628 réponses à ce sujet

[Dave of Canada]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

It works!

But really, the issue isn't that DAII had no choices. It's that DAII made those choices mean nothing. You make a choice, and the same thing happens, despite the choice you made being one that shouldn't lead to that conclusion.

Or, in some instances, DAII gave you no choice at all.

You've got some choices that can alter some things quite a bit (though it's more personal rather than world changing), some are passive too. Rivalry with a character can change them greatly compared to Friendship, one neat feature I actually liked (something similar to hardening but you didn't pick one line of dialogue and it magically fixed it).

Liked the characters having different reactions to your choices on their quests depending on rivalry / friendship, like Isabela's post-quest dialogue after Act 3's quest / choice. If you've never done it, rivalry and giving her the [REDACTED] leads to a great conversation.

[TEWR]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...
Oh hey, it's someone who actually wants to discuss. It's not that the Deep Roads or the Fade were "broken", but they were long grinds that many people complained about  (the DAO "Skip the Fade" mod has hundreds of thousands of downloads for this very reason). The pacing in the Deep Roads and the Fade didn't match the rest of the game, and that's something that needed addressing. Legacy is essentially similar - an enclosed dungeon crawl, but it broke up the crawling with cutscenes, story, banter, etc. interleaved that was lacking in the Deep Roads. I viewed it as an improvement over the grindiness of the DR, because I don't like grinding.

I cannot comment on Legacy. But when it comes to the Fade, I felt what DA2 did was overkill. The Fade section in DA2 was way too short and I found it completely forgetable. It didn't feel like I was really in the Fade, if that makes sense. It just felt like one could come in, spend 10 minutes in the Fade, and walk out with ease. I vastly prefer the Fade in say Awakening even.

The Fade in Origins might have needed improvement, but I do not see how DA2 fixed this. Now add to that reclycled environments following us in the Fade itself (it doesn't look as weird as the Fade in Origins, which imo is bad), how pifitful the pride demons was, and Orsino coming out of nowhere, and I personally felt the Fade in DA2 was worse than the one in Origins.

I think you misunderstood my intention. I wasn't comparing Fade to Fade, or Deep Roads to Deep Roads. I was comparing the length of dungeon crawl areas with little to break up the combat and explore loop in each game. In DA2, the amount of time spent exploring dungeons + fighting monsters, and cinematic cutscene or story advancement was much more uniform across the whole game, while in DAO, it was mostly good except for while the player was in the Deep Roads and the Fade. The DR and the Fade in DAO stood out as differently paced from the rest of the game, and it is a sore spot for many players because of it (hence the 'skip the fade' mod).

I have to say I enjoyed the Deep Roads. I knew I was going underground, and by doing so I expected to explore a vast array of tunnels.

What's even better about it to me is that I like to think of it as that I'm dealing a heavy blow to the Archdemon's forces in the Deep Roads, along with Return to Ostagar. I take down two of his Forge Masters and various other Darkspawn commanders.

That said, DAII got the look of the Deep Roads right to me. Give me DAII's looks of the Deep Roads and DAO's length and I'll be happy.

[In Exile]

Zoikster wrote...
No, the way the story played out. Like I said in other instances, Alistair could be king, or he may not. Morrigan could be pregnant, or you could pass the ritual up. There were all kinds of impactful choices in the game. I don't understand where the  confusion is.

The story plays out the same. Alistair and Anora serve an identical role in the plot with respect to Kingship. Loghain and Alistiar play exactly the same role with the archdemon at Denerim and with Morrigain in the DR. The DR does not change anything in DA:O, except for the Warden's epilogue.

The choices have no impact, outside of changing cogs and epilogue slides. I get that for some people, this illusion of choice is important.

But if you want to talk about branching story, then TW2 is branching story, where all of Act II is totally different.  

[Zoikster]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...
Oh hey, it's someone who actually wants to discuss. It's not that the Deep Roads or the Fade were "broken", but they were long grinds that many people complained about  (the DAO "Skip the Fade" mod has hundreds of thousands of downloads for this very reason). The pacing in the Deep Roads and the Fade didn't match the rest of the game, and that's something that needed addressing. Legacy is essentially similar - an enclosed dungeon crawl, but it broke up the crawling with cutscenes, story, banter, etc. interleaved that was lacking in the Deep Roads. I viewed it as an improvement over the grindiness of the DR, because I don't like grinding.

