138 réponses à ce sujet

[Jedi31293]

Good article, even if it is a tad melodramatic. The consumer must never forget the fact that Bioware is a company. The end goal of a company is to make money. Sure, Bioware does an amazing job interacting with fans and responding to opinions expressed by loyal customers (most of the time...I'm looking at you DA2). In the end, however, fan interaction is just another way to create a product with the most chance of selling. This forum is essentially a free advertising, polling, and response gathering device that helps Bioware create a game that will sell, and in the end, make money.

There is a fine line between fan loyalty and mindless admiration of a company regardless of their mistakes. This article blurs that line. When all is said and done, all we can simply do is express our opinions in the most intelligent and polite way possible and hope Bioware listens.

[spirosz]

The thing about this that bothers me, is that there's usually a few good posts that are relevant towards constructive criticism, but then they are overwhelmed by dozens of "this game sucks, but I can't think of anyway to make it better, this game just sucks, Bioware, you are horrible at making games, etc." There's a lot of negative posts, which is fine, but please back them up with something you want out of the next game or something that they can use for their upcoming titles. Sure, they can't please everyone, but they do listen. People wanted more female Shepard attention and we've gotten it, people wanted to hear more about the rpg elements (rpg is subjective) for Mass Effect 3 and they've shown quite a few things. these are just to name a few.

I'm really glad to be apart of this community, but sometimes it gets over the top and frustrating to look at. What do you expect Bioware to do when there tends to be more posts consisting of no feedback, but just bashing of a game. They can't improve without getting constructive feedback, negative or positive.

[KotorEffect3]

The haters remind me of people that always choose the bottom right response in the dialog tree.

[ThePwener]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

The haters remind me of people that always choose the bottom right response in the dialog tree.

I'd respond in a very ugly manner, but that would just prove you right. I'll leave you to your BW ass kissing.

[marshalleck]

Darth Krytie wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Ferris95 wrote...

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

SandTrout wrote...

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

Have you ever heard the term, "The customer is always right?"

Yeah, it's not used much any more. Too many people taking advantage.

Probably so, but the basic idea--that the customers are paying the bills, and thus the company can't just thumb their nose at them--remains true.

When people act like insane screaming children who offer no suggestions of improvement, then the customer stops being right and starts being a waste of time because at this point nothing will satisfy them. <_<

if the customer feels the product delivered is a flaming wreck that's beyond salvaging, they have every right to express that. 

But you wouldn't dump a bowl of soup on the head of the chef in a restaurant if you hated the flavour. You'd send it back, hopefully politely, and ask for something else. At worst, you'd send it back with a few precise and sharp words and never eat there again. It's not about expressing disappointment or discontent, it's about doing it in a way that will make your opinion heard instead of just letting the other person know you're a douchebag. People take crit better if they're not being insulted or yelled at...they're more willing to listen. If you're OTT rude or infamatory, people are more apt to dismiss your opinions as flames or angry noise.

I might, were it fetid enough. And frankly if you're so irate that you're going to break down into expletives and have no intention of frequenting an establishment again, you might as well loudly declare "F--- you!" and be done with it. At least you might derive some small personal satisfaction from doing so, in which case the exercise was not completely pointless after all. 

Modifié par marshalleck, 16 août 2011 - 04:38 .

[Darth Krytie]

marshalleck wrote...
 I might, were it fetid enough. And frankly if you're so irate that you're going to break down into expletives and have no intention of frequenting an establishment again, you might as well loudly declare "F--- you!" and be done with it. At least you might derive some small personal satisfaction from doing so, in which case the exercise was not completely pointless after all. 

Well, then any legitimate complaint you had would just be overridden by the fact you were acting like a complete and total jackass that most people wouldn't take seriously.

The chef wouldn't say, chargrined, I should alter my soup recipe. The chef would more likely feel like he was well-rid of you and hoped you never darkened the doorstep of the restaurant again.

[KotorEffect3]

ThePwener wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

The haters remind me of people that always choose the bottom right response in the dialog tree.

I'd respond in a very ugly manner, but that would just prove you right. I'll leave you to your BW ass kissing.

So not being a dick is ass kissing now?

[Massadonious1]

Well, I don't think that anyone is saying that criticism isn't warranted, it's just how it's conveyed.

There is pointing out legitimate flaws within the game/product, and then there is "OMG DIS GAME DA WURST EVARZ."

One is actually constructive, the other just makes you feel better.

