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King Minos wrote...
Laidlaw sold out his original fans for more money, someone get this man a job as a politician.
Ariella wrote...
Zoikster wrote...
Ariella wrote...
The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Ariella wrote...
In Exile wrote...
Bryy_Miller wrote...
Let's not make this a 'Brent Knowles Said' thread. There have been enough of those.
To be fair, though, when a designer quits over philosophical differences, that's a pretty big sign that there was a change in philosophy.
Also to be fair, it's hard to tell design philosophy of a series from just one game.
but.... but.... the sales numbers!
LOL! Was it Gaider or Epler who pointed out that since a lot more time and money were put into development of DAO (building the tools and engine/gaining proficiency on them/ having to bring Edge of Eternity in for console development etc) the profit margin for DAO is actually less than DA2 or something to that effect. Stan, Dave, John, Mike, if you want to correct me, feel free.
If you're saying their philosophy is to build up a big franchise with hard work, then milk off its success; I think that's obvious. Other industries do it, including movies. It's a good short-term move. Long term, not so much. Blizzard, for example, built up their franchise by rejecting that model.
Way to warp what I was saying. No, try the fact that they were developing a new franchise with a completely new engine, had to develope tools, lore, and everything that comes with a new franchise so included in the budget of DAO were the startup costs for the entire franchise, not just making one game. Thus because such start up costs aren't a part of the budget for DA2 (infrastructure basics already exist), the game can sell less, yet have a higher amount of the revenue be profit.
And you seem to have a problem with the fact that Bioware is making money doing this. That's what companies exist to do, make money. And bringing Blizzard into this... Blizzard's most successful franchise to date is WoW, which not only is subscription based, but three expansions, AND a World of Warcraft store where you can buy mounts and pets for $20 bucks a pop. Don't even try and use Blizzard as an example of not making the most out of their profits.
Ariella wrote...
King Minos wrote...
Laidlaw sold out his original fans for more money, someone get this man a job as a politician.
Get off your high horse. You didn't like the game, fine, but unless you've developed telepathy, don't try and tell us what other people are motivated by.
Modifié par DaBigDragon, 15 août 2011 - 08:23 .
Zoikster wrote...
Ariella wrote...
Zoikster wrote...
Ariella wrote...
The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Ariella wrote...
In Exile wrote...
Bryy_Miller wrote...
Let's not make this a 'Brent Knowles Said' thread. There have been enough of those.
To be fair, though, when a designer quits over philosophical differences, that's a pretty big sign that there was a change in philosophy.
Also to be fair, it's hard to tell design philosophy of a series from just one game.
but.... but.... the sales numbers!
LOL! Was it Gaider or Epler who pointed out that since a lot more time and money were put into development of DAO (building the tools and engine/gaining proficiency on them/ having to bring Edge of Eternity in for console development etc) the profit margin for DAO is actually less than DA2 or something to that effect. Stan, Dave, John, Mike, if you want to correct me, feel free.
If you're saying their philosophy is to build up a big franchise with hard work, then milk off its success; I think that's obvious. Other industries do it, including movies. It's a good short-term move. Long term, not so much. Blizzard, for example, built up their franchise by rejecting that model.
Way to warp what I was saying. No, try the fact that they were developing a new franchise with a completely new engine, had to develope tools, lore, and everything that comes with a new franchise so included in the budget of DAO were the startup costs for the entire franchise, not just making one game. Thus because such start up costs aren't a part of the budget for DA2 (infrastructure basics already exist), the game can sell less, yet have a higher amount of the revenue be profit.
And you seem to have a problem with the fact that Bioware is making money doing this. That's what companies exist to do, make money. And bringing Blizzard into this... Blizzard's most successful franchise to date is WoW, which not only is subscription based, but three expansions, AND a World of Warcraft store where you can buy mounts and pets for $20 bucks a pop. Don't even try and use Blizzard as an example of not making the most out of their profits.
Okay please stop. Where did I say I "have a problem with them making money?" I didn't say that, if you read what I said, was that model works to a point, if you're thinking short-term profit. Movies do it to their detrement all the time, as do gaming companies. Blizzards only success is not WoW, they're successful w Starcraft, and Diablo as well. Those games sequels had a lot more production time, hell Diablo is still in the works. There is a clear difference to rushing a game to cash in on the prior games success, and creating a quality follow up. Their model was real simple, they did not rush games...it was done when it was done. And drop the attitude, let's keep the discourse civil...
Ariella wrote...
Zoikster wrote...
Ariella wrote...
Zoikster wrote...
Ariella wrote...
The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Ariella wrote...
In Exile wrote...
Bryy_Miller wrote...