I cannot comment on Legacy. But when it comes to the Fade, I felt what DA2 did was overkill. The Fade section in DA2 was way too short and I found it completely forgetable. It didn't feel like I was really in the Fade, if that makes sense. It just felt like one could come in, spend 10 minutes in the Fade, and walk out with ease. I vastly prefer the Fade in say Awakening even.

The Fade in Origins might have needed improvement, but I do not see how DA2 fixed this. Now add to that reclycled environments following us in the Fade itself (it doesn't look as weird as the Fade in Origins, which imo is bad), how pifitful the pride demons was, and Orsino coming out of nowhere, and I personally felt the Fade in DA2 was worse than the one in Origins.

I think you misunderstood my intention. I wasn't comparing Fade to Fade, or Deep Roads to Deep Roads. I was comparing the length of dungeon crawl areas with little to break up the combat and explore loop in each game. In DA2, the amount of time spent exploring dungeons + fighting monsters, and cinematic cutscene or story advancement was much more uniform across the whole game, while in DAO, it was mostly good except for while the player was in the Deep Roads and the Fade. The DR and the Fade in DAO stood out as differently paced from the rest of the game, and it is a sore spot for many players because of it (hence the 'skip the fade' mod).

I have to say I enjoyed the Deep Roads. I knew I was going underground, and by doing so I expected to explore a vast array of tunnels.

What's even better about it to me is that I like to think of it as that I'm dealing a heavy blow to the Archdemon's forces in the Deep Roads, along with Return to Ostagar. I take down two of his Forge Masters and various other Darkspawn commanders.

That said, DAII got the look of the Deep Roads right to me. Give me DAII's looks of the Deep Roads and DAO's length and I'll be happy.

Agreed, I really like how DA 2 designed the Deep Roads. Just wish it were a bit longer.

[Dave of Canada]

Zoikster wrote...

I thought I was real clear Dave of Canada. The choices weren't just written down, you get to fight Loghaine, the ritual is pretty major.

You get to pick how you handle the Arishok, there's a bunch of ways to handle that scene. Similar to Loghain, though Arishok had more choices on how to handle it.

In my RPG I was excited to have my Dalish Elf romance Alistair. Those were impactful choices in my game play.

So romancing Anders, Fenris, Merrill and Isabela aren't "impactful choices" in DA2 compared to Alistair / Leliana / Zevran and Morrigan?

I don't know what you're talking about with this epilogue caption stuff.

Except, you know, we were talking about epilogue captions.

[Zoikster]

In Exile wrote...

Zoikster wrote...
No, the way the story played out. Like I said in other instances, Alistair could be king, or he may not. Morrigan could be pregnant, or you could pass the ritual up. There were all kinds of impactful choices in the game. I don't understand where the  confusion is.

The story plays out the same. Alistair and Anora serve an identical role in the plot with respect to Kingship. Loghain and Alistiar play exactly the same role with the archdemon at Denerim and with Morrigain in the DR. The DR does not change anything in DA:O, except for the Warden's epilogue.

The choices have no impact, outside of changing cogs and epilogue slides. I get that for some people, this illusion of choice is important.

But if you want to talk about branching story, then TW2 is branching story, where all of Act II is totally different.  

It doesn't matter, they were choices I enjoyed being able to make.

[Zoikster]

Dave of Canada wrote...




So romancing Anders, Fenris, Merrill and Isabela aren't "impactful choices" in DA2 compared to Alistair / Leliana / Zevran and Morrigan?

I don't know what you're talking about with this epilogue caption stuff.

Except, you know, we were talking about epilogue captions.

No they weren't. Romancing them gave me no tough decisions. For instance I pushed Alistair to be king...That was fun for me.

Modifié par Zoikster, 14 août 2011 - 09:45 .

