85 réponses à ce sujet

[akabane_k]

feign death-she is a rogue after all
the simplest explanations are usually best

[Savber100]

akabane_k wrote...

feign death-she is a rogue after all
the simplest explanations are usually best

Well in my playthrough, I kinda decaptitated her in a kill animation. <_<

Either way, it still is a cheap retcon to suddenly explain why Leliana survived. With this logic, we can say that practically every single rogue we faced is still alive because they feigned death. 

[whykikyouwhy]

Leliana is one of the Thedas equivalent to the Nine Muses. And she is alive again through magic.

G'won...click the link.

[TobiTobsen]

Leliana is Andraste reborn.

[Macropodmum]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Leliana is one of the Thedas equivalent to the Nine Muses. And she is alive again through magic.

G'won...click the link.

Lol, I was half expecting to see Julie Andrews singing 'The hills are alive with the sound of music'

[whykikyouwhy]

While Julie Andrews is a muse (and a goddess), I felt a more classical approach was best.

But truly, I could see Leliana on roller-skates.

[Macropodmum]

Xanadu?

[whykikyouwhy]

Yes. A horrible movie with great music (and Olivia Newton-John, so that curbs some of the cringing). It's all about muses made incarnate. Maybe that's really what Leliana is. *shrug*

Or I'm just being silly. Maybe a combination of both.

[Macropodmum]

Ah ~ Those were the days...

Back on topic I guess, I think the hardest thing to understand about her being alive if you killed her was I believe she was beheaded. Now I would totally think magical place, ashes etc might stand a chance of keeping a person who had just been stabbed and mortally wounded alive, but to me beheading just seems pretty final. So maybe the problem is more with the way she was portrayed to have died than the dying itself.....

[Aradace]

Honestly, I dont care how she's still alive. The point is, no matter how it's explained, I'll never be ok with it. Why? Because it's a decision I made that was essentially ignored because the writers didnt feel like writing in an alternate character to fill Leliana's spot. The very first thing that came to mind the moment I knew she was still alive was "great, DA is turning into Dragon Ball Z. We kill a character and it's back in the next game."

The Devs may "say" they resurrected her because "they" wanted her to play a larger role in Thedas, but I suspect that sound of thousands of screaming Leliana fans shouting on the forums "Zomg!!! You killed Leliana, you're a monster and a n00b!!" had something to do with it as well.

To which, at this point, doesnt surprise me. It does, however, make me wonder if I got enough folks together to agree to it and complain enough that if we could get Loghain ret-conned as well. Not that I really would want him ret-conned, just to see if they'd do it.

Honestly, in regards to Leliana, I just dont get the attraction. I dont see it. Why do people like this character so much? I personally found her to be a religous nutjob. I honestly hated her the moment she started preaching about the maker in some way during every other party banter. It's like she can't go 5 minutes without talking about how "great the maker is". Yea, I get it Leliana, you're in love with the Maker and you'd probably felicitate him if you had the chance, go back to the chantry now please lol.

It's her personality and character that also eventually pushed me into only playing Rogues and Mages in Origins. (She's not the entire reason but definitely the majority of it.) Because neither of my Rogue choices in Origins were very "appealing". On one hand, I had Leliana, who's issues I've already stated. And on the other hand, you have Zevran. I wont start on my beef with Zevran because that's not a battle I even remotely want to be a part of. Point is, I wasnt a fan of either of them. So eventually, it pushed me to either A.) Not having a Rogue in my party or B.) Being a Rogue myself in almost all my playthroughs.

But I digress. Point is, I simply wish the writers hadnt taken the lazy route and just sucked it up and wrote in another acceptable character to fill Leliana's spot. But given the manner of how most of our choices dont really seem to matter in the grand scheme of things in DA2, I can honestly see Anders being ret-coned in the next DA game regardless if you "killed" him or not at the end of DA2. I'd be really surprised if they didnt.

