628 réponses à ce sujet

[Atakuma]

Zoikster wrote...

No reason to get all nasty, either answer the question or don't. I never said it was perfect. I'm not anymore deadset in saying Origins is perfect as the lot of you would like to pretend DA 2 is.

What's with the strawman? No one said anything about DA2 being perfect.

[Kothoses Rothenkisal]

shadowhawk233 wrote...

Then why don't the devs come out and say, "Yes we really screwed up on Dragon Age 2, we're sorry..."

Because its whats known as a going concern.  The people who pay their wages tell them they have to keep marketing it and there isnt a lot they can do about that, atleast that would be my guess. 

While we all would like to think artistic integrity takes first place, the fact is we all have bills to pay and we have all dealt with sucky decisions from our bosses with a smile on our face.  Basically unless your the guy at the very top you sometimes have to eat your brown stuff and say "yes sir, that tasted good".

[Zoikster]

Kothoses Rothenkisal wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Darth Krytie wrote...
Actually, no. It doesn't make  my opinion of it more significant. It makes me tired of going to the Bioware forums five months after the game came out and there's still all this annoying complaining.

I never spend this much energy griping about stuff I don't like. I hated Venetica. I never bother to go whine on their forums. Instead, I play another game and move on.

I also don't sit around waiting for the Devs of the game to say something so I can deliberately take it the wrong way and call him out like I'm Anderson effing Cooper.

Well, I literally (like, an hour and a half ago) just finished my first play-through of DA2 and I was disappointed. I'm not going to keep from stating my opinion on the game because it annoys you and because the game is five months old. I'm pretty sure there's no time limit on when players get to stop expressing their opinion.

If people are "whining" it's because we see something that wasn't broken but needed a bit of refinement. We saw potential in storylines and it wasn't realized, and we saw bad paraphrases and lazy writing. If people are here expressing an opinion that you don't share it's because we still like the franchise and want the potential of it to be fully realized.

I dont think anyone is discouraging people from expressing what they liked or disliked, I think what some people are a bit weary of is how every other thread is trying to take various people to task over the dissapointment that was Dragon Age 2.

While there is no denying that the majority of Forum goers seem to be dissapointed with it, there does seem to be two camps of people expressing their displeasure.

There are people like your self who express very well thought out view points and who offer constructive feedback, and then there are people like the OP here who bulldozes in and basically insults anyone who dares to disagree with their opinion because they are angry that they plumbed money into the game.

While I can understand both frustrations I think some people on these forums who are more regular than even me are just a bit weary of the circular arguments that come up every time some one does a DA  and DA 2 thread.  While I agree there needs to be constant feedback from the Fans of Origins (I am one) there is a 100+ page constructive critique thread and a bunch of others and some people take it on them selves to simply try and funnel off those kind of debates so they dont happen in every thread (which seems to be the norm).  Now I am in no way saying that this is what you were attempting, but that is why some people respond the way they do to such debates.

The funny thing is, you don't see the irony of what you're saying. I've seen circular arguments coming from you. Like I said the feeling is mutual. And I havne't insulted anyone, I'm telling other people who're using ad-homs to attack my stance to back off. That's different.

[IRMcGhee]

Zoikster wrote...

I would give him credit if he said it was just a few things broken. But flat-out said DA:O was busted. He didn't go into specifics, which is why (if you can read) I asked for clarification.

No, he said "we stripped some stuff out of DA because it was busted". Really irritates me that everytime any of the devs say that something in DAO wasn't perfect all of a sudden its "OMG, they're trashing Origins". Not to mention the frequent "let's pick apart every utterance and twist it into something to complain about" nonsense that's been going on since DA2 was in development.

Modifié par IRMcGhee, 14 août 2011 - 08:45 .

[Kothoses Rothenkisal]

Zoikster wrote...



The funny thing is, you don't see the irony of what you're saying. I've seen circular arguments coming from you. Like I said the feeling is mutual. And I havne't insulted anyone, I'm telling other people who're using ad-homs to attack my stance to back off. That's different.

The fact you have trolled everyone who disagrees with you in this thread says all that needs to be said.  To quote Dr Ball MD, I said good day sir.

[Zoikster]

IRMcGhee wrote...

Zoikster wrote...

