628 réponses à ce sujet

[Zoikster]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

Zoikster wrote...
I'm not acting like it's superior. 

By acting hostile with everyone, that's what it seems like. I'm sorry if you feel like people are "attacking" you., or even calling your opinion invalid. 

Also, I'm waiting for the quote where I apparently called Laidlaw dumb..

I'm sorry you feel defending my opinion is hostile. Oh and you aren't reading correctly. You put those words in my mouth. I left the quote for you.

Modifié par Zoikster, 14 août 2011 - 09:23 .

[Morroian]

Zoikster wrote...

Morroian wrote...

Zoikster wrote...

Story branching. That is hugely stripped.

What story branching? The fact that you could do the major quests in any order? Thats not story branching.

More spoilers
No, the way the story played out. Like I said in other instances, Alistair could be king, or he may not. Morrigan could be pregnant, or you could pass the ritual up. There were all kinds of impactful choices in the game. I don't understand where the  confusion is.

Those aren't impactful choices, with the exception of the dark ritual they are telling us what happened in epilogue slides with no impact on the world or the games (and the death of the warden doesn't have any effect either). Its the illusion of choice.

[hoorayforicecream]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

If you take out those things, you're left with the same amount of dialogue DAII gave.

DA2 actually had more dialogue per follower than DAO. It just didn't have them all bunched up like the campsite conversations.

[Bryy_Miller]

Zoikster wrote...
Now you're  being hasty with dialogue. take it you didn't chat your companions up at camp. They were was a lot more depth and a lot more dialogue.

This is why people think you're swatting their opinions away left and right. Because anyone that has a differing one was apparently playing the game wrong or something.

[Zoikster]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

Zoikster wrote...
Now you're  being hasty with dialogue. take it you didn't chat your companions up at camp. They were was a lot more depth and a lot more dialogue.

This is why people think you're swatting their opinions away left and right. Because anyone that has a differing one was apparently playing the game wrong or something.

But it's true. There wasn't as much companion dialogue. There just wasn't. I played through twice and I don't know anywhere as much as I knew about my companions in DA:O I've heard this complaint before, it's why I felt a bit disconnected from most of my companions.

Modifié par Zoikster, 14 août 2011 - 09:25 .

[Dave of Canada]

Morroian wrote...

Those aren't impactful choices, with the exception of the dark ritual they are telling us what happened in epilogue slides with no impact on the world or the games (and the death of the warden doesn't have any effect either). Its the illusion of choice.

I'm honestly wondering how many people would think DA2's choices were more meaningful if they had an epilogue card. :-/

[FieryDove]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

If you take out those things, you're left with the same amount of dialogue DAII gave.

DA2 actually had more dialogue per follower than DAO. It just didn't have them all bunched up like the campsite conversations.

Maybe because most of it was personal quest or quest related people felt companions were lacking. That and the feeling of forced talks by game design rather than whenever the player wishes. Just a guess.

[TEWR]

Zoikster wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Zoikster wrote...

Story branching. That is hugely stripped. Races, I was pigeon-holed into playing Hawke. Dialogue w companions was also "dumbed down." I could chat up my companions and get to know my DA:O friends a lot better.

Story branching -- okay, yes that was DAII's biggest flaw.

Races --- the DA series is about Thedas, meaning there will be games with Origin stories and games with set races. We've seen one of each, so saying they took it away is a bit hasty. Especially considering David Gaider said they haven't ruled out the idea of using origin stories in the future.

Now, you could ask that if they make set races for one of the games that they do class Specific Origins (Mage/Rogue/Warrior)

Dialogue --- I got to know the DAII companions just fine with what I had.

Leliana's dialogue was mostly "Can I hear a story?"

Alistair's was mostly "Can you tell me more about the Grey Wardens?"

Sten's was "Can you tell me more about the Qunari way of thinking?", which did shed some light on who he was, but not much

If you take out those things, you're left with the same amount of dialogue DAII gave.

Now you're  being hasty with dialogue. take it you didn't chat your companions up at camp. They were was a lot more depth and a lot more dialogue.

No, I did chat them up. And I did learn a lot about them, but not through every single dialogue option. I said their dialogue was mostly what I stated. I didn't say it was all.

