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[TEWR]

Tirfan wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I personally don't attack any of the devs (if any of my posts come off that way, I apologize because that's not the intent), but I do think much of DA's core integrity was lost in DAII. Specifically choices that don't get railroaded to the exact same ending.

And I do want some clarification on what was busted.

I'd hug you if that wouldn't be quite weird.
Clarification what was busted and if the said feature was removed, why was it removed instead of trying to fix it would be really nice.

There is a boatload of things I think DA2 did wrong, yeah, many here don't share the same complaints that I have, especialyl on certain areas, but I have to say, it really felt amazing to play DA:O after DA2.. there just was something in that game that DA2 lacked.

But even after that, yeah, this bashing is getting a bit boring, even for me.

I'll settle for a handshake and a drink

But yeah, as much as I enjoy the new combat animations of DAII over DAO's (for the most part), DAO had a better story (for the most part).

Granted, DAO set up a standard for every single decision (Bhelen for Orzammar, save the mages in the Circle, Save Connor with the mages, save the elves by having Zathrian go noble).

While you can roleplay differently, there really isn't much of a point to it if there's a standard already set up. None of the mages that you save turn out to be blood mages and go on a killing spree, so why would you annul the Circle?

[FieryDove]

Atakuma wrote...

shadowhawk233 wrote...

Hey, do my opinions count?

Only if you're a pc gamer.

PC gamers - We have dismissed that claim.

"In a translation of the interview, it was revealed that BioWare is working on the game with console in mind (since that's where the biggest sales are), there will be no tactical aerial view for the PC as it would be too expensive to build based on its target audience"

Pzykozis wrote...

I'd say skills were fairly busted [coercion lulwut? Need arbitrary point to be able to speak in a persuasive manner, tactics needing points... really?] (and Arcane warriors... and rogues and warriors using the same dual wield abilities), but I bet a lot of people would beg to differ. Shame that, you should become my mindless minions and we'd create a better world for all or atleast myself, or something [I'm just joking.. kinda-ish].

Busted things that aren't in the second game... seems to fall in line with what he said, obviously I can't speak for him but y'know, Origins was great, but there were worthless [pretty much all of the crafting] / broken things in there, whether they should have been improved [crafting is better now or well... more useful anyway] or removed is a different story though I guess.

Yes I agree 100% take everything out. The combat and loot should go next. Just need cinematics with conversations then for DA3. No, even better take interactive dialogues out and just have cinematics!

D2 doesn’t have crafting. It has a medieval version of the HSN. Not that I mind, awakenings rune crafting was painful.

I don't think we'll ever find out what they thought was busted/bad in DAO.

I wonder what Mark Darrah(sp?) thinks of all this.

One person's junk/busted is another's treasure/working perfectly. Just saying...

Modifié par FieryDove, 14 août 2011 - 09:00 .

[Zoikster]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Zoikster wrote...

Nobody said DA:O was perfect either, you're just using that to justify your case. Bleh.

I guess that explains why you don't see anything busted with Origins and was offended by Laidlaw's comment?

Using busted as an excuse for the terribleness that became DA 2.  I think you completely miunderstand where I'm coming from.

I'm just saying if they thought they were "fixing' dragon age by giving us DA 2, something def went wrong. And again putting words in my mouth, DA:O wasn't perfect, but it certainly wasn't busted.

Modifié par Zoikster, 14 août 2011 - 09:02 .

[Bryy_Miller]

Zoikster wrote...
 And one more thing, expanding your audience to Laidlaw means "dumbing down"

Now you're putting words in my mouth. You fanboys can be quite the piece of work. For what it's worth I did misread your post.

I just quoted you saying that.

[Kothoses Rothenkisal]

Monica21 wrote...

Kothoses Rothenkisal wrote...
I dont think anyone is discouraging people from expressing what they liked or disliked, I think what some people are a bit weary of is how every other thread is trying to take various people to task over the dissapointment that was Dragon Age 2.