[Zoikster]

PresidentCowboy wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

But really, the issue isn't that DAII had no choices. It's that DAII made those choices mean nothing. You make a choice, and the same thing happens, despite the choice you made being one that shouldn't lead to that conclusion.

Or, in some instances, DAII gave you no choice at all.

Same goes for Origins.

Nope, I'm pretty sure my choices had impacts. Like if I push Alistair to become king, he wants to breakup. Or if I kill Loghaine, he can't join my party

Modifié par Zoikster, 14 août 2011 - 09:46 .

[TEWR]

Dave of Canada wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

It works!

But really, the issue isn't that DAII had no choices. It's that DAII made those choices mean nothing. You make a choice, and the same thing happens, despite the choice you made being one that shouldn't lead to that conclusion.

Or, in some instances, DAII gave you no choice at all.

You've got some choices that can alter some things quite a bit (though it's more personal rather than world changing), some are passive too. Rivalry with a character can change them greatly compared to Friendship, one neat feature I actually liked (something similar to hardening but you didn't pick one line of dialogue and it magically fixed it).

Liked the characters having different reactions to your choices on their quests depending on rivalry / friendship, like Isabela's post-quest dialogue after Act 3's quest / choice. If you've never done it, rivalry and giving her the [REDACTED] leads to a great conversation.

The choices didn't have to be world changing, but they should've been story changing. Ideally,  I should've been able to persuade Decimus to not attack me and tell him that I would help him escape. Then, in Act 2 he's captured along with his comrades, but bears no ill will towards me because I helped him and his friends. Then in Act 3, the rebellion changes dramatically. I'm a pro-mage person who spoke against Meredith, so they don't attack me. Instead, I convince them to leave before Cullen and Samson arrive, and then they assist Orsino in the fight against Meredith.

I don't need a world changing choice. I just need a story changing one.

And I always friendship Isabela. She's cool like that.

[In Exile]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
The Fade in Origins might have needed improvement, but I do not see how DA2 fixed this. Now add to that recycled environments following us in the Fade itself (it doesn't look as weird as the Fade in Origins, which imo is bad), how pifitful the pride demon was, and Orsino coming out of nowhere, and I personally felt the Fade in DA2 was worse than the one in Origins.

It wasn't 6 hours long and combat only, and that was a huge criticism of DA:O's Fade. Bioware uses the scalpel too much when they respond to criticism, but they respond to it. 

[Dave of Canada]

Zoikster wrote...

No they weren't. Romancing them gave me no tough decisions.

Andersmancers want a word with you.

[Vormaerin]

Zoikster wrote...


*SPOILERS*
There were so many more variations in DA:O you could have killed Loghaine, Kinged Alistair, make the daughter queen, keep your relationship w Alistair.  You could also get Morrigan pregnant etc.Not to mention all the different origin stories. There is just no comparison.

The Loghain vs Alistair decision in DAO is no different than the decision you have to make about Anders in DA2.

Maybe you don't like the scale of the decisions.  Choosing a king may seem cooler to you than the smaller scale decisions you make during chapter 3 (mainly about which individuals to offer mercy to and which faction to be identified with).  But that's not related to the linearity of the game play.

The Landsmeet meeting in DA:O is a big fat "haha, everything you did in the first 80% of the game is irrelevant" moment.  No matter how many friends or enemies you've made or what arrangements you've set up, the whole game is decided by a one on one vs Loghain.   Every single lord in Ferelden except Eamon could be thoroughly behind Loghain and you can still just whack him and take over.  La de dah.

I can understand if you don't like being merely a local champion making decisions about the fate of individuals and small groups rather than being an godlike figure appointing rulers left and right.  But both games are linear.  Bioware doesn't make "Branching plot" games.   The most you ever get are 'left corridor vs right corridor" decisions.  Both DA:O and DA2 have those.

In some ways, you have more meaningful decisions in DA2.  Its just that those decisions are about Hawke's motivations, not about who is king in the epilogue.   Did you try to stop the war with the Qunari or did you help Patrice start it?  Did you help or oppose Anders and Merrill?

Its different.  It may not suit you.  But its not more linear.