[marshalleck]

Darth Krytie wrote...

marshalleck wrote...
 I might, were it fetid enough. And frankly if you're so irate that you're going to break down into expletives and have no intention of frequenting an establishment again, you might as well loudly declare "F--- you!" and be done with it. At least you might derive some small personal satisfaction from doing so, in which case the exercise was not completely pointless after all. 

Well, then any legitimate complaint you had would just be overridden by the fact you were acting like a complete and total jackass that most people wouldn't take seriously.

The chef wouldn't say, chargrined, I should alter my soup recipe. The chef would more likely feel like he was well-rid of you and hoped you never darkened the doorstep of the restaurant again.

And I, fully intending not to frequent his establishment again, wouldn't give a damn what he does with his noxious soup recipe. I'd be amused at the expression on his soup-covered face, though.

What is it you're failing to understand here?

Modifié par marshalleck, 16 août 2011 - 05:06 .

[ThePwener]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

ThePwener wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

The haters remind me of people that always choose the bottom right response in the dialog tree.

I'd respond in a very ugly manner, but that would just prove you right. I'll leave you to your BW ass kissing.

So not being a dick is ass kissing now?

Call it what you want, but point is, whoever wrote that article is plain wrong. He makes it sound like we treat them like utter **** nwhen we don't. I even doubt he's a forum member, but I really don't care.

Please continue posting hipocrite statements all you want.

[KotorEffect3]

ThePwener wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

ThePwener wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

The haters remind me of people that always choose the bottom right response in the dialog tree.

I'd respond in a very ugly manner, but that would just prove you right. I'll leave you to your BW ass kissing.

So not being a dick is ass kissing now?

Call it what you want, but point is, whoever wrote that article is plain wrong. He makes it sound like we treat them like utter **** nwhen we don't. I even doubt he's a forum member, but I really don't care.

Please continue posting hipocrite statements all you want.

Well considering I am not being a hypocrite you are not making sense.

[Slayer299]

The article wasn't bad, but it was waayyy too melodramatic to be taken seriously. Especially when I'm seeing, "They’ve treated us like we were part of the family," or "kicking Santa in the nuts", which is just crap.

Bioware is in the business of making games (which they love to do). I am a consumer, if I am not happy with my purchase I reserve the right to complain and criticize what I see as faults with the game and nonsense from the author about the long hours, sacrifices and such that should leave me "stunned and humbled" is just ridiculous. I'll appreciate the hours and work put in to the game, but humbled in their presence isn't one of those things.

All in all I can agree about personal attacks on any of the devs (hey moron or some such colorful metaphors) or calls for person X to be fired aren't appropriate in any way.

But I'm not ashamed of us. All of us. My annoyance is to the idiots and the personal attacks on the devs only, the games are free targets since they are products being sold.

[Darth Krytie]

marshalleck wrote...

Darth Krytie wrote...

marshalleck wrote...
 I might, were it fetid enough. And frankly if you're so irate that you're going to break down into expletives and have no intention of frequenting an establishment again, you might as well loudly declare "F--- you!" and be done with it. At least you might derive some small personal satisfaction from doing so, in which case the exercise was not completely pointless after all. 

Well, then any legitimate complaint you had would just be overridden by the fact you were acting like a complete and total jackass that most people wouldn't take seriously.

The chef wouldn't say, chargrined, I should alter my soup recipe. The chef would more likely feel like he was well-rid of you and hoped you never darkened the doorstep of the restaurant again.

And I, fully intending not to frequent his establishment again, wouldn't give a damn what he does with his noxious soup recipe. I'd be amused at the expression on his soup-covered face, though.

What is it you're failing to understand here?

Why people enjoy being spiteful little trolls?

[ThePwener]

Darth Krytie wrote...

Why people enjoy being spiteful little trolls?

why do people perform uncontributing posts?

[Brenon Holmes]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

That's ridiculous. Bioware isn't Santa. WE are the ones keeping Bioware in business; WE are the ones paying the bills. Thus, it is not outside of our responsibility to commend a job well done, and make darn well sure to condemn a job poorly done.

Since we're talking business... let's talk business...

Have you ever heard the term, "The customer is always right?"