While there is no denying that the majority of Forum goers seem to be dissapointed with it, there does seem to be two camps of people expressing their displeasure.

There are people like your self who express very well thought out view points and who offer constructive feedback, and then there are people like the OP here who bulldozes in and basically insults anyone who dares to disagree with their opinion because they are angry that they plumbed money into the game.

While I can understand both frustrations I think some people on these forums who are more regular than even me are just a bit weary of the circular arguments that come up every time some one does a DA  and DA 2 thread.  While I agree there needs to be constant feedback from the Fans of Origins (I am one) there is a 100+ page constructive critique thread and a bunch of others and some people take it on them selves to simply try and funnel off those kind of debates so they dont happen in every thread (which seems to be the norm).  Now I am in no way saying that this is what you were attempting, but that is why some people respond the way they do to such debates.

I hadn't seen the thread that was linked to earlier because I'd deliberately been avoiding the DA2 forums, but now I'm curious so I'll have to read it. And because I want to give Bioware a chance I'll probably play Legacy. 

That said, I do understand some of what ML is saying. Developers have more constraints than we realize. Again, I know that some things in Origins could have worked better, but I still don't know what was broken. Is it the stuff that didn't make it into DA2 like Coercion and Crafting? Because that's a head-scratcher if it was deemed "broken."

It was a very interesting discussion and it left me feeling a lot better about the possabilities for DA 3 as a whole.  It was interesting because the Staff that posted there did so without seeming to feel the need to defend their posistion, David Gaider, and Mike Laidlaw opened up a bit with some nice information about future plans and how they were addressing some of the concerns with DA 2.

It convinced me to give Legacy a try (as soon as I have the time, I am currently working my way through a second play through of TW 2 and recording more audio for the blogs).   More importantly it gave me a bit of hope that DA 3 might be a step back towards what the more old school RPG players amongst us liked about old Bioware.

[Dave of Canada]

Zoikster wrote...

Using busted as an excuse for the terribleness that became DA 2.  I think you completely miunderstand where I'm coming from.

It isn't an excuse.

They felt something was broken, they tried fixing it. I don't care much for the implementation on a few cases, though I much prefer the overall work they've done. Laidlaw seems to prefer DA2's systems (at the very least, in public) over DAO.

There's two things you can hate in this case:
A) The idea.
 The implementation.

Considering how many people absolutely loathed DA2 but loved Legacy, it seems the flaw isn't A. It's B.

[Zoikster]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

Zoikster wrote...
 And one more thing, expanding your audience to Laidlaw means "dumbing down"

Now you're putting words in my mouth. You fanboys can be quite the piece of work. For what it's worth I did misread your post.

I just quoted you saying that.

Ouch. I did not say  "Mike Laidlaw is dumb"  That came from you. And yes that is a quote from you.

Modifié par Zoikster, 14 août 2011 - 09:06 .

[hoorayforicecream]

Zoikster wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Zoikster wrote...

I'm here asking for clarification on what was so busted and imposing, yet nobody here seems to be able to say it. One person disliked coersion...

1. Gift system. "One more word and I'll run you through." "... a ham bone? For me? Oh you shouldn't have... all is forgiven."

2. Front-loaded combat difficulty. The first 25% of each fight was vastly more important than the last 75%, because you kill all your high-importance targets first, then the rest is cleanup. This makes combat uneven.

3. Extended and drawn-out dungeon crawl sequences with nothing to break it up (Deep Roads, Fade) or help pacing.

4. class unbalance. 2H warriors are worthless, mages have it easy soloing the entire game. Archers were extremely weak compared to DW.

5. Companions not named Alistair, Morrigan, or Loghain were completely separated from the main storyline. None of the other characters had any real effect on the story, and existed only within their own private bubble of storytelling. As a corollary to this, there was less gating on their conversations, and you could talk to them about everything early, and then they would mostly be silent the rest of the game. Combine this with #1, and it gets grating.

I can't agree with you on the story I just can't. Some of the other stuff is quite debateable, including the gifting concept although it wasn't my favorite aspect.