I would give him credit if he said it was just a few things broken. But flat-out said DA:O was busted. He didn't go into specifics, which is why (if you can read) I asked for clarification.

No, he said "some things in DAO were busted". Really irritates me that everytime any of the devs say that something in DAO wasn't perfect all of a sudden its "OMG, they're trashing Origins". Not to mention the frequent "let's pick apart every utterance and twist it into something to complain about" nonsense that's been going on since DA2 was in development.

I'm here asking for clarification on what was so busted and imposing, yet nobody here seems to be able to say it. One person disliked coersion...

Modifié par Zoikster, 14 août 2011 - 08:43 .

[Dave of Canada]

Zoikster wrote...

I'm not anymore deadset in saying Origins is perfect

No? The thread would prove itself quite contrary to that opinion, I'd think. Laidlaw has explained many times what he felt needed work in Origins. Which it seems was either glanced and quickly ignored or you didn't do any research on the subject for the sake of this thread.

as the lot of you would like to pretend DA 2 is.

I've never seen such a thing. I've only seen people admit they like DA2, never saw anybody claim it was perfect.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 14 août 2011 - 08:44 .

[Zoikster]

Kothoses Rothenkisal wrote...

Zoikster wrote...



The funny thing is, you don't see the irony of what you're saying. I've seen circular arguments coming from you. Like I said the feeling is mutual. And I havne't insulted anyone, I'm telling other people who're using ad-homs to attack my stance to back off. That's different.

The fact you have trolled everyone who disagrees with you in this thread says all that needs to be said.  To quote Dr Ball MD, I said good day sir.

The fact you equate having a differing opinion to trolling says a lot about you.

[Zoikster]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Zoikster wrote...

I'm not anymore deadset in saying Origins is perfect

No? The thread would prove itself quite contrary to that opinion, I'd think. Laidlaw has explained many times what he felt needed work in Origins. Which it seems was either glanced and quickly ignored or you didn't do any research on the subject for the sake of this thread.

as the lot of you would like to pretend DA 2 is.

I've never seen such a thing. I've only seen people admit they like DA2, never saw anybody claim it was perfect.

Nobody said DA:O was perfect either, you're just using that to justify your case. If you're going to trash the game, it's not smart to be vauge, let's see some specifics.

Modifié par Zoikster, 14 août 2011 - 08:48 .

[Dave of Canada]

Zoikster wrote...

Nobody said DA:O was perfect either, you're just using that to justify your case. Bleh.

I guess that explains why you don't see anything busted with Origins and was offended by Laidlaw's comment?

[Kothoses Rothenkisal]

Zoikster wrote...



Edit: And one more thing, expanding your audience to Laidlaw means "dumbing down" that didn't quite work out so well did it?

Putting words in peoples mouths

Zoikster wrote...

Pzykozis wrote...

I'd say skills were fairly busted [coercion lulwut? Need arbitrary point to be able to speak in a persuasive manner, tactics needing points... really?] (and Arcane warriors... and rogues and warriors using the same dual wield abilities), but I bet a lot of people would beg to differ. Shame that, you should become my mindless minions and we'd create a better world for all or atleast myself, or something [I'm just joking.. kinda-ish].

Busted things that aren't in the second game... seems to fall in line with what he said, obviously I can't speak for him but y'know, Origins was great, but there were worthless [pretty much all of the crafting] / broken things in there, whether they should have been improved [crafting is better now or well... more useful anyway] or removed is a different story though I guess.

Adding lolwut doesn't strengthen your case. I happened to like coercion.

Ignoring his point entirely

Zoikster wrote...

Darth Krytie wrote...

Zoikster wrote...

GarrusV4karian wrote...

Not these kind of threads again...

What's wrong with my thread? I vented some legitimate complaints and would love some clarification.

1. This sort of whinge-fest has been done to death and then some necromancer brought it back to life just to do it to death for a second and more annoying time.

2. I swear these threads are done because people get a thrill out of having the people you're writing about hear your insignificant opinion.

3. Origins wasn't perfect and some people played both and preferred DA2. It'd be awesome if anyone on this forums present their opinions as just that...opinions instead of touting them as fact. Fact is, not everyone will agree.