Modifié par Aradace, 16 août 2011 - 10:41 .

[whykikyouwhy]

Aradace wrote...

Honestly, I dont care how she's still alive. The point is, no matter how it's explained, I'll never be ok with it. Why? Because it's a decision I made that was essentially ignored because the writers didnt feel like writing in an alternate character to fill Leliana's spot. The very first thing that came to mind the moment I knew she was still alive was "great, DA is turning into Dragon Ball Z. We kill a character and it's back in the next game."

The Devs may "say" they resurrected her because "they" wanted her to play a larger role in Thedas, but I suspect that sound of thousands of screaming Leliana fans shouting on the forums "Zomg!!! You killed Leliana, you're a monster and a n00b!!" had something to do with it as well.

To which, at this point, doesnt surprise me. It does, however, make me wonder if I got enough folks together to agree to it and complain enough that if we could get Loghain ret-conned as well. Not that I really would want him ret-conned, just to see if they'd do it.

Honestly, in regards to Leliana, I just dont get the attraction. I dont see it. Why do people like this character so much? I personally found her to be a religous nutjob. I honestly hated her the moment she started preaching about the maker in some way during every other party banter. It's like she can't go 5 minutes without talking about how "great the maker is". Yea, I get it Leliana, you're in love with the Maker and you'd probably felicitate him if you had the chance, go back to the chantry now please lol.

It's her personality and character that also eventually pushed me into only playing Rogues and Mages in Origins. (She's not the entire reason but definitely the majority of it.) Because neither of my Rogue choices in Origins were very "appealing". On one hand, I had Leliana, who's issues I've already stated. And on the other hand, you have Zevran. I wont start on my beef with Zevran because that's not a battle I even remotely want to be a part of. Point is, I wasnt a fan of either of them. So eventually, it pushed me to either A.) Not having a Rogue in my party or B.) Being a Rogue myself in almost all my playthroughs.

But I digress. Point is, I simply wish the writers hadnt taken the lazy route and just sucked it up and wrote in another acceptable character to fill Leliana's spot. But given the manner of how most of our choices dont really seem to matter in the grand scheme of things in DA2, I can honestly see Anders being ret-coned in the next DA game regardless if you "killed" him or not at the end of DA2. I'd be really surprised if they didnt.

I haven't done a great deal of research related to dev interviews or whatnot, so I don't know their stance on Leliana other than bits I have read here. But it's possible that they had Leliana's story mapped out beyond what would be in DA2 while they were crafting DA:O. They may have had her life/arc on the storyboard - all the twists and turns, including possible death and re-emergence into the series. It may not have been any knee-jerk reaction to fan outrage and foul-crying - her continuing existence may have always been in the cards.

Sure, she's a devout follower of the Maker, and yeah, she claims to have had visions (something Alistair comments on in jest), but as such, she was an interesting character in the game. In a world where magic and demons thrived, having a voice of faith was a nice foil - a way to compare the different viewpoints of the NPCs/companions and of citizens in DA:O. It added to the well-roundedness of the game. Besides, she wasn't exactly pure in mind and spirit - she could be hardened. She had a dark side. I'm sure people could give you numerous reasons for why they adore her. For me, I just felt that her character was very well done.

Modifié par whykikyouwhy, 16 août 2011 - 11:02 .

[MichaelFinnegan]

akabane_k wrote...

feign death-she is a rogue after all
the simplest explanations are usually best

So all rogues learn "feign death" by default? By the time I did The Urn of Sacred Ashes quest, she didn't even have that ability.

The simplest explanation, quite simply put, is a retcon.

[Macropodmum]

I quite liked her myself, and I don't think that I ever thought of her as fanatical about her religion, she just had a very deep faith, which was probably tied to her seeking repentence of things she had done in the past. I guess for me though I'm always looking past the exterior and for the deeper motivations (what makes them tick), therefore I guess I become less annoyed at my companions than some...