Then all you are doing is Moving the goalposts.

[Zoikster]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Zoikster wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Zoikster wrote...

I'm here asking for clarification on what was so busted and imposing, yet nobody here seems to be able to say it. One person disliked coersion...

1. Gift system. "One more word and I'll run you through." "... a ham bone? For me? Oh you shouldn't have... all is forgiven."

2. Front-loaded combat difficulty. The first 25% of each fight was vastly more important than the last 75%, because you kill all your high-importance targets first, then the rest is cleanup. This makes combat uneven.

3. Extended and drawn-out dungeon crawl sequences with nothing to break it up (Deep Roads, Fade) or help pacing.

4. class unbalance. 2H warriors are worthless, mages have it easy soloing the entire game. Archers were extremely weak compared to DW.

5. Companions not named Alistair, Morrigan, or Loghain were completely separated from the main storyline. None of the other characters had any real effect on the story, and existed only within their own private bubble of storytelling. As a corollary to this, there was less gating on their conversations, and you could talk to them about everything early, and then they would mostly be silent the rest of the game. Combine this with #1, and it gets grating.

I can't agree with you on the story I just can't. Some of the other stuff is quite debateable, including the gifting concept although it wasn't my favorite aspect.

Then all you are doing is Moving the goalposts.

Not really, seeing as the new changes aren't well liked in DA 2, I'd say that's incorrect.

[Zoikster]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Zoikster wrote...

Using busted as an excuse for the terribleness that became DA 2.  I think you completely miunderstand where I'm coming from.

It isn't an excuse.

They felt something was broken, they tried fixing it. I don't care much for the implementation on a few cases, though I much prefer the overall work they've done. Laidlaw seems to prefer DA2's systems (at the very least, in public) over DAO.

There's two things you can hate in this case:
A) The idea.
 The implementation.

Considering how many people absolutely loathed DA2 but loved Legacy, it seems the flaw isn't A. It's B.

That's my problem with them. They felt things were broken, that weren't. Simple as that. They stripped everything I loved out of DA:O and gave me DA 2.

[TEWR]

Zoikster wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Zoikster wrote...

Using busted as an excuse for the terribleness that became DA 2.  I think you completely miunderstand where I'm coming from.

It isn't an excuse.

They felt something was broken, they tried fixing it. I don't care much for the implementation on a few cases, though I much prefer the overall work they've done. Laidlaw seems to prefer DA2's systems (at the very least, in public) over DAO.

There's two things you can hate in this case:
A) The idea.
 The implementation.

Considering how many people absolutely loathed DA2 but loved Legacy, it seems the flaw isn't A. It's B.

That's my problem with them. They felt things were broken, that weren't. Simple as that. They stripped everything I loved out of DA:O and gave me DA 2.

Like what?

[Morroian]

Zoikster wrote...

I'm just saying if they thought they were "fixing' dragon age by giving us DA 2, something def went wrong. And again putting words in my mouth, DA:O wasn't perfect, but it certainly wasn't busted.

He's not saying it was, he said some stuff in it was. That doesn't translate to the game overally being busted.

[Zoikster]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Zoikster wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Zoikster wrote...

Using busted as an excuse for the terribleness that became DA 2.  I think you completely miunderstand where I'm coming from.

It isn't an excuse.

They felt something was broken, they tried fixing it. I don't care much for the implementation on a few cases, though I much prefer the overall work they've done. Laidlaw seems to prefer DA2's systems (at the very least, in public) over DAO.

There's two things you can hate in this case:
A) The idea.
 The implementation.

Considering how many people absolutely loathed DA2 but loved Legacy, it seems the flaw isn't A. It's B.

That's my problem with them. They felt things were broken, that weren't. Simple as that. They stripped everything I loved out of DA:O and gave me DA 2.

Like what?

Story branching. That is hugely stripped. Races, I was pigeon-holed into playing Hawke. Dialogue w companions was also "dumbed down." I could chat up my companions and get to know my DA:O friends a lot better.

