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[King Cousland]

 I know this has been discussed many times, but here goes:

* Both Flemeth and Andraste were magi (possibly in Andraste's case)
* Both characters were betrayed by their husbands
* Both characters supposedly led and were defeated by great armies
* Finally, the clincher, Marethari mentions a debt she owes to Asha'bellanar. Andraste freed the elven slaves, so surely the modern day elves would owe her a debt?

[Darth Wraith]

First of all, I think saying that Andraste was a mage is a bit of a stretch. Granted, the Chantry could have edited out that particular bit of embarassing information, but still. Second, I always got the impression that the debt Marethari referred to was something more personal. Otherwise you'd have to consider that either A) Marethari was the only person in the world to figure out that Flemeth was really Andraste, or all Keepers know that Flemeth is Andraste and just never told anyone.

I'm not saying that the theory is necessarily wrong, but I think your arguments are flawed.

[King Cousland]

But why would the Keepers tell shems Flemeth's true identity? And saying Andraste possessed magical talent isn't one of my theories. It's one of the more popular speculations, it's even explored in the game.

[whykikyouwhy]

This thread might be best in the Dragon Age II Official Campaign Quests and Story (SPOILERS) forum, since spoilers are bound to occur.

In your theory, which persona came first? Andraste? (who then became Flemeth?) Or Flemeth? (who somehow became Andraste and then shifted back to Flemeth?)

And so...some spoilers below...

On Sundermount, when Merrill greets Flemeth, the Witch asks the mage is she knows who she is, to which Merrill replies in the affirmative, if some vaguely. I think Flemeth is far older than Andraste, and far more powerful.

[svenus97]

Flemeth isn't Andraste. Andraste was crazy, Flemeth is awesome.

[Northern Sun]

As long as the "Sandal is the Maker" theory isn't true as well, I'm okay with it.

[caradoc2000]

Both characters begin with "F" - except Andraste.

[DarkDragon777]

I tend to agree with the "Flemeth is Fen'Harel" theory. This would explain why she has a great understanding of ancient magics, has an infamous reputation with the elves, and is very old, powerful, and knowledgeable.

[Hatchetman77]

So if Flemith IS Andraste then COULD Andraste win in a fight against the Archdemon?

[devSin]

DarkDragon777 wrote...

I tend to agree with the "Flemeth is Fen'Harel" theory. This would explain why she has a great understanding of ancient magics, has an infamous reputation with the elves, and is very old, powerful, and knowledgeable.

Except that she doesn't really seem to care about the elves. At all, really. It's always when the humans come around that she intervenes.

It would be awesome if she was Andraste, and she's all bitter now because she's really still alive but they used her to make some stupid religion, saying she was burned at the stake and went to join the Maker. Talk about a chip on your shoulder...

[whykikyouwhy]

devSin wrote...

DarkDragon777 wrote...

I tend to agree with the "Flemeth is Fen'Harel" theory. This would explain why she has a great understanding of ancient magics, has an infamous reputation with the elves, and is very old, powerful, and knowledgeable.

Except that she doesn't really seem to care about the elves. At all, really. It's always when the humans come around that she intervenes.

It would be awesome if she was Andraste, and she's all bitter now because she's really still alive but they used her to make some stupid religion, saying she was burned at the stake and went to join the Maker. Talk about a chip on your shoulder...

Re: The bolded bit - I got the impression that she does at least have some respect for the elves.


SPOILERS....

Same scenario on Sundermount - Merrill bows to her, Flemeth asks her the odd identity question, then tells Merrill to rise as "the People {elves} kneel too quickly" (or something similar - I think I have the verb wrong). That at least shows that she knows of the elven history, and may indicate respect for who they are, and what they have undergone. It's a vague statement, yes. And while it doesn't show an invested interest exactly, it's some interest.

[King Cousland]

I think that's even more suggestive of her being Andraste. I mean, the elves were freed from one set of masters only to fight for Andraste and then be enslaved again.