4. Get some prespective. If it were just as easy as phoning your boss and saying, "Hey, yo, give me x more months to work on this (which does, in fact, equal x more dollars to pay for it," it'd have been done. There are realities of the gaming industry which people need to accept. It costs money to make games. There are limited resources. You can't prevent 100% of bugs no matter how many QCers you use.

5. Busted might just be referring to old technology not working with the new technology. It actually has been explained before on the forums. Many times. There were aspects of the old engine that would not work well with the new one. There were things that did not transfer well. There were things they tried to improve on. Mind you, they have telemetry and data we do not to base their opinions on. And experience. And know-how. etc. etc.

The irony, because you have a positive opinion of it, let me guess that makes your opinion more significant. Let's stop attacking others for simply disagreeing.

I dont think Irony means what you think it means here.

Zoikster wrote...

Darth Krytie wrote...

Zoikster wrote...

The irony, because you have a positive opinion of it, let me guess that makes your opinion more significant. Let's stop attacking others for simply disagreeing.

Actually, no. It doesn't make my opinion of it more significant. It makes me tired of going to the Bioware forums five months after the game came out and there's still all this annoying complaining.

I never spend this much energy griping about stuff I don't like. I hated Venetica. I never bother to go whine on their forums. Instead, I play another game and move on.

I also don't sit around waiting for the Devs of the game to say something so I can deliberately take it the wrong way and call him out like I'm Anderson effing Cooper.

No you just go to their threads, derail the thread with insults, and pretend you are superior. Good for you. If you don't like it, there are other threads.

Little bit more aggression


I would go through and quote all the other posts where you basically strawman or insult people (my self included) who disagree with you. But at this point I think you are so emotionally invested in trying to make your own point you dont even see what you are doing. So I am simply going to just have to ignore you from this point outwards if you dont get it.

Having a different opinion is good, expressing it through insults derision and strawmanning is not and to be honest I think you should thank the other posters for entertaining you as long as they have.  If you really dont get the difference between expressing a view point having a rational debate and what you are doing, then I feel sorry for you actually.

You should definately watch episode 2, it would help you a lot.

Modifié par Kothoses Rothenkisal, 14 août 2011 - 08:52 .

[Zoikster]

PresidentCowboy wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I personally don't attack any of the devs (if any of my posts come off that way, I apologize because that's not the intent), but I do think much of DA's core integrity was lost in DAII. Specifically choices that don't get railroaded to the exact same ending.

DAO and DA2 had about the same ending variety imo. With DAO we had either "YAY THE WHOLE WORD IS SAVED oh but someone died" or "YAY THE WHOLE WORD IS SAVED oh but we had to conceive a sin against god demon baby to do it", compared to DA2's (SPOILERS) "yay anders started a war, time to be viscount then disappear" or "yay anders started a war, time to run away then disappear".

*SPOILERS*
There were so many more variations in DA:O you could have killed Loghaine, Kinged Alistair, make the daughter queen, keep your relationship w Alistair.  You could also get Morrigan pregnant etc.Not to mention all the different origin stories. There is just no comparison.

[Bryy_Miller]

Zoikster wrote...
 And one more thing, expanding your audience to Laidlaw means "dumbing down" that didn't quite work out so well did it? 

Ignoring people's posts in order to keep your own opinion as fact isn't really going to work out that well for you on a public forum. 

[Zoikster]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

Zoikster wrote...
 And one more thing, expanding your audience to Laidlaw means "dumbing down" that didn't quite work out so well did it? 

Ignoring people's posts in order to keep your own opinion as fact isn't really going to work out that well for you on a public forum. 

What post did I ignore, there's been a lot of posts. I'll be glad to address it.

[Zoikster]

[quote]Kothoses Rothenkisal wrote...

[quote]Zoikster wrote...



Edit: And one more thing, expanding your audience to Laidlaw means "dumbing down" that didn't quite work out so well did it?


[/quote]

Putting words in peoples mouths


[quote]Zoikster wrote...

[quote]Pzykozis wrote...

I'd say skills were fairly busted [coercion lulwut? Need arbitrary point to be able to speak in a persuasive manner, tactics needing points... really?] (and Arcane warriors... and rogues and warriors using the same dual wield abilities), but I bet a lot of people would beg to differ. Shame that, you should become my mindless minions and we'd create a better world for all or atleast myself, or something [I'm just joking.. kinda-ish].