Let's not make this a 'Brent Knowles Said' thread. There have been enough of those.
To be fair, though, when a designer quits over philosophical differences, that's a pretty big sign that there was a change in philosophy.
Also to be fair, it's hard to tell design philosophy of a series from just one game.
but.... but.... the sales numbers!
LOL! Was it Gaider or Epler who pointed out that since a lot more time and money were put into development of DAO (building the tools and engine/gaining proficiency on them/ having to bring Edge of Eternity in for console development etc) the profit margin for DAO is actually less than DA2 or something to that effect. Stan, Dave, John, Mike, if you want to correct me, feel free.
If you're saying their philosophy is to build up a big franchise with hard work, then milk off its success; I think that's obvious. Other industries do it, including movies. It's a good short-term move. Long term, not so much. Blizzard, for example, built up their franchise by rejecting that model.
Way to warp what I was saying. No, try the fact that they were developing a new franchise with a completely new engine, had to develope tools, lore, and everything that comes with a new franchise so included in the budget of DAO were the startup costs for the entire franchise, not just making one game. Thus because such start up costs aren't a part of the budget for DA2 (infrastructure basics already exist), the game can sell less, yet have a higher amount of the revenue be profit.
And you seem to have a problem with the fact that Bioware is making money doing this. That's what companies exist to do, make money. And bringing Blizzard into this... Blizzard's most successful franchise to date is WoW, which not only is subscription based, but three expansions, AND a World of Warcraft store where you can buy mounts and pets for $20 bucks a pop. Don't even try and use Blizzard as an example of not making the most out of their profits.
Okay please stop. Where did I say I "have a problem with them making money?" I didn't say that, if you read what I said, was that model works to a point, if you're thinking short-term profit. Movies do it to their detrement all the time, as do gaming companies. Blizzards only success is not WoW, they're successful w Starcraft, and Diablo as well. Those games sequels had a lot more production time, hell Diablo is still in the works. There is a clear difference to rushing a game to cash in on the prior games success, and creating a quality follow up. Their model was real simple, they did not rush games...it was done when it was done. And drop the attitude, let's keep the discourse civil...
Drop the attitude? You've had attitude since you first posted this thread . What you said was "milk" a derogatory term for making money, especially considering nothing I said had anything to do with that. It had to do with the fact that the infrastructure to build DA2 already existed thus even if DA2 sold less it could still be a commerical success
I also didn't say that Blizzard didn't have other successful franchises, but its most successful is WoW, period.
As for Starcraft, I guess you didn't hear the screams of outrage when people were told that the different campaigns would be sold seperately. Believe me, it wasn't pretty.
But at the end of the day, Bioware's release formula and Blizzard's aren't all that different and never have been. Bioware did push DA2 back a full month, as release was supposed to be in Feburary. The second in fact.
Bioware's not trying to "milk" substandard product for all it's worth. The problem is you didn't like the game. Fine, but it doesn't mean other people didn't or can't and that the developers are trying to screw people out of money.
Modifié par Zoikster, 15 août 2011 - 08:46 .
Zoikster wrote...
Gotholhorakh wrote...
Zoikster wrote...
Laidlaw: “If I’m going to ****** you guys off, it’s going to be because I still firmly believe that RPGs do need to be more accessible to new players,” Laidlaw adds. “Not diminished, but made less imposing and less terrifying to new players. In part because I want more people to play Dragon Age, and in part because there have been a lot of improvements in gameplay and UI design in the past 15 years, and we can learn from them.”
And this bit.
“I’ve said it before, and I will say it again: we stripped some stuff out of DA becuase it was busted”
Exactly what was busted? I'd love some clarification. What exactly was so "imposing" about DA:O? I introducted several people to it who weren't familiar with the RPG genre who absolutely loved it; and hated DA 2. A lot of casual types adored the game. Laidlaw has made some serious miscalculations here.I just can't wrap my mind around his throught process except to think that EA says to dumb the game down to try and draw a larger audience. Which obviously would/has backfired. Can we at least stop blaming DA 2 problems on Origins?
Here is the link
Sorry, just had to vent.
Hm. OK, I have to tell you that I think you'll find the end result of this kind of feedback - which has been done at great length by many, many people - is going to be pretty damned unsatisfactory.
I have some respect for the way that BioWare has tried to handle the infinitesimally small slice of the backlash that has touched these forums, but in the end the message seems to be that while some small tweaks will happen, the vast majority of the stuff that people loathed about DA2 isn't going anywhere. That is the direction the games are going in, and anyone who doesn't like it can just get the hell off Cliff's bus.
...