[whykikyouwhy]

Except that her tone is still distant - nothing that hints of "I fought for you in the past." If anything, I read it as "oh yes, times were harsh on you and your people - you should not submit again." Advice, really. Guidance. But not so much of a "I fought for you" vibe, imo.

She gives Merrill a warning about her path, but for the most part, Flemeth detaches herself from the workings of mortals, save for those she rescues or needs to "move" somewhere to her will and for her own reasons. And those machinations seem to be of a broader scope than the affairs of the elves.

[King Cousland]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Except that her tone is still distant - nothing that hints of "I fought for you in the past." If anything, I read it as "oh yes, times were harsh on you and your people - you should not submit again." Advice, really. Guidance. But not so much of a "I fought for you" vibe, imo.

She gives Merrill a warning about her path, but for the most part, Flemeth detaches herself from the workings of mortals, save for those she rescues or needs to "move" somewhere to her will and for her own reasons. And those machinations seem to be of a broader scope than the affairs of the elves.

I agree that that Flemeth's actions have larger consequneces than we can see or predict, but I think Marethari would have told only her First who Flemeth is, so Merrill would know, but Marethari may have only told her a little. 

Modifié par harkness72, 14 août 2011 - 11:36 .

[Sutekh]

devSin wrote...

Except that she doesn't really seem to care about the elves.

I got a very different impression from the Stolen Throne, at least regarding the Dalish (can't tell more because no spoilers policy etc...)

[devSin]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Re: The bolded bit - I got the impression that she does at least have some respect for the elves.

Sure, she has respect. She probably has respect for the dwarves, too, but she doesn't see them as often, because she lives in a forest.

I mean, she swooped down to save your Warden, who was fighting to save a human kingdom (even if she just wanted baby dragons, with her human daughter by the way). She helped (and exacted a mysterious promise from) Maric, who went on to become king of said human kingdom. She helps the Hawkes, a human family, flee the Blight affecting a human kingdom (seriously, just give it to the Keeper since they're going that direction anyway).

She's used the elves in the past (they rounded up Maric, they have the secret mumbo-jumbo to un-amuletize her, they know who she is), but where are her great conquests for elvendom? And why wouldn't her ears be pointy?

I'm not saying that it forbids her from being an elven god, but she's certainly spending a bit much time fussing over the humans instead of haunting the Fade and casting a shadow on elf babies and stuff.

Sutekh wrote...

I got a very different impression from the Stolen Throne, at least regarding the Dalish (can't tell more because no spoilers policy etc...)

As long as you don't get too specific, I think it's OK. It's not important to the plot, and it happens in the first hundred pages (which, for David, is like the first two chapters).

There's a bit above that goes a bit too far for DA2, but I enjoyed writing it so much that I just have to leave it in. It's not like anybody else observes the rule, anyway.

Modifié par devSin, 14 août 2011 - 11:52 .

[Sutekh]

devSin wrote...
As long as you don't get too specific, I think it's OK. It's not important to the plot, and it happens in the first hundred pages (which, for David, is like the first two chapters).

Will try then. It's the bit near the beginning in the Korcari Wilds. Not much is said, but I got the impression that she was actively collaborating with them. They capture the two protagonists in her name, don't hurt them, because she asked them not to, and deliver them to her. In return, she seems to protect the local Dalish.

Although, thinking of it, it might have been more of a one-way thing (them "working" for her) than a collaboration per se. But she seemed closer to the Dalish because of their wild-ish nature, as opposed to humans, dwarves and city elves, and, more importantly, they don't fear her.

[whykikyouwhy]

devSin wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Re: The bolded bit - I got the impression that she does at least have some respect for the elves.

Sure, she has respect. She probably has respect for the dwarves, too, but she doesn't see them as often, because she lives in a forest.

I mean, she swooped down to save your Warden, who was fighting to save a human kingdom (even if she just wanted baby dragons, with her human daughter by the way). She helped (and exacted a mysterious promise from) Maric, who went on to become king of said human kingdom. She helps the Hawkes, a human family, flee the Blight affecting a human kingdom (seriously, just give it to the Keeper since they're going that direction anyway).