Busted things that aren't in the second game... seems to fall in line with what he said, obviously I can't speak for him but y'know, Origins was great, but there were worthless [pretty much all of the crafting] / broken things in there, whether they should have been improved [crafting is better now or well... more useful anyway] or removed is a different story though I guess.[/quote]

Adding lolwut doesn't strengthen your case. I happened to like coercion.

[/quote]

Ignoring his point entirely


[quote]Zoikster wrote...

[quote]Darth Krytie wrote...

[quote]Zoikster wrote...

[quote]GarrusV4karian wrote...

Not these kind of threads again...[/quote]

What's wrong with my thread? I vented some legitimate complaints and would love some clarification.
[/quote]

1. This sort of whinge-fest has been done to death and then some necromancer brought it back to life just to do it to death for a second and more annoying time.

2. I swear these threads are done because people get a thrill out of having the people you're writing about hear your insignificant opinion.

3. Origins wasn't perfect and some people played both and preferred DA2. It'd be awesome if anyone on this forums present their opinions as just that...opinions instead of touting them as fact. Fact is, not everyone will agree.

4. Get some prespective. If it were just as easy as phoning your boss and saying, "Hey, yo, give me x more months to work on this (which does, in fact, equal x more dollars to pay for it," it'd have been done. There are realities of the gaming industry which people need to accept. It costs money to make games. There are limited resources. You can't prevent 100% of bugs no matter how many QCers you use.

5. Busted might just be referring to old technology not working with the new technology. It actually has been explained before on the forums. Many times. There were aspects of the old engine that would not work well with the new one. There were things that did not transfer well. There were things they tried to improve on. Mind you, they have telemetry and data we do not to base their opinions on. And experience. And know-how. etc. etc.



[/quote]

The irony, because you have a positive opinion of it, let me guess that makes your opinion more significant. Let's stop attacking others for simply disagreeing.

[/quote]

I dont think Irony means what you think it means here.

[quote]Zoikster wrote...

[quote]Darth Krytie wrote...

[quote]Zoikster wrote...

The irony, because you have a positive opinion of it, let me guess that makes your opinion more significant. Let's stop attacking others for simply disagreeing.

[/quote]

Actually, no. It doesn't make my opinion of it more significant. It makes me tired of going to the Bioware forums five months after the game came out and there's still all this annoying complaining.

I never spend this much energy griping about stuff I don't like. I hated Venetica. I never bother to go whine on their forums. Instead, I play another game and move on.

I also don't sit around waiting for the Devs of the game to say something so I can deliberately take it the wrong way and call him out like I'm Anderson effing Cooper.

[/quote]

No you just go to their threads, derail the thread with insults, and pretend you are superior. Good for you. If you don't like it, there are other threads.

[/quote]

Little bit more aggression


I would go through and quote all the other posts where you basically strawman or insult people (my self included) who disagree with you. But at this point I think you are so emotionally invested in trying to make your own point you dont even see what you are doing. So I am simply going to just have to ignore you from this point outwards if you dont get it.[/quote]

Another post full of irony I'm not even going to address. At this point I'll address people with substance.

[Bryy_Miller]

Zoikster wrote...

Bryy_Miller wrote...

Zoikster wrote...
 And one more thing, expanding your audience to Laidlaw means "dumbing down" that didn't quite work out so well did it? 

Ignoring people's posts in order to keep your own opinion as fact isn't really going to work out that well for you on a public forum. 

What post did I ignore, there's been a lot of posts. I'll be glad to address it.

I said that expanding an audience does not equal "dumbing down".

You seem to have barreled straight through that in order to keep up with the "Mike Laidlaw is dumb" tomfoolery.

[Zoikster]

PresidentCowboy wrote...

Zoikster wrote...

*SPOILERS*
There were so many more variations in DA:O you could have killed Loghaine, Kinged Alistair, make the daughter queen, keep your relationship w Alistair.  You could also get Morrigan pregnant etc.Not to mention all the different origin stories. There is just no comparison.

I'm talking about the ending itself though, not different stuff that can happen towards the end. And the origins are right at the beginning...

I'm talking about the game as whole.

[hoorayforicecream]

Zoikster wrote...

I'm here asking for clarification on what was so busted and imposing, yet nobody here seems to be able to say it. One person disliked coersion...