Modifié par Zoikster, 14 août 2011 - 09:13 .

[Bryy_Miller]

Zoikster wrote...

Bryy_Miller wrote...

Zoikster wrote...
 And one more thing, expanding your audience to Laidlaw means "dumbing down"

Now you're putting words in my mouth. You fanboys can be quite the piece of work. For what it's worth I did misread your post.

I just quoted you saying that.

Ouch. I did not say  "Mike Laidlaw is dumb"  That came from you. And yes that is a quote from you.

No? I have no idea where you got that from.

Zoikster wrote...

That's my problem with them. They felt things were broken, that weren't. Simple as that. They stripped everything I loved out of DA:O and gave me DA 2.

Okay. So you didn't like what they changed. So I guess I don't understand why you're acting like your opinion is more superior than everyone elses.

[PinkShoes]

I think Laidlaw wants to turn the DA series into a casual game which is very very depressing. The people who will play DA series are not gunna be casual gamers lets face it. Im pretty damn sure most of us arent casual gamers. Demon souls was a damn hard game and that sold well, you know why? Because that game didnt treat its players like they were drooling morons who needed their hands held.

The start of the game was surposed to make you feel powerful..well..did it? didnt make me feel like Hawke was a powerful champion of legends. Just made me think "well that was shiny wasnt it"

Devs, they are gamers themselves. Would they honnestly like the way this game series is going? Casual? Gamers arent morons. Dont treat us that way. One thing about DAO that i really enjoyed was how tatical i could be. I like to think about my next move. the best way to take down a mage and so on. Also, omg mages they arent as powerful and they were in DAO. they are more annoying than anything with that force field around them. Sure a bloodmage can take you down fast but if they arent blood mages well they are sorta like flies really. Just an annoyence.

I play DA2 on hard/nightmare and the only reason i have to pause is cause i play on PS3.

[Monica21]

hoorayforicecream wrote...
3. Extended and drawn-out dungeon crawl sequences with nothing to break it up (Deep Roads, Fade) or help pacing.

I loved the Deep Roads in part because I think it's supposed to feel like a grind and because, for a change, I actually feel what my character might feel. I hope "we're never going to the Deep Roads for a long time" is part of Bioware's D3 development plan. Then again, I'm not sure anything could feel quite as epic as the arriving at the Dead Trenches in Origins.

All that to say, I don't think the Deep Roads or the Fade could be considered broken. Not liking them is very different from the quest line being broken.

[Zoikster]

Bryy_Miller wrote...



You seem to have barreled straight through that in order to keep up with the "Mike Laidlaw is dumb" tomfoolery.

Sigh 

[Zoikster]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

Zoikster wrote...

Bryy_Miller wrote...

Zoikster wrote...
 And one more thing, expanding your audience to Laidlaw means "dumbing down"

Now you're putting words in my mouth. You fanboys can be quite the piece of work. For what it's worth I did misread your post.

I just quoted you saying that.

Ouch. I did not say  "Mike Laidlaw is dumb"  That came from you. And yes that is a quote from you.

No? I have no idea where you got that from.

Zoikster wrote...

That's my problem with them. They felt things were broken, that weren't. Simple as that. They stripped everything I loved out of DA:O and gave me DA 2.

Okay. So you didn't like what they changed. So I guess I don't understand why you're acting like your opinion is more superior than everyone elses.

I'm not acting like it's superior. I'm defending my own opinion. It was others who were saying my opinion wasn't valid. 

[Morroian]

Zoikster wrote...

Story branching. That is hugely stripped.

What story branching? The fact that you could do the major quests in any order? Thats not story branching.

[Zoikster]

Morroian wrote...

Zoikster wrote...

Story branching. That is hugely stripped.

What story branching? The fact that you could do the major quests in any order? Thats not story branching.

More spoilers
No, the way the story played out. Like I said in other instances, Alistair could be king, or he may not. Morrigan could be pregnant, or you could pass the ritual up. There were all kinds of impactful choices in the game. I don't understand where the  confusion is.