She's used the elves in the past (they rounded up Maric, they have the secret mumbo-jumbo to un-amuletize her, they know who she is), but where are her great conquests for elvendom? And why wouldn't her ears be pointy?

I'm not saying that it forbids her from being an elven god, but she's certainly spending a bit much time fussing over the humans instead of haunting the Fade and casting a shadow on elf babies and stuff.

She's involved only enough so as to build out her army.

And maybe she just wants a bunch of humans for playthings. I'm sure she's bored of playing the old hag who lives in the woods. Maybe she has a hankering for some Orlesian cheese and needs someone without hair-horns to fetch it for her.

[devSin]

Sutekh wrote...

Although, thinking of it, it might have been more of a one-way thing (them "working" for her) than a collaboration per se. But she seemed closer to the Dalish because of their wild-ish nature, as opposed to humans, dwarves and city elves, and, more importantly, they don't fear her.

Yeah, like I said, I think she's just using them. And they expressed remorse at turning over the pair (since they assumed she'd feed 'em to the trees) to the mean old hermit witch.

They know about her, because she's old and powerful and all naturey and stuff, and they have dealings with her because they usually live in her back yard, but she doesn't seem to take much interest in them that's ever exposed to the player/reader.

And she didn't ask for a promise in exchange for assistance from an elf. She did it from a human. And every time we see her, she's pulling for the shems.

[Jamesnew2]

Northern Sun wrote...

As long as the "Sandal is the Maker" theory isn't true as well, I'm okay with it.

Sandal the maker? how absurd... everyone knows Varric is the maker.

[PorcelynDoll]

lol Sandal the maker. I kind of got the impression from Witch hunt that Flemeth is an archdemon or is possessed by one. When you ask Morrigan why Flemeth doesn't look like an abomination you don't get an answer.

[whykikyouwhy]

I suppose I should post a new, and serious, answer to this thread. *clears throat* Flemeth is me (who happens to be an old lady who talks too much but fills out a suit of armor nicely).

Or, she's Mythal's avatar.

Sandal is a hybrid salamander who swam in lyrium-laden waters.

Whereas Varric is the storyteller and trickster coyote all rolled into one (so in Thedas, that makes him Fen'Harel). I pay him well for his hyperbole.

[Darth Wraith]

devSin wrote...

I'm not saying that it forbids her from being an elven god, but she's certainly spending a bit much time fussing over the humans instead of haunting the Fade and casting a shadow on elf babies and stuff.

I think we should distinguish between "Flemeth is an Elven god" and "Flemeth is worshipped as a god by the Elves". I too think there's a chance Flemeth and Fen'harel are the same, but that doesn't mean Fen'harel is an Elven god specifically. I suspect that the gods of Thedas, be they Elven gods, the Old Gods or anything else, are what they are irrespective of the views of those who choose to worship them.

[whykikyouwhy]

Darth Wraith wrote...

devSin wrote...

I'm not saying that it forbids her from being an elven god, but she's certainly spending a bit much time fussing over the humans instead of haunting the Fade and casting a shadow on elf babies and stuff.

I think we should distinguish between "Flemeth is an Elven god" and "Flemeth is worshipped as a god by the Elves". I too think there's a chance Flemeth and Fen'harel are the same, but that doesn't mean Fen'harel is an Elven god specifically. I suspect that the gods of Thedas, be they Elven gods, the Old Gods or anything else, are what they are irrespective of the views of those who choose to worship them.

Good point. It's the concept of parallel myths, or the hero with 1000 faces. A specific archetype, a specific quality or aspect, but with different faces/facades based on culture, or intent.

As such, I suspect that the Maker is something other than the male father-figure the Chantry has made him out to be. He may be Fen'Harel with the "Maker" disguise.

Same with Flemeth...and being known as a shapeshifter may be a big neon hint for us to view her in that light.