1. Gift system. "One more word and I'll run you through." "... a ham bone? For me? Oh you shouldn't have... all is forgiven."

2. Front-loaded combat difficulty. The first 25% of each fight was vastly more important than the last 75%, because you kill all your high-importance targets first, then the rest is cleanup. This makes combat uneven.

3. Extended and drawn-out dungeon crawl sequences with nothing to break it up (Deep Roads, Fade) or help pacing.

4. class unbalance. 2H warriors are worthless, mages have it easy soloing the entire game. Archers were extremely weak compared to DW.

5. Companions not named Alistair, Morrigan, or Loghain were completely separated from the main storyline. None of the other characters had any real effect on the story, and existed only within their own private bubble of storytelling. As a corollary to this, there was less gating on their conversations, and you could talk to them about everything early, and then they would mostly be silent the rest of the game. Combine this with #1, and it gets grating.

[Zoikster]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

Zoikster wrote...

Bryy_Miller wrote...

Zoikster wrote...
 And one more thing, expanding your audience to Laidlaw means "dumbing down" that didn't quite work out so well did it? 

Ignoring people's posts in order to keep your own opinion as fact isn't really going to work out that well for you on a public forum. 

What post did I ignore, there's been a lot of posts. I'll be glad to address it.

I said that expanding an audience does not equal "dumbing down".

You seem to have barreled straight through that in order to keep up with the "Mike Laidlaw is dumb" tomfoolery.

Now you're putting words in my mouth. You fanboys can be quite the piece of work. For what it's worth I did misread your post.

[Zoikster]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Zoikster wrote...

I'm here asking for clarification on what was so busted and imposing, yet nobody here seems to be able to say it. One person disliked coersion...

1. Gift system. "One more word and I'll run you through." "... a ham bone? For me? Oh you shouldn't have... all is forgiven."

2. Front-loaded combat difficulty. The first 25% of each fight was vastly more important than the last 75%, because you kill all your high-importance targets first, then the rest is cleanup. This makes combat uneven.

3. Extended and drawn-out dungeon crawl sequences with nothing to break it up (Deep Roads, Fade) or help pacing.

4. class unbalance. 2H warriors are worthless, mages have it easy soloing the entire game. Archers were extremely weak compared to DW.

5. Companions not named Alistair, Morrigan, or Loghain were completely separated from the main storyline. None of the other characters had any real effect on the story, and existed only within their own private bubble of storytelling. As a corollary to this, there was less gating on their conversations, and you could talk to them about everything early, and then they would mostly be silent the rest of the game. Combine this with #1, and it gets grating.

I can't agree with you on the story I just can't. Some of the other stuff is quite debateable, including the gifting concept although it wasn't my favorite aspect.

Modifié par Zoikster, 14 août 2011 - 08:57 .

[Monica21]

Kothoses Rothenkisal wrote...
I dont think anyone is discouraging people from expressing what they liked or disliked, I think what some people are a bit weary of is how every other thread is trying to take various people to task over the dissapointment that was Dragon Age 2.

While there is no denying that the majority of Forum goers seem to be dissapointed with it, there does seem to be two camps of people expressing their displeasure.

There are people like your self who express very well thought out view points and who offer constructive feedback, and then there are people like the OP here who bulldozes in and basically insults anyone who dares to disagree with their opinion because they are angry that they plumbed money into the game.

While I can understand both frustrations I think some people on these forums who are more regular than even me are just a bit weary of the circular arguments that come up every time some one does a DA  and DA 2 thread.  While I agree there needs to be constant feedback from the Fans of Origins (I am one) there is a 100+ page constructive critique thread and a bunch of others and some people take it on them selves to simply try and funnel off those kind of debates so they dont happen in every thread (which seems to be the norm).  Now I am in no way saying that this is what you were attempting, but that is why some people respond the way they do to such debates.

I hadn't seen the thread that was linked to earlier because I'd deliberately been avoiding the DA2 forums, but now I'm curious so I'll have to read it. And because I want to give Bioware a chance I'll probably play Legacy. 

That said, I do understand some of what ML is saying. Developers have more constraints than we realize. Again, I know that some things in Origins could have worked better, but I still don't know what was broken. Is it the stuff that didn't make it into DA2 like Coercion and Crafting? Because that's a head-scratcher if it was deemed "broken."