You can learn that Duncan was a father to Alistair. Okay, one thing you learn about Alistair.

You can learn that Marethari was like a mother to Merrill. Okay, one thing you learn for Merrill.

If you play DAO without talking to them about the things that introduce you to the lore of the world and instead focus on the ones that matter to the person, then really there is the same amount of dialogue with them as there is with the DAII companions.

[Bryy_Miller]

Zoikster wrote...
 I left the quote for you.

Bryy_Miller wrote...

You seem to have barreled straight through that in order to keep up with the "Mike Laidlaw is dumb" tomfoolery.

Okay. Now where in that did I call Laidlaw dumb? I was saying you were calling Laidlaw dumb, and that you were ignoring other people's posts in order to continue with that stance.

[Zoikster]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

Zoikster wrote...
 I left the quote for you.

Bryy_Miller wrote...

You seem to have barreled straight through that in order to keep up with the "Mike Laidlaw is dumb" tomfoolery.

Okay. Now where in that did I call Laidlaw dumb? I was saying you were calling Laidlaw dumb, and that you were ignoring other people's posts in order to continue with that stance.

That's the thing I didn't say you called him dumb, I said you were putting words into my mouth.

I don't usually do this but /facepalm

[Yrkoon]

Zoikster wrote...


And this bit.

 “I’ve said it before, and I will say it again: we stripped some stuff out of DA becuase it was busted”

Exactly what was busted?

I have no idea, since  he never clarified, and flat out refused to clarify when he was  repeatedly asked on that thread.

But I do know one thing:    The list of "busted" stuff in DA2 is a mile long.     If they strip it all out, DA3 is likely to be 10 minutes long.  LOL


Also:

Zoikster wrote...

Laidlaw: “If I’m going to ****** you guys off, it’s going to be because I still firmly believe that RPGs do need to be more accessible to new players,” Laidlaw adds. “Not diminished, but made less imposing and less terrifying to new players. In part because I want more people to play Dragon Age, and in part because there have been a lot of improvements in gameplay and UI design in the past 15 years, and we can learn from them.”

Yeah...  This is the comment that rubbed me the wrong way.  Because if you strip away the euphimistic marketting garbage, he's basically saying:  We gotta DUMB DOWN everything.    Of course, Laidlaw will  vehemently deny this, but  he can't have things both ways.  "Complex" and "simple" are mutually exclusive terms.


 And the notion is silly anyway.  Did anyone here actually  find Origins too complicated?     

Modifié par Yrkoon, 14 août 2011 - 09:35 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

hoorayforicecream wrote...
Oh hey, it's someone who actually wants to discuss. It's not that the Deep Roads or the Fade were "broken", but they were long grinds that many people complained about  (the DAO "Skip the Fade" mod has hundreds of thousands of downloads for this very reason). The pacing in the Deep Roads and the Fade didn't match the rest of the game, and that's something that needed addressing. Legacy is essentially similar - an enclosed dungeon crawl, but it broke up the crawling with cutscenes, story, banter, etc. interleaved that was lacking in the Deep Roads. I viewed it as an improvement over the grindiness of the DR, because I don't like grinding.

I cannot comment on Legacy. But when it comes to the Fade, I felt what DA2 did was overkill. The Fade section in DA2 was way too short and I found it completely forgetable. It didn't feel like I was really in the Fade, if that makes sense. It just felt like one could come in, spend 10 minutes in the Fade, and walk out with ease. I vastly prefer the Fade in say Awakening even.

The Fade in Origins might have needed improvement, but I do not see how DA2 fixed this. Now add to that recycled environments following us in the Fade itself (it doesn't look as weird as the Fade in Origins, which imo is bad), how pifitful the pride demon was, and Orsino coming out of nowhere, and I personally felt the Fade in DA2 was worse than the one in Origins.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 14 août 2011 - 09:35 .

[Bryy_Miller]

Zoikster wrote...
That's the thing I didn't say you called him dumb, I said you were putting words into my mouth.

I don't usually do this but /facepalm

You really need to learn how to clarify your posts or nobody is going to be able to understand you, let alone have a discussion with you. 

[TEWR]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

If you take out those things, you're left with the same amount of dialogue DAII gave.