*snip*
...if subtlety and role-play won't appeal to Joe Public, they can be dropped from the games until they are the usual sort of orgiastic, nihilistic wave-of-destruction type games that she does like, If bisexual people and "****s" drive away Joe Public, then they will eventually have to go, too, because companies can't package stuff their customers hate - however much they might like to (naively) think or say otherwise now.
It doesn't matter, the message might be, if you don't like where DA2 is going you're SOL, but there's a very easy solution to that. Chalk down the money you spent on DA2 as wasted, and keep the rest of it in your pocket.
It was me venting. That's aslo quite clear in the post.
Modifié par Gotholhorakh, 15 août 2011 - 08:53 .
Aradace wrote...
*Merrill voice* ^ Oh would you look at that? It's a pretty little pyramid.
Zoikster wrote...
The problem is, I dislike the game because it was rushed. You're free to disagree that this game wasn't rushed, l know I'm not alone in that feeling. And no, Blizzard would never release a game before it was finished. They wouldn't release a game with the same rehashed cave over and over again. They have extremely different philosophies when it comes release. I think they're trying to milk the success of DA:O, or they wouldn't have released the game in the state it was in. My opinion. So again, please keep the discourse civil. That's all I ask.
Gotholhorakh wrote...
Zoikster wrote...
Gotholhorakh wrote...
Zoikster wrote...
Laidlaw: “If I’m going to ****** you guys off, it’s going to be because I still firmly believe that RPGs do need to be more accessible to new players,” Laidlaw adds. “Not diminished, but made less imposing and less terrifying to new players. In part because I want more people to play Dragon Age, and in part because there have been a lot of improvements in gameplay and UI design in the past 15 years, and we can learn from them.”
And this bit.
“I’ve said it before, and I will say it again: we stripped some stuff out of DA becuase it was busted”
Exactly what was busted? I'd love some clarification. What exactly was so "imposing" about DA:O? I introducted several people to it who weren't familiar with the RPG genre who absolutely loved it; and hated DA 2. A lot of casual types adored the game. Laidlaw has made some serious miscalculations here.I just can't wrap my mind around his throught process except to think that EA says to dumb the game down to try and draw a larger audience. Which obviously would/has backfired. Can we at least stop blaming DA 2 problems on Origins?
Here is the link
Sorry, just had to vent.
Hm. OK, I have to tell you that I think you'll find the end result of this kind of feedback - which has been done at great length by many, many people - is going to be pretty damned unsatisfactory.
I have some respect for the way that BioWare has tried to handle the infinitesimally small slice of the backlash that has touched these forums, but in the end the message seems to be that while some small tweaks will happen, the vast majority of the stuff that people loathed about DA2 isn't going anywhere. That is the direction the games are going in, and anyone who doesn't like it can just get the hell off Cliff's bus.
...
*snip*
...if subtlety and role-play won't appeal to Joe Public, they can be dropped from the games until they are the usual sort of orgiastic, nihilistic wave-of-destruction type games that she does like, If bisexual people and "****s" drive away Joe Public, then they will eventually have to go, too, because companies can't package stuff their customers hate - however much they might like to (naively) think or say otherwise now.
It doesn't matter, the message might be, if you don't like where DA2 is going you're SOL, but there's a very easy solution to that. Chalk down the money you spent on DA2 as wasted, and keep the rest of it in your pocket.
It was me venting. That's aslo quite clear in the post.
OK, yeeeeees, I read that because it was in your post...I believe a WTF is in order.
That's why I replied to your venting of frustrations with some thoughts that came from my own, because I thought they might be relevant to how you appeared to be (said you were) feeling.
Modifié par Zoikster, 15 août 2011 - 08:56 .
Il Divo wrote...
Zoikster wrote...
The problem is, I dislike the game because it was rushed. You're free to disagree that this game wasn't rushed, l know I'm not alone in that feeling. And no, Blizzard would never release a game before it was finished. They wouldn't release a game with the same rehashed cave over and over again. They have extremely different philosophies when it comes release. I think they're trying to milk the success of DA:O, or they wouldn't have released the game in the state it was in. My opinion. So again, please keep the discourse civil. That's all I ask.
You obviously have never played World of Warcraft.
Modifié par Zoikster, 15 août 2011 - 08:57 .
Zanallen wrote...
Aradace wrote...
*Merrill voice* ^ Oh would you look at that? It's a pretty little pyramid.
It is far too lopsided to be pretty.
Zoikster wrote...