Except you're not, except in a very vague sense... I get paid whether you buy the game or not. Your interaction economically with me is basically non-existant. Your specific interaction with my company is basically non-existant... you're one person (and no, you cannot speak with the voice of a larger group). :happy:

As a group of people, yes the consumers of the products that my company makes are important... but that would only really matter if you spoke with one voice, or maybe even a set of significant voices... you don't. Even this community, as a sub-set of the total group of people that purchased ME2 and or ME1 isn't even vaguely of one mind on any given subject...
Ask any question and you're likely to get at least a handful of completely divergent answers... :happy:

Given that... if you're going to work with the term "the customer is always right" perhaps it simply needs to be clarified, in that you by yourself aren't "The Customer". "The Customer" is some statistically significant portion of 3 million+ people or whatever the sales are...

All of that said, some of us come here because we *want* to. Personally, I don't have to... no one except PR / Marketing / Community actually has to (or should) interact with you guys here on the forums.

Anecdotally, I can tell you that  there have been devs that have been scared off of coming to interact precisely because of the reputation of the forums... which are largely seen as being rather negative, even outside this community. Not that that's a terrible, thing - feel free to express yourselves! Just maybe don't expect people who don't *have* to be here to want to come and take it in the face. :happy:

Now all of that said... This isn't meant as any kind of cautionary tale or anything, I'm simply trying to be honest (maybe blunt) about the situation. Personally I enjoy a lot of the interactions I have with folks here on the forums and that's something that occurs in spite of some of the sorts of "discussions" that can occur.

Modifié par Brenon Holmes, 16 août 2011 - 05:34 .

[Massadonious1]

It should be noted that the person who coined the term/made it famous eventually went out of business.

[ThePwener]

Massadonious1 wrote...

It should be noted that the person who coined the term/made it famous eventually went out of business.

lol

[Steppenwolf]

It's easy to say that Bioware listens to the fans and we abuse them but that's not really the case. Look at their recent offerings and tell me that's true. Origins was a financial and critical hit, but they they went the opposite direction of what the fans wanted for DA2. Arrival was abysmal compared to LotSB even though pretty much everyone said that LotSB was the new standard for ME2 DLC to meet. It's awesome that they have this BSN for us to congregate and share our opinions, but we're not just a bunch of ungrateful pissants whining about things not being perfect. DA2 was just a mediocre game at best and Arrival was rushed and slapped together.

[javierabegazo]

Great post Brenon.

As we say in the kitchen in the restaurant, "The customer's a jerk who doesn't know an apple from an orange"

[Brenon Holmes]

 Hopefully won't be taken out of context...  Or as something that it's not (an attack on anyone).

[leggywillow]

Brenon Holmes wrote...

 Hopefully won't be taken out of context...  Or as something that it's not (an attack on anyone).

Oh you naive, starry-eyed optimist.    Good post, though.

[Dark_Caduceus]

He was spot on with the whole "Pick a Femshep" debacle. A company like Blizzard would laugh 'till the cows come home at a request by fans to choose charcter models or designs for characters in one of their IPs.

[Phaedon]

InfiniteCuts wrote...

What a crock. Bring up any criticism, legitimate or not, reasonable or not... and the rabbid fanboys jump all over it. He's quick to give an example of what he considers "constructive" criticism... wish he'd do the same for the supposed abuse BioWare is receiving.

Which part of the attempt of denial that a significant amount of criticism is not constructive, especially here, hurt you and marsalleck more in the general area of the buttocks?

[Sisterofshane]

BasilKarlo wrote...

It's easy to say that Bioware listens to the fans and we abuse them but that's not really the case. Look at their recent offerings and tell me that's true. Origins was a financial and critical hit, but they they went the opposite direction of what the fans wanted for DA2. Arrival was abysmal compared to LotSB even though pretty much everyone said that LotSB was the new standard for ME2 DLC to meet. It's awesome that they have this BSN for us to congregate and share our opinions, but we're not just a bunch of ungrateful pissants whining about things not being perfect. DA2 was just a mediocre game at best and Arrival was rushed and slapped together.

But as a customer, insulting the devs is most likely going to "backfire" to your orignal intention.  The "customer" may be right, but remember that business reserve the right to REFUSE service to anyone.

They don't have to make any games.  They do so because they WANT to, and I thouroughly believe that all developers take pride in what they develop, even if they happen to produce something that is completely far off from what the audience expects to see.  I'm allowed to be critical, but I don't want to push these devoted people into being less inclined to churn out spectacular products for me.

Respect is earned, people.  We want the devs to respect our voices, we have to respect them first.

[Phaedon]

marshalleck wrote...
Oh, I can. I just disagree with "civility at all times."

Civility when it's deserved. Respect when it's earned. 

The fact that you have the notion that civility is an option in a public forum is an option just makes me stare in the screen in a weird manner.