[Aradace]

@whykik - To which I wont contest. However, it would have been nice if some sort of "extra cutscene" had been added in Origins where if you killed her, it somehow gave you a "clue" that she'd probably be back in DA2. Sure, people will probably use the usual arguement of how there actually was a clue if you think about where you killed her or whatnot. Which again, is a somewhat valid point I suppose. But Im just saying that I'd have liked a more "obvious" clue that this was going to be the case.

Modifié par Aradace, 16 août 2011 - 11:26 .

[Rifneno]

TobiTobsen wrote...

Leliana is Andraste reborn.

Wha?  Leliana isn't Dumat. 

[nitefyre410]

I explain like the this ... Killing her happens in the Ultimate DA universe but in the Canon 616 DA Universe it does not happen.

The really reason of course is the choice and outcome did not import over into the save because its clear she is mean to play a bigger role down the line.

[whykikyouwhy]

@Aradace - Understandable. It's a valid concern and desire. Although, had such a cutscene existed, however brief, it might have been too much of a giveaway. The element of surprise would be lost. And what does a rogue love more if not the element of surprise.

[RagingCyclone]

Aradace wrote...

Honestly, I dont care how she's still alive. The point is, no matter how it's explained, I'll never be ok with it. Why? Because it's a decision I made that was essentially ignored because the writers didnt feel like writing in an alternate character to fill Leliana's spot. The very first thing that came to mind the moment I knew she was still alive was "great, DA is turning into Dragon Ball Z. We kill a character and it's back in the next game."

The Devs may "say" they resurrected her because "they" wanted her to play a larger role in Thedas, but I suspect that sound of thousands of screaming Leliana fans shouting on the forums "Zomg!!! You killed Leliana, you're a monster and a n00b!!" had something to do with it as well.

To which, at this point, doesnt surprise me. It does, however, make me wonder if I got enough folks together to agree to it and complain enough that if we could get Loghain ret-conned as well. Not that I really would want him ret-conned, just to see if they'd do it.

Honestly, in regards to Leliana, I just dont get the attraction. I dont see it. Why do people like this character so much? I personally found her to be a religous nutjob. I honestly hated her the moment she started preaching about the maker in some way during every other party banter. It's like she can't go 5 minutes without talking about how "great the maker is". Yea, I get it Leliana, you're in love with the Maker and you'd probably felicitate him if you had the chance, go back to the chantry now please lol.

It's her personality and character that also eventually pushed me into only playing Rogues and Mages in Origins. (She's not the entire reason but definitely the majority of it.) Because neither of my Rogue choices in Origins were very "appealing". On one hand, I had Leliana, who's issues I've already stated. And on the other hand, you have Zevran. I wont start on my beef with Zevran because that's not a battle I even remotely want to be a part of. Point is, I wasnt a fan of either of them. So eventually, it pushed me to either A.) Not having a Rogue in my party or B.) Being a Rogue myself in almost all my playthroughs.

But I digress. Point is, I simply wish the writers hadnt taken the lazy route and just sucked it up and wrote in another acceptable character to fill Leliana's spot. But given the manner of how most of our choices dont really seem to matter in the grand scheme of things in DA2, I can honestly see Anders being ret-coned in the next DA game regardless if you "killed" him or not at the end of DA2. I'd be really surprised if they didnt.

I am a Leliana fan, and I have to agree with you that the devs should have placed another character in there instead of her. I won't argue about your feelings toward her, it's your game and you like and dislike who you want. But I am quoting you because I agree with you about her appearance in DA2. It's a full retcon that dismisses what you did with her in Origins. Whether like me a player romanced her and ran away together or like yourself who killed her, both scenarios preclude her returning as Sister Nightengale. We are on opposite sides of our feelings about her, but both agree...she should not have been in DA2 either as she is portrayed or at all. I would have preferred not at all instead of what they did with her.