The problem is, I dislike the game because it was rushed. You're free to disagree that this game wasn't rushed, l know I'm not alone in that feeling. And no, Blizzard would never release a game before it was finished. They wouldn't release a game with the same rehashed cave over and over again. They have extremely different philosophies when it comes release. I think they're trying to milk the success of DA:O, or they wouldn't have released the game in the state it was in. My opinion. So again, please keep the discourse civil. That's all I ask.
Zoikster wrote...
Gotholhorakh wrote...
Zoikster wrote...
Gotholhorakh wrote...
Zoikster wrote...
Laidlaw: “If I’m going to ****** you guys off, it’s going to be because I still firmly believe that RPGs do need to be more accessible to new players,” Laidlaw adds. “Not diminished, but made less imposing and less terrifying to new players. In part because I want more people to play Dragon Age, and in part because there have been a lot of improvements in gameplay and UI design in the past 15 years, and we can learn from them.”
And this bit.
“I’ve said it before, and I will say it again: we stripped some stuff out of DA becuase it was busted”
Exactly what was busted? I'd love some clarification. What exactly was so "imposing" about DA:O? I introducted several people to it who weren't familiar with the RPG genre who absolutely loved it; and hated DA 2. A lot of casual types adored the game. Laidlaw has made some serious miscalculations here.I just can't wrap my mind around his throught process except to think that EA says to dumb the game down to try and draw a larger audience. Which obviously would/has backfired. Can we at least stop blaming DA 2 problems on Origins?
Here is the link
Sorry, just had to vent.
Hm. OK, I have to tell you that I think you'll find the end result of this kind of feedback - which has been done at great length by many, many people - is going to be pretty damned unsatisfactory.
I have some respect for the way that BioWare has tried to handle the infinitesimally small slice of the backlash that has touched these forums, but in the end the message seems to be that while some small tweaks will happen, the vast majority of the stuff that people loathed about DA2 isn't going anywhere. That is the direction the games are going in, and anyone who doesn't like it can just get the hell off Cliff's bus.
...
*snip*
...if subtlety and role-play won't appeal to Joe Public, they can be dropped from the games until they are the usual sort of orgiastic, nihilistic wave-of-destruction type games that she does like, If bisexual people and "****s" drive away Joe Public, then they will eventually have to go, too, because companies can't package stuff their customers hate - however much they might like to (naively) think or say otherwise now.
It doesn't matter, the message might be, if you don't like where DA2 is going you're SOL, but there's a very easy solution to that. Chalk down the money you spent on DA2 as wasted, and keep the rest of it in your pocket.
It was me venting. That's aslo quite clear in the post.
OK, yeeeeees, I read that because it was in your post...I believe a WTF is in order.
That's why I replied to your venting of frustrations with some thoughts that came from my own, because I thought they might be relevant to how you appeared to be (said you were) feeling.
Let's not rehash arguments from yesterday while the thread was getting derailed with bickering please.
Modifié par Gotholhorakh, 15 août 2011 - 09:07 .
Ariella wrote...
Zoikster wrote...
The problem is, I dislike the game because it was rushed. You're free to disagree that this game wasn't rushed, l know I'm not alone in that feeling. And no, Blizzard would never release a game before it was finished. They wouldn't release a game with the same rehashed cave over and over again. They have extremely different philosophies when it comes release. I think they're trying to milk the success of DA:O, or they wouldn't have released the game in the state it was in. My opinion. So again, please keep the discourse civil. That's all I ask.
This is me being civil as you deserve. The same rehashed cave? Did you not hear the screaming over Naxxramas being revamped and dropped into Northrend for Wrath of the Lich King? Did you not hear the abuse Blizzard took over the fact that they took such a long time to resolve the issues of Wrath Gate?
You seem to be missing my point, purposely or not, and that is EVERY company is going to find themselves with people like you who are disappointed in their product for one reason or another.
And if they were trying to milk the success of Origins, they would have just made the same thing, rather than experimenting and trying something new and different from the Bioware formula of player is a Jedi Knight/Spirit Monk/Child of Bhaal/Harper/Grey Warden and has to save the world.
I don't blame them for wanting to change the formula and do something new and more personal.
As for the rush, none of us are privy to the reasons why the game came out in eighteen months. We don't have enough information one way or the other as to what happened behind closed doors, so to impune the worst of motivations without proof is childish.
You didn't like the game, so be it, but neither that fact nor the developers comments are in any way a personel insult to you, so rather than acting like it is, try being constructive.
Gotholhorakh wrote...
Zoikster wrote...
Gotholhorakh wrote...
Zoikster wrote...
Gotholhorakh wrote...
Zoikster wrote...