Modifié par Vormaerin, 14 août 2011 - 09:52 .

[Zanallen]

Zoikster wrote...

I would give him credit if he said it was just a few things broken. But flat-out said DA:O was busted. He didn't go into specifics, which is why (if you can read) I asked for clarification.

He said there were things in Origins that were busted and that is why they were removed. He did not say that Origins as a whole was busted. Stop being so confrontational and make sure you are correctly understanding the quotes.

[Zoikster]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Zoikster wrote...

No they weren't. Romancing them gave me no tough decisions.

Andersmancers want a word with you.

SPOILERS
Not an Anders fan. I've romanced Fen and Isabelle. I loved being able to kill Anders at the end. Joy 

Modifié par Zoikster, 14 août 2011 - 09:48 .

[TEWR]

PresidentCowboy wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

But really, the issue isn't that DAII had no choices. It's that DAII made those choices mean nothing. You make a choice, and the same thing happens, despite the choice you made being one that shouldn't lead to that conclusion.

Or, in some instances, DAII gave you no choice at all.

Same goes for Origins.

in some cases yes. You're forced to be a Grey Warden (edit: though they do give you a good reason for that). You're forced to be a Grey Warden that loves Ferelden.

But... you're also able to put Bhelen or Harrowmont on the throne. And certain people in Orzammar can shed some light on who the better king is. A merchant tells you that Bhelen would bring in more gold for Orzammar, while Zevran can tell you that Harrowmont is a weak king (at least that's what I'm thinking. I remember reading a post that said the Bhelen-Harrowmont thing could be avoided if you brought Zevran to meet with Dulin Forender).

Origins' main problem with choices is relying more on telling than showing.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 14 août 2011 - 09:50 .

[Zoikster]

[quote]Vormaerin wrote...

[quote]Zoikster wrote...


[/quote]
*SPOILERS*
There were so many more variations in DA:O you could have killed Loghaine, Kinged Alistair, make the daughter queen, keep your relationship w Alistair.  You could also get Morrigan pregnant etc.Not to mention all the different origin stories. There is just no comparison.

[/quote]

The Loghain vs Alistair decision in DAO is no different than the decision you have to make about Anders in DA2.

Maybe you don't like the scale of the decisions.  Choosing a king may seem cooler to you than the smaller scale decisions you make during chapter 3 (mainly about which individuals to offer mercy to and which faction to be identified with).  But that's not related to the linearity of the game play.

The Landsmeet meeting in DA:O is a big fat "haha, everything you did in the first 80% of the game is irrelevant" moment.  No matter how many friends or enemies you've made or what arrangements you've set up, the whole game is decided by a one on one vs Loghain.   Every single lord in Ferelden except Eamon could be thoroughly behind Loghain and you can still just whack him and take over.  La de dah.

I can understand if you don't like being merely a local champion making decisions about the fate of individuals and small groups rather than being an godlike figure appointing rulers left and right.  But both games are linear.  Bioware doesn't make "Branching plot" games.   The most you ever get are 'left corridor vs right corridor" decisions.  Both DA:O and DA2 have those.

In some ways, you have more meaningful decisions in DA2.  Its just that those decisions are about Hawke's motivations, not about who is king in the epilogue.   Did you try to stop the war with the Qunari or did you help Patrice start it?  Did you help or oppose Anders and Merrill?

Its different.  It may not suit you.  But its not more linear.

[/quote]

The only meaningful decision I got in DA 2 was whether to side with Templars or mages. I disagree, the lack of choices make this game much more linear. We'll have to agree to disagree.

Modifié par Zoikster, 14 août 2011 - 09:50 .

[Zoikster]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

PresidentCowboy wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

But really, the issue isn't that DAII had no choices. It's that DAII made those choices mean nothing. You make a choice, and the same thing happens, despite the choice you made being one that shouldn't lead to that conclusion.

Or, in some instances, DAII gave you no choice at all.

Same goes for Origins.

in some cases yes. You're forced to be a Grey Warden (edit: though they do give you a good reason for that). You're forced to be a Grey Warden that loves Ferelden.

