138 réponses à ce sujet

[marshalleck]

didymos1120 wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

If you feel strongly about something Bioware has done, speak your opinion strongly. Don't be meek & mild.

There's a difference between speaking forcefully and not mincing words and just being a complete @sshole though.  Surely you can recognize the distinction.

Sometimes being an **** is the only way to get the message across. Frankly, DA2 deserved all the hate and rage it got.

When someone takes a crap in a box and sells it to you for $60, "thank you sirs may I have another!" is not a healthy response.

Modifié par marshalleck, 16 août 2011 - 02:56 .

[Dragoonlordz]

The article I found ok, some of the comments in here specifically about "be grateful" is not.

There is difference between being grateful for creating the things you enjoy and being grateful for what you did not. The former is fine the latter is not imho. In fact it's not even about gratitude it's merely about how you tone or word your responses.

So 'be grateful' annoys me. Praise what like and criticise what you did not. But do both in way that is respectful.

P.s. Fanatics annoy me more than critics. ~Just saying... Because critics most of them tend to attack a aspect of a game while fanatics tend to more often attack the critic as a person.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 16 août 2011 - 02:59 .

[SandTrout]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

Have you ever heard the term, "The customer is always right?"

Yeah, it's not used much any more. Too many people taking advantage.

[RAF1940]

Modifié par RAF1940, 16 août 2011 - 02:58 .

[marshalleck]

Okay, I lol'ed. That was unexpected.

[Il Divo]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

@il divo: Your response is the kind of thing that proves that there's truth in what the author wrote. Maybe you missed the part in the article where the author links his other article wherein he indicates his disappointment with DA2? I think this article's point is that one can be critical and voice one's opinons without acting like an ungrateful two-year-old throwing a tantrum.

I read the whole thing, including the portion about DA2. The article was pure melodrama.

"We shouldn't abuse Bioware!" "They treat us like family!"

These kinds of comments don't put me in a very understanding mood. To me, it is the tone of someone who is a bit too invested in what Bioware does. If the writer had kept the message, and ripped out all the melodrama, I'd be more inclined to take them seriously. 

Ultimately, this is an internet forum, where people are free to post whatever they want, while remaining anonymous. It's inevitable that we're going to get a few idiots who criticize everything Bioware does, so this is hardly new. With the business these guys have chosen, they can't let a few "abusive" opinions ruin their day, otherwise they're done for.

Modifié par Il Divo, 16 août 2011 - 03:05 .

[Homebound]

Im Cmdr Shepard and this is my favourite anti bioware-bashing article on the internet.

Modifié par Hellbound555, 16 août 2011 - 02:59 .

[didymos1120]

marshalleck wrote...

When someone takes a crap in a box and sells it to you for $60, "thank you sirs may I have another!" is not a healthy response.

Right, because that's clearly the sort of thing I meant by "speaking forcefully and not mincing words".   So, OK, I guess you can't see the distinction.

[Rockworm503]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

Rockworm503 wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Rockworm503 wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Fanboy crawling up Bioware's ass. Terrible article.

Yay thank you for proving me right.
We have to have 2 extremes here.
WE HAVE TO
A.  be 100% hating on everything
or
B. Fanboys.

No such thing as a middle ground ever.
By all means continue being dicks to the people who make the games you love it helps them so much.

Edit: 50 bucks that anyone who calls the article bad and all about fanboys didn't even read it.

This isn't the first time I've seen angst and emotional hand-wringing over how horribly "we" treat [developer], and how "we" are so fortunate that they see fit to bestow upon our unwashed masses great gifts of generosity, and how "we" are so awful and treat them so poorly in return, etc. etc.

Whatever. Typical fanboy stockholm syndrome nonsense. 

If you feel strongly about something Bioware has done, speak your opinion strongly. Don't be meek.

I'm not surprised this is your response.
You didn't read it because anything that challenges your "everything bioware does sucks" mentality.
It isn't fanboyism to ask for a little civility?  or is it?  I guess it is then call me a fanboy because I would rather have people treat each other with respect than use buzzwords and make up things just to badmouth a game company.
the part in the article that says "its like kicking santa in the nuts for giving you a green farrari instead of a red one."
In your case I imagine its more like kicking santa for giving you both but not having the decency to adding a blue one as well.
And then go on to call everyone who didn't do the same a fanboy.

That's ridiculous. Bioware isn't Santa. WE are the ones keeping Bioware in business; WE are the ones paying the bills. Thus, it is not outside of our responsibility to commend a job well done, and make darn well sure to condemn a job poorly done.

Have you ever heard the term, "The customer is always right?"

So its more than perfectly ok to treat them like scum?

[marshalleck]

didymos1120 wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

When someone takes a crap in a box and sells it to you for $60, "thank you sirs may I have another!" is not a healthy response.

Right, because that's clearly the sort of thing I meant by "speaking forcefully and not mincing words".   So, OK, I guess you can't see the distinction.

Oh, I can. I just disagree with "civility at all times."

Civility when it's deserved. Respect when it's earned. 

[Icinix]

Yep.

If only they didn't listen to people about the Mako and the Elevators after ME1.

We'd be in a much better world.

[Rockworm503]

marshalleck wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

When someone takes a crap in a box and sells it to you for $60, "thank you sirs may I have another!" is not a healthy response.

Right, because that's clearly the sort of thing I meant by "speaking forcefully and not mincing words".   So, OK, I guess you can't see the distinction.

Oh, I can. I just disagree with "civility at all times."

Civility when it's deserved. Respect when it's earned. 

Which is never in your book.

[marshalleck]

Rockworm503 wrote...
Which is never in your book.

I've had plenty of nice things to say about Bioware, particularly their art & audio teams.

[marshalleck]

Ferris95 wrote...