DA2 actually had more dialogue per follower than DAO. It just didn't have them all bunched up like the campsite conversations.

Huh... it seemed like it was the same amount....

well, the fact remains that Origins' companion dialogue was primarily, but not entirely, dialogue to introduce the player to the lore.

[Zoikster]

Morroian wrote...

Zoikster wrote...

Morroian wrote...

Zoikster wrote...

Story branching. That is hugely stripped.

What story branching? The fact that you could do the major quests in any order? Thats not story branching.

More spoilers
No, the way the story played out. Like I said in other instances, Alistair could be king, or he may not. Morrigan could be pregnant, or you could pass the ritual up. There were all kinds of impactful choices in the game. I don't understand where the  confusion is.

Those aren't impactful choices, with the exception of the dark ritual they are telling us what happened in epilogue slides with no impact on the world or the games (and the death of the warden doesn't have any effect either). Its the illusion of choice.

Give me the illusion of choice over no choice, except maybe one at the end of the game any day. And I beg to to differ they were very impactful in my mind. If you want less choice, I guess more power to ya.

[Zoikster]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

Zoikster wrote...
That's the thing I didn't say you called him dumb, I said you were putting words into my mouth.

I don't usually do this but /facepalm

You really need to learn how to clarify your posts or nobody is going to be able to understand you, let alone have a discussion with you. 

It's not my fault you couldn't understand my post. I tried and tried to clarify it. Don't attack me because you misunderstood something. Highly odd.

Modifié par Zoikster, 14 août 2011 - 09:33 .

[Dave of Canada]

Zoikster wrote...

Give me the illusion of choice over no choice, except maybe one at the end of the game any day. And I beg to to differ they were very impactful in my mind. If you want less choice, I guess more power to ya.

So epilogue captions can make "no choice" turn into choice? You have to have everything written down for you to make it feel like you've done a choice?

[Sutekh]

Zoikster wrote...

More spoilers
No, the way the story played out. Like I said in other instances, Alistair could be king, or he may not. Morrigan could be pregnant, or you could pass the ritual up. There were all kinds of impactful choices in the game. I don't understand where the  confusion is.

That's not branching, that's multiple endings. Branching is when you have an actual different playthrough, when you play the branches, not are told this and this happen in a slide-show. That's not to say DAO doesn't have more replayability than DA2, but branching? Nope. Awakening does, though.

And to answer your question "what was busted", my first thought, since I'm playing DAO right now just after playing DA2, is that combat is embarrassingly slow and clumsy, especially in the lower levels (it gets better once you reach certain abilities). That's probably not the only thing, but that's the first that comes to me.

And also, the gift system. It was terrible.

[Bryy_Miller]

Zoikster wrote...


It's not my fault you couldn't understand my post. I tried and tried to clarify it. Don't attack me because you misunderstood something. Highly odd.

That wasn't an attack, but whatever.

[TEWR]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Zoikster wrote...

Give me the illusion of choice over no choice, except maybe one at the end of the game any day. And I beg to to differ they were very impactful in my mind. If you want less choice, I guess more power to ya.

So epilogue captions can make "no choice" turn into choice? You have to have everything written down for you to make it feel like you've done a choice?

It works!

But really, the issue isn't that DAII had no choices. It's that DAII made those choices mean nothing. You make a choice, and the same thing happens, despite the choice you made being one that shouldn't lead to that conclusion.

Or, in some instances, DAII gave you no choice at all.

[hoorayforicecream]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...
Oh hey, it's someone who actually wants to discuss. It's not that the Deep Roads or the Fade were "broken", but they were long grinds that many people complained about  (the DAO "Skip the Fade" mod has hundreds of thousands of downloads for this very reason). The pacing in the Deep Roads and the Fade didn't match the rest of the game, and that's something that needed addressing. Legacy is essentially similar - an enclosed dungeon crawl, but it broke up the crawling with cutscenes, story, banter, etc. interleaved that was lacking in the Deep Roads. I viewed it as an improvement over the grindiness of the DR, because I don't like grinding.

I cannot comment on Legacy. But when it comes to the Fade, I felt what DA2 did was overkill. The Fade section in DA2 was way too short and I found it completely forgetable. It didn't feel like I was really in the Fade, if that makes sense. It just felt like one could come in, spend 10 minutes in the Fade, and walk out with ease. I vastly prefer the Fade in say Awakening even.