[TEWR]

Zoikster wrote...

Story branching. That is hugely stripped. Races, I was pigeon-holed into playing Hawke. Dialogue w companions was also "dumbed down." I could chat up my companions and get to know my DA:O friends a lot better.

Story branching -- okay, yes that was DAII's biggest flaw.

Races --- the DA series is about Thedas, meaning there will be games with Origin stories and games with set races. We've seen one of each, so saying they took it away is a bit hasty. Especially considering David Gaider said they haven't ruled out the idea of using origin stories in the future.

Now, you could ask that if they make set races for one of the games that they do class Specific Origins (Mage/Rogue/Warrior)

Dialogue --- I got to know the DAII companions just fine with what I had.

Leliana's dialogue was mostly "Can I hear a story?"

Alistair's was mostly "Can you tell me more about the Grey Wardens?"

Sten's was "Can you tell me more about the Qunari way of thinking?", which did shed some light on who he was, but not much

If you take out those things, you're left with the same amount of dialogue DAII gave.

[Bryy_Miller]

Zoikster wrote...
I'm not acting like it's superior. 

By acting hostile with everyone, that's what it seems like. I'm sorry if you feel like people are "attacking" you., or even calling your opinion invalid. 

Also, I'm waiting for the quote where I apparently called Laidlaw dumb.

Modifié par Bryy_Miller, 14 août 2011 - 09:22 .

[Zoikster]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Zoikster wrote...

Story branching. That is hugely stripped. Races, I was pigeon-holed into playing Hawke. Dialogue w companions was also "dumbed down." I could chat up my companions and get to know my DA:O friends a lot better.

Story branching -- okay, yes that was DAII's biggest flaw.

Races --- the DA series is about Thedas, meaning there will be games with Origin stories and games with set races. We've seen one of each, so saying they took it away is a bit hasty. Especially considering David Gaider said they haven't ruled out the idea of using origin stories in the future.

Now, you could ask that if they make set races for one of the games that they do class Specific Origins (Mage/Rogue/Warrior)

Dialogue --- I got to know the DAII companions just fine with what I had.

Leliana's dialogue was mostly "Can I hear a story?"

Alistair's was mostly "Can you tell me more about the Grey Wardens?"

Sten's was "Can you tell me more about the Qunari way of thinking?", which did shed some light on who he was, but not much

If you take out those things, you're left with the same amount of dialogue DAII gave.

Now you're  being hasty with dialogue. take it you didn't chat your companions up at camp. They were was a lot more depth and a lot more dialogue.

[hoorayforicecream]

Monica21 wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...
3. Extended and drawn-out dungeon crawl sequences with nothing to break it up (Deep Roads, Fade) or help pacing.

I loved the Deep Roads in part because I think it's supposed to feel like a grind and because, for a change, I actually feel what my character might feel. I hope "we're never going to the Deep Roads for a long time" is part of Bioware's D3 development plan. Then again, I'm not sure anything could feel quite as epic as the arriving at the Dead Trenches in Origins.

All that to say, I don't think the Deep Roads or the Fade could be considered broken. Not liking them is very different from the quest line being broken.

Oh hey, it's someone who actually wants to discuss. It's not that the Deep Roads or the Fade were "broken", but they were long grinds that many people complained about  (the DAO "Skip the Fade" mod has hundreds of thousands of downloads for this very reason). The pacing in the Deep Roads and the Fade didn't match the rest of the game, and that's something that needed addressing. Legacy is essentially similar - an enclosed dungeon crawl, but it broke up the crawling with cutscenes, story, banter, etc. interleaved that was lacking in the Deep Roads. I viewed it as an improvement over the grindiness of the DR, because I don't like grinding.

[devSin]

FieryDove wrote...

I wonder what Mark Darrah(sp?) thinks of all this.

Why? Considering he's the producer and franchise director, I imagine he's not of too different an opinion.