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

SandTrout wrote...

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

Have you ever heard the term, "The customer is always right?"

Yeah, it's not used much any more. Too many people taking advantage.

Probably so, but the basic idea--that the customers are paying the bills, and thus the company can't just thumb their nose at them--remains true.

When people act like insane screaming children who offer no suggestions of improvement, then the customer stops being right and starts being a waste of time because at this point nothing will satisfy them. <_<

if the customer feels the product delivered is a flaming wreck that's beyond salvaging, they have every right to express that. 

[Darth Krytie]

This article was excellent. I think there's a world of difference between saying "you suck and so does your mum" and "there are some issues in this game that need addressing" and I can tell you that the Devs are more likely to take your crit into account if you do the latter instead of the former.

Bioware isn't perfect and neither are their devs. They are human after all. However, unlike any other company I've bought products from, I feel like they're the only ones who genuinely care about whether I liked the product or not after the fact. They welcome interaction and respond to us. Which, by the way, isn't something they owe us. JKRowling never popped an email to me to apologise for the crap ending she gave Snape. Bioware is awesome with that and I don't want that to stop because some people feel the anonymity of the internet gives them leave to be a jackass.

[marshalleck]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

I can't believe I'm agreeing with marsh. *gasp*

lol

Everyone sees the light eventually. 

[Darth Krytie]

marshalleck wrote...

Ferris95 wrote...

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

SandTrout wrote...

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

Have you ever heard the term, "The customer is always right?"

Yeah, it's not used much any more. Too many people taking advantage.

Probably so, but the basic idea--that the customers are paying the bills, and thus the company can't just thumb their nose at them--remains true.

When people act like insane screaming children who offer no suggestions of improvement, then the customer stops being right and starts being a waste of time because at this point nothing will satisfy them. <_<

if the customer feels the product delivered is a flaming wreck that's beyond salvaging, they have every right to express that. 

But you wouldn't dump a bowl of soup on the head of the chef in a restaurant if you hated the flavour. You'd send it back, hopefully politely, and ask for something else. At worst, you'd send it back with a few precise and sharp words and never eat there again. It's not about expressing disappointment or discontent, it's about doing it in a way that will make your opinion heard instead of just letting the other person know you're a douchebag. People take crit better if they're not being insulted or yelled at...they're more willing to listen. If you're OTT rude or infamatory, people are more apt to dismiss your opinions as flames or angry noise.

[AtreiyaN7]

@il divo: The author doesn't mean that literally, but withouut a doubt, BW has treated us fairly well over the years and do listen to us. As the author pointed out, BW clearly listened to fans who wanted a femShep model equivalent in quality to maleShep. They got their wish, even being able to vote on it, but what happened? Like the author correctly pointed out, there was whining about the blonde femShep option, replete with complaints about what BW did. BW does seem to try pretty hard communicate with fans, and the asinine behavior here is pretty uncalled for, or are you cool with tings every time someone didn't like feature <x> or didn't like the writing and calls a dev or a specific writer a "loser" or something worse? I've been here enough to see that sort of thing many, many times.

[Gatt9]

marshalleck wrote...

Rockworm503 wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Fanboy crawling up Bioware's ass. Terrible article.

Yay thank you for proving me right.
We have to have 2 extremes here.
WE HAVE TO
A.  be 100% hating on everything
or
B. Fanboys.

No such thing as a middle ground ever.
By all means continue being dicks to the people who make the games you love it helps them so much.

Edit: 50 bucks that anyone who calls the article bad and all about fanboys didn't even read it.

This isn't the first time I've seen angst and emotional hand-wringing over how horribly "we" treat [developer], and how "we" are so fortunate that they see fit to bestow upon our unwashed masses great gifts of generosity, and how "we" are so awful and treat them so poorly in return, etc. etc.

Whatever. Typical fanboy stockholm syndrome nonsense. 

If you feel strongly about something Bioware has done, speak your opinion strongly. Don't be meek & mild.

Pretty much,  this is exactly how the Fallout 3 boards were.  "You ungrateful wretches for not accepting whatever the Developer deign to give you!" and "They're a developer,  so they know everything and they're *always* right,  who are you to disagree with them!". 

The developers chose this path,  they chose to remove RPG elements in order to cater to a completely different market,  and as consumers,  it's our right and duty to express to them that there is a product more than a few of us would rather have.

This mentality,  the Developers are Gods on High and we should just accept anything they give to us,  is no small part of why the industry is such a complete disaster that it's dropping double digit percentages month after month.

@il divo: The author doesn't mean that literally, but withouut a doubt, BW has treated us fairly well over the years and do listen to us. As the author pointed out, BW clearly listened to fans who wanted a femShep model equivalent in quality to maleShep. They got their wish, even being able to vote on it, but what happened? Like the author correctly pointed out, there was whining about the blonde femShep option, replete with complaints about what BW did. BW does seem to try pretty hard communicate with fans, and the asinine behavior here is pretty uncalled for, or are you cool with tings every time someone didn't like feature <x> or didn't like the writing and calls a dev or a specific writer a "loser" or something worse? I've been here enough to see that sort of thing many, many times.

Treated us fairly?  I take it you didn't read any of the post-DA2 articles?  I did.  I discovered that it was my fault DA2 bombed,  because I like RPG mechanics,  well developed dialogue systems,  and sensical situations where people don't warp into being 10ft above ground,  explode at random,  and jump around like a meth addict channeling a kung-fu master.

Yeah,  they treated me so fairly that I won't buy another game certain Bioware employees are attached to.

Nevermind the fact that their "Listening" only works when it happens to coincide with EA's desire for Call of Duty's sales figures.  Not much listening going on about the fans who want RPG mechanics in their RPGs.