The Fade in Origins might have needed improvement, but I do not see how DA2 fixed this. Now add to that reclycled environments following us in the Fade itself (it doesn't look as weird as the Fade in Origins, which imo is bad), how pifitful the pride demons was, and Orsino coming out of nowhere, and I personally felt the Fade in DA2 was worse than the one in Origins.

I think you misunderstood my intention. I wasn't comparing Fade to Fade, or Deep Roads to Deep Roads. I was comparing the length of dungeon crawl areas with little to break up the combat and explore loop in each game. In DA2, the amount of time spent exploring dungeons + fighting monsters, and cinematic cutscene or story advancement was much more uniform across the whole game, while in DAO, it was mostly good except for while the player was in the Deep Roads and the Fade. The DR and the Fade in DAO stood out as differently paced from the rest of the game, and it is a sore spot for many players because of it (hence the 'skip the fade' mod).

[In Exile]

Zoikster wrote...
Several starting choices and several different ways to end the game, I'd say they don't even compare in that department.

After Ostagar, DA:O is completely linear. There is 1 way to end the game: kill the archdemon. There is one place to end the game: Denerim, fighting the darkspawn. DA:O had more choice than DA2, but it wasn't less linear. 

Zoikster wrote...
I'm here asking for clarification on what was so busted and imposing, yet nobody here seems to be able to say it. One person disliked coersion...

Well, let's look at what was cut from DA2 that was in DA:O. Crafting was reconstructed. Tooltips were added because tooltips were missing in DA2. Armour penetraton was removed (and that was entirely useless). How armour works was reworked entirely. Dodge was reworked. I'm sure there were more things. 

[Zoikster]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Zoikster wrote...

Give me the illusion of choice over no choice, except maybe one at the end of the game any day. And I beg to to differ they were very impactful in my mind. If you want less choice, I guess more power to ya.

So epilogue captions can make "no choice" turn into choice? You have to have everything written down for you to make it feel like you've done a choice?

I thought I was real clear Dave of Canada. The choices weren't just written down, you get to fight Loghaine, the ritual is pretty major. In my RPG I was excited to have my Dalish Elf romance Alistair. Those were impactful choices in my game play. I don't know what you're talking about with this epilogue caption stuff.

[Monica21]

hoorayforicecream wrote...
Oh hey, it's someone who actually wants to discuss. It's not that the Deep Roads or the Fade were "broken", but they were long grinds that many people complained about  (the DAO "Skip the Fade" mod has hundreds of thousands of downloads for this very reason). The pacing in the Deep Roads and the Fade didn't match the rest of the game, and that's something that needed addressing. Legacy is essentially similar - an enclosed dungeon crawl, but it broke up the crawling with cutscenes, story, banter, etc. interleaved that was lacking in the Deep Roads. I viewed it as an improvement over the grindiness of the DR, because I don't like grinding.

I agree that they were grinds and that people didn't like them. I can't argue with that. But "I don't like it" is different from "it's broken." It's a little like people not being able to find the Puzzle Box in Morrowind so the Oblivion developers put a compass and quest markers everywhere. It's a little overkill.

I felt like Act I of DA2 was much more of a grind than anything that happened in the Fade or the Deep Roads in Origins. Act I was a lot of meaningless stuff that I was only doing because I had a vague remembrance of needing to fund an expedition. The Deep Roads and the Fade had a purpose, at least from my perspective. But, I'll also admit to being a little blinded because the Deep Roads is probably my favorite section of gameplay in any game ever. 

[Zoikster]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Zoikster wrote...

Give me the illusion of choice over no choice, except maybe one at the end of the game any day. And I beg to to differ they were very impactful in my mind. If you want less choice, I guess more power to ya.

So epilogue captions can make "no choice" turn into choice? You have to have everything written down for you to make it feel like you've done a choice?

It works!

But really, the issue isn't that DAII had no choices. It's that DAII made those choices mean nothing. You make a choice, and the same thing happens, despite the choice you made being one that shouldn't lead to that conclusion.

Or, in some instances, DAII gave you no choice at all.

Precisely