But... you're also able to put Bhelen or Harrowmont on the throne. And certain people in Orzammar can shed some light on who the better king is. A merchant tells you that Bhelen would bring in more gold for Orzammar, while Zevran can tell you that Harrowmont is a weak king (at least that's what I'm thinking. I remember reading a post that said the Bhelen-Harrowmont thing could be avoided if you brought Zevran to meet with Dulin Forender).

Origins' main problem with choices is relying more on telling than showing.

That too, that was a lot of fun. I put Bhelen in power.

[In Exile]

Monica21 wrote...
I agree that they were grinds and that people didn't like them. I can't argue with that. But "I don't like it" is different from "it's broken." It's a little like people not being able to find the Puzzle Box in Morrowind so the Oblivion developers put a compass and quest markers everywhere. It's a little overkill.

Laidlaw didn't say "All objective standards suggest that it is non-functional, and the only hope is to reconstruct it from the ground up." He said "we felt were busted." 

I felt like Act I of DA2 was much more of a grind than anything that happened in the Fade or the Deep Roads in Origins. Act I was a lot of meaningless stuff that I was only doing because I had a vague remembrance of needing to fund an expedition.

This was the same design as BGII, with raising $$. I'm sure that Bioware thought fans would love the opportunity to invent motives for why Hawke is doing these quests, to just explore the world without being tied down by a main quest, and a return to a design from the days of BG1-BG2. 

This was, once again, Bioware responding to the criticism that DA:O forced you too strongly into one mission as a Grey Warden, and to some extent that hampered the ability to RP. This is also why the 3-year gaps said nothing about what Hawke did: so those who think RP is "filling in the blanks" can do so.

And it flopped. 

[hoorayforicecream]

Zoikster wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Zoikster wrote...

No they weren't. Romancing them gave me no tough decisions.

Andersmancers want a word with you.

SPOILERS
Not an Anders fan. I've romanced Fen and Isabelle. I loved being able to kill Anders at the end. Joy 

So... because you didn't see part of the game, you dismiss it from being relevant to the discussion?

[TEWR]

The only meaningful decision I got in DA 2 was whether to side with Templars or mages.

I don't consider that as meaningful as it should've been, due to what Orsino did because the devs apparently wanted another boss fight. Which could've been done without Orsino doing what he did for pro-mage people.

[Zoikster]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Zoikster wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Zoikster wrote...

No they weren't. Romancing them gave me no tough decisions.

Andersmancers want a word with you.

SPOILERS
Not an Anders fan. I've romanced Fen and Isabelle. I loved being able to kill Anders at the end. Joy 

So... because you didn't see part of the game, you dismiss it from being relevant to the discussion?

I didn't say that all, you just felt the need to be snarky. I was being nice. 

Modifié par Zoikster, 14 août 2011 - 09:53 .

[In Exile]

Zoikster wrote...
It doesn't matter, they were choices I enjoyed being able to make.

It matters if you say the plot branches. If I say a car can fly, someone points out it can't, and I respond with "it doesn't matter, I feel like it can fly!" people will just think I'm unhinged. 

Zoikster wrote...
Nope, I'm pretty sure my choices had impacts. Like if I push Alistair to become king, he wants to breakup. Or if I kill Loghaine, he can't join my party

DA2 had the same "impacts". If you help Grace, you get quests to help mages in Act II. If you bring Grace & the Starkhaven mages in, you get to hunt apostates in Act II. If you side with Orsino right at the start in Act III, you get anti-Meredith quests (you find out about a potential noble revolt). If you side with Meredith in ActIII you get to see a templar "death squad" in action. 

If you side with Topor in the Fade, Fenryiel can become a terrible abomination. Otherwise he could be Tranquil. OR he could go to Tenvinter. Lots of choice. 

If you save Renvil Harrowmont, a legitimate challenger to Bhelen lives. Otherwise, Harrowmont's line dies out.

This is all "impact" if we actually count DA:O's choices as "impact". 

[Zoikster]

I guess it'll be argued it didn't matter I put Bhelen in power because I still had to fight the arch demon.

Modifié par Zoikster, 14 août 2011 - 09:55 .