[T3H Fish]

I agree, there needs to be a more in-depth explanation as too WHY Leliana reappears in DA2. Her cameo didn't make enough sense to really fit in smoothly, as did Zevran's. I believe there is a rather big hint at the fact Leliana MAY re-appear in DA2 before it was released, and that was in the Leliana's Song DLC, considering Revered Mother Dorothea becomes the next Divine during the events of DA2. How she survives death at the location of the Sacred Ashes, especially if she's missing her head, I'd like to see the devs write their ways around that one.

I'm a fan of Leliana because she's not a just religious 'nut-job' as some people may see her as. She has a lot of depth, a dark past, and you can actually influence her personality in Origins. Talking to her was always fun because of the stories you can get her to tell and she really didn't 'preach' about the Maker all that much to the Warden themselves, mostly in party banter. Leliana had many facets to her personality, some you only got glimmers, which is why I think many find her to be an interesting character.

I think the only 'logical' explanation is that the devs have a 'true' or 'canonical' ending to Origins, where certain things HAD to happen in a specific manner to have some of this make sense.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Well, the devs say they got their reasons, and that we will discover more in time, and that wether or not she "died" in DA:O will have some sort of influence on her. I'm gonna stick with what the devs say.

[Aradace]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

@Aradace - Understandable. It's a valid concern and desire. Although, had such a cutscene existed, however brief, it might have been too much of a giveaway. The element of surprise would be lost. And what does a rogue love more if not the element of surprise.

Agreed but still, if it's a decison that is (and actually was) going to be essentially handwaved, I think we should have at least had a better "hint" that it was going to happen.  Instead, I ended up having a Lewis Black tweak out moment with the angry wiggling finger of death and everything lol.

At this point, even if they do give an explanation that is "acceptable".  It's too little too late as far as Im concerned.  Now if at some point they ever went back and "remade" Origins by inserting some "extra content" like I suggested here and there, then perhaps that would be acceptable.

@Raging - It's rare to see someone who agrees with me but is on the opposite side of the fence in terms of "liking" the character lol.

Modifié par Aradace, 16 août 2011 - 04:57 .

[whykikyouwhy]

@Aradace - wow. I try to keep my Lewis Black moments few and far between lest I burst some blood vessels in my eye.

But maybe the hint is there. She's a bard. She tells the warden that her game is subterfuge. If you do Sketchy in the Details in DA2, Sketch warns you about believing/trusting storytellers. Really subtle hints, and they could be stretches, but maybe I'm just the type to peer at things sideways, take a peripheral glance, because seldom are things as they appear (Flemeth).

Or, all along, Leliana the bard is Leliana the muse and her spirit can reform into a vibrant woman (on rollerskates) who does the work of the divine. (Did you click that link I posted earlier? Did you revel in the glory that was the 80's?)

[Aradace]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

 (Did you click that link I posted earlier? Did you revel in the glory that was the 80's?)

I think I missed out on that one lol

[Satyricon331]

RagingCyclone wrote...

Aradace wrote...
*snip*

I am a Leliana fan, and I have to agree with you that the devs should have placed another character in there instead of her. I won't argue about your feelings toward her, it's your game and you like and dislike who you want. But I am quoting you because I agree with you about her appearance in DA2. It's a full retcon that dismisses what you did with her in Origins. Whether like me a player romanced her and ran away together or like yourself who killed her, both scenarios preclude her returning as Sister Nightengale. We are on opposite sides of our feelings about her, but both agree...she should not have been in DA2 either as she is portrayed or at all. I would have preferred not at all instead of what they did with her.

I tend to agree with you both.  No matter how good the explanation for her reappearance is (in terms of how well the explanation fits the setting), it will never be able to remove that sense/feeling that they came up with the idea to bring her back long after they wrote her "death" scene, and named the Seekers after her amulet rather than the other way around.  Even if that feeling is factually wrong, it still seems like problematic writing that that feeling even seems reasonable.

Modifié par Satyricon331, 16 août 2011 - 05:10 .