca....

Tell me that wasn't one of the more memorable parts of Legacy, when Varric finally tells you the history behind Bianca.   It Was.  And the reason it was is because  in an RPG,  You and your weapons develop a bond.  And if its a weapon you particularly like using, you will want to know the story behind it.  How it was made... who made it,  or who used it before you.

[In Exile]

Satyricon331 wrote...
If item descriptions are "incoherent" as you say, then there is a very low standard for incoherence.

Not really. Items don't come with tag descriptions.

It's perfectly coneivable that Thedas' merchants include such documents with many items they sell

It's also conceivable that magic items telephatically transmit that information to the owner's mind, but that doesn't make it more coherent. 

And even if that were true, my point is that these descriptions should be something we get in game, like with the Blade of Mercy, not a blotch of text padded on.

- and I for one think it'd be very tedious to have the game "show" you all the item descriptions, and similarly for all the information in the codex.  You're free to prefer otherwise, of course, but you're overstating it when you say it's incoherent or doesn't make sense.  I'd agree there's often some gameplay-story segregation, as when you get the description when you loot the item rather than when you bring the looted item to a lore authority, but that segregation is incredibly minor compared to story-gameplay segregation that went on in, say, DA2.

DA2's other failings aren't relevant, though. 

As for the main topic, I'd prefer them to include a tutorial if they're really that worried about accessibility.  Many successful, complex games have them (see Civ), and DA2's beginning, which was close to a forced tutorial, wasn't remotely enjoyable for me.

The thing with a tutorial is that it always deals with learning through blocks of text. That's useless. And it's always about how to play the game, not how to deal with leveling or abilities. That's what an RPG needs. An interactive way to learn how to do RPG things, like manage inventory, loot, resistances, etc. 

Yrkoon wrote...
I'm somewhat taken back that there's actually people here arguing against item descriptions. Especially when it comes to  magic items. Even aside from the fact that item descriptions *alone* solve the problem of a game boring you to tears with souless, generic, mass produced loot (oh look, I just found my 30th Ornate ring!), They also add flavor and lore to any RPG. 

They absolutely don't (solve the problem of boring loot, that is). If it's "The Magic Staff Of Bones" that's "Made from thousands of bones of tortured chidlren" or "Ornate Lyrium Staff" it's the same thing - a disconnected box of stats that you've either looted off a corpse with no connection to what you're doing or something you've bought from a merchant.

What adds to the flavour and lore are things that are actually in the game - a great example being, again, the Blade of Mercy. That tells us about Tevinter, it leads to a conversation with a party NPC, and we even have a choice about what to do with the item that's influenced by previous in-game decisions (F/R). 

DA2 doesn't hit a lot of home runs, but that was a brilliant way to handle items, lore and descriptions. Everything should be like that.

When you find that sword that an ancient Hero wielded in that very same part of the world you're in, to vanquish an ancient evil that turned that very area into a ruin... that Ties your character to the game world.

I think it does the opposite. It separates your character from the world because you've picked an irrelevant piece of loot that's disconnected from everything you do. 

You become  the next in  an historic, and sometimes documented  timeline of people who have wielded that weapon.  You can look back later and say:  Aha, I  found this sword in That dungeon.   it matters.

Or you can look at it and say: I stole this thing from a corpse in a tomb, and for some perfectly incoherent reason it had a "Here's my history!" tag stuck to it. It makes the world contrived (how does this information even get to the player?) .

And Item descriptions are what you remember about an RPG 10 years later, when you've forgotten everything else about the game. Someone mentioned Carsomyr. That's a good example. Another one is Pale Justice from Icewind Dale.

I honestly find it a little weird that people remember item descriptions. In terms of things I remember from an RPG, item descriptions are somewhere below "colour of pillars in the dungeon" and above "number of blades of grass in total". 

[Sith Grey Warden]

In Exile wrote...

I think all item descriptions should be handled like Blade of Mercy.

Wait, maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but do you mean you want every item to have a side quest where an NPC goes into some story about the item? Doesn't that seem a bit... excessive and wasteful of resources?

[In Exile]

Yrkoon wrote...
Or Varric with Bianca....

Tell me that wasn't one of the more memorable parts of Legacy, when Varric finally tells you the history behind Bianca.   It Was.

It was a let down. The actual story, I mean.

What wasn't a let down was that we learned about Bianca... but that's because Bianca was actually a part of the game, it was part of who Varric was as opposed to crap he picked up off the floor 10 seconds ago, and it was something we could reference and interact with outside of, again, picking it off the floor in a particularly dangerous dungeon.

And the reason it was is because  in an RPG,  You and your weapons develop a bond.  And if its a weapon you particularly like using, you will want to know the story behind it.  How it was made... who made it,  or who used it before you.

That's not the same thing as having a description of stuff you pick up off the floor.