Laidlaw: “If I’m going to ****** you guys off, it’s going to be because I still firmly believe that RPGs do need to be more accessible to new players,” Laidlaw adds. “Not diminished, but made less imposing and less terrifying to new players. In part because I want more people to play Dragon Age, and in part because there have been a lot of improvements in gameplay and UI design in the past 15 years, and we can learn from them.”
And this bit.
“I’ve said it before, and I will say it again: we stripped some stuff out of DA becuase it was busted”
Exactly what was busted? I'd love some clarification. What exactly was so "imposing" about DA:O? I introducted several people to it who weren't familiar with the RPG genre who absolutely loved it; and hated DA 2. A lot of casual types adored the game. Laidlaw has made some serious miscalculations here.I just can't wrap my mind around his throught process except to think that EA says to dumb the game down to try and draw a larger audience. Which obviously would/has backfired. Can we at least stop blaming DA 2 problems on Origins?
Here is the link
Sorry, just had to vent.
Hm. OK, I have to tell you that I think you'll find the end result of this kind of feedback - which has been done at great length by many, many people - is going to be pretty damned unsatisfactory.
I have some respect for the way that BioWare has tried to handle the infinitesimally small slice of the backlash that has touched these forums, but in the end the message seems to be that while some small tweaks will happen, the vast majority of the stuff that people loathed about DA2 isn't going anywhere. That is the direction the games are going in, and anyone who doesn't like it can just get the hell off Cliff's bus.
...
*snip*
...if subtlety and role-play won't appeal to Joe Public, they can be dropped from the games until they are the usual sort of orgiastic, nihilistic wave-of-destruction type games that she does like, If bisexual people and "****s" drive away Joe Public, then they will eventually have to go, too, because companies can't package stuff their customers hate - however much they might like to (naively) think or say otherwise now.
It doesn't matter, the message might be, if you don't like where DA2 is going you're SOL, but there's a very easy solution to that. Chalk down the money you spent on DA2 as wasted, and keep the rest of it in your pocket.
It was me venting. That's aslo quite clear in the post.
OK, yeeeeees, I read that because it was in your post...I believe a WTF is in order.
That's why I replied to your venting of frustrations with some thoughts that came from my own, because I thought they might be relevant to how you appeared to be (said you were) feeling.
Let's not rehash arguments from yesterday while the thread was getting derailed with bickering please.
Whuuuuu....
I wasn't arguing... I was just asking what your response (not someone else bickering) meant because it was completely unrelated to my post.
It doesn't matter, I really don't need to know enough to make 5 posts. Forget it, and stay cool.
Modifié par Zoikster, 15 août 2011 - 09:13 .
Zoikster wrote...
Il Divo wrote...
Zoikster wrote...
The problem is, I dislike the game because it was rushed. You're free to disagree that this game wasn't rushed, l know I'm not alone in that feeling. And no, Blizzard would never release a game before it was finished. They wouldn't release a game with the same rehashed cave over and over again. They have extremely different philosophies when it comes release. I think they're trying to milk the success of DA:O, or they wouldn't have released the game in the state it was in. My opinion. So again, please keep the discourse civil. That's all I ask.
You obviously have never played World of Warcraft.
I'm talking about Blizzard's single players. MMO's aren't comparable, and the same cave wasn't used throughout WoW.
Ariella wrote...
I don't blame them for wanting to change the formula and do something new and more personal.
Ariella wrote...
Zoikster wrote...
Il Divo wrote...
Zoikster wrote...
The problem is, I dislike the game because it was rushed. You're free to disagree that this game wasn't rushed, l know I'm not alone in that feeling. And no, Blizzard would never release a game before it was finished. They wouldn't release a game with the same rehashed cave over and over again. They have extremely different philosophies when it comes release. I think they're trying to milk the success of DA:O, or they wouldn't have released the game in the state it was in. My opinion. So again, please keep the discourse civil. That's all I ask.
You obviously have never played World of Warcraft.
I'm talking about Blizzard's single players. MMO's aren't comparable, and the same cave wasn't used throughout WoW.
Right.... I have a bridge to sell you.
And with the exception of Diablo which is specifically hack and slash, Blizzard doesn't make single player RPGs, they make RTS games, different market.
Haexpane wrote...
As far as defending the devs and stating they are "not trying to trick players out of money" $5.99 Weapon pack with weapons that are USELESS in the end game and gear you can not even put on companions SAYS HI!
"lol" spam FTL. Did Bioware not sell "weapon pack" DLC? Yes, yes they did.Aradace wrote...
Haexpane wrote...
As far as defending the devs and stating they are "not trying to trick players out of money" $5.99 Weapon pack with weapons that are USELESS in the end game and gear you can not even put on companions SAYS HI!
Seriously? NOW who's drank too much kool-aid? You must be high lol
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