130 réponses à ce sujet

[100k]

The moment the quarians tried to wipe out the geth, they lost their right to their home world in my opinion. Upon creation of a sapient species, the quarians should've realized that wiping out the geth was nothing short of cultural genocide -- worse than the intentions of the genophage -- worse than the extermination of the rachni.

The geth are responding to organic life the only way they know how -- and it isn't their fault. Their only perception of organics is that of races that fear and hate the geth. Naturally, to avoid losses, the geth attack without remorse and mercy. They turned to the only beings that seemed to understand them -- the Reapers.

The Reapers manipulated the geth by doing something that even organics fall for: telling them what they wanted to hear.

It's time for the Admiralty Board to shelve their pride, ask for Council communication and security, and then plead with the geth for Rannoch back. It's time for the geth to be accepted as one of the Council races. The more that the geth learn about organics, the easier it will be for them to realize that organics aren't just prejudice about synthetics -- they're prejudice about other organics!

This revelation might allow the geth to join the -- well, there's no other word for it -- cultural deterrence that allows organic civilizations to coexist.

[Kileyan]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

We should negotiate with the geth to leave, then take the it for ourself out of spite for the quarians.

Alternatively, the geth can stay as long as they behave.

But how do you trust a Geth. They don't have the same values as a Quarian, Human, Asari or even a Krogan. THey do not understand children, wounded, soldiers, civilian aid workers, physcians or whatever.

They kill everything in a time of war, to them every Geth is a soldier, doctor, assassin, engineer and what not.

Just like last time, when they go to war they kill everything, the weakest first, the hosptials first, because it is logiical. How do you make a truce with beings who really aren't alive, have zero appeciation for children, don't have children or aren't driven to protect the children or the weak.

The geth are monsters, only held in check by logic and computer programs, if they are let loose to violence and war, they are not like us, killing the weakest first is likely a good choice to them first. Chidren, schools and hospitals are likely their first target since they are soft and easy.

The Geth have no idea why it would be bad to bomb an orphanage or a hospital, they might even say the latter was a first target.

Modifié par Kileyan, 16 août 2011 - 05:21 .

[Sisterofshane]

MrFob wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

Blind trust would only be necessary in the immediate future, and even then in very small amounts.  For the Quarians to return home permanently, the Geth and the Quarians would have to build a rapport, one that is mediated and encouraged by a third neutral party.  Similar to the relationship built between humanity and the turians.  Is it a shakey, mistrustful peace?  Yes, but it still allows us to coexist within the galaxy.  There may eventually come a time where they become our strongest allies, but this will never be so if both races just ignore the problem.

So yes, not simple, but possible.

Problem is, there is no third party at the moment that could mediate. Forget the council races. They banish AI research altogether and tolerate the geth only because they wont risk doing anything about it (the council is good at that). How could the geth ever trust them. how coul they trust any organic species for that matter.
I actually think the heretic story was not the smartest move BW ever made. It would have made sense for the geth to ally with the reaper (and maybe even revere them as the next step in their evolution) due to pure logic. Introducing the whole "some of us were reprogrammed" story was dumbing down a very interesting aspect of the ME universe and its complex interaction between organic and artificial life.
On the other hand, how can the quarians or any other organics trust the geth? This may seem a bit easier at first but then, the geth have eternal memory capacity. They record and don't forget (Legions recording of the morning war proves that). That fact, combined with an inherent unpredictability of a hive mind AI which thinks on principle completely different to the individualistic social structure of organic civilizations and their rapid evolutionary change makes "paranoia" on the quarians side very understandable.

So yes, it is definitely not simple.

I actually agree with you on this part -- as of yet, neither the Geth OR the Quarians are considered in very high regard in the galaxy.  It is a very emotionally charged debate.  However, I don't think it would be so hard for the Geth -- if faced with an honest truce, I can see them coming to the table.

Hopefully for those that want peace, ME3 will give the Geth and the Quarians the opportunity to change their "status" in the world.

[TheRealJayDee]

Establish peace between Quarians and Geth.
Rannoch to the Quarians AND Geth (if they want).
Add a huuuuge human colony to the mix, to have an eye on them and function as an embassy.
Have at least one such colony on every planet in every system.
All hail Galactic President Shepard!

...what was this about again...?

[Dave of Canada]

I should, kick everybody else out. Maybe keep a few Geth to keep the place pretty.

[Sisterofshane]

Kileyan wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

We should negotiate with the geth to leave, then take the it for ourself out of spite for the quarians.

Alternatively, the geth can stay as long as they behave.

But how do you trust a Geth. They don't have the same values as a Quarian, Human, Asari or even a Krogan. THey do not understand children, wounded, soldiers, civilian aid workers, physcians or whatever.

They kill everything in a time of war, to them every Geth is a soldier, doctor, assassin, engineer and what not.

Just like last time, when they go to war they kill everything, the weakest first, the hosptials first, because it is logiical. How do you make a truce with beings who really aren't alive, have zero appeciation for children, don't have children or aren't driven to protect the children or the weak.

The geth are monsters, only held in check by logic and computer programs, if they are let loose to violence and war, they are not like us, killing the weakest first is likely a good choice to them first. Chidren, schools and hospitals are likely their first target since they are soft and easy.

The Geth have no idea why it would be bad to bomb an orphanage or a hospital, they might even say the latter was a first target.

Again, I ask you to cite your proof that the Geth slaughter innocents (and I'm not talking about Eden Prime Heretic Geth, but the Geth in general).
They may be purely logic driven, but even they understand the rationalities of war -- genocide is just NOT in their nature.  They proved it by leaving the Quarians alone (once they determined themselves to be reasonably secure), and again by not coming out of the veil to indiscriminantly slaughter organics.

Let's face it, if they WANTED all of us to die, the time to do so would have been WAY before Eden Prime or Sovereign ever came into the picture.  It probably would have started when the Citadel ammassed a fleet outside the Perseus Veil, or shortly thereafter.

[Someone With Mass]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...
Were did you get a planet description? From what I hear anything going beyond the veil gets blown up.

From a magazine.

According to it, Rannoch (the quarian homeworld) is, and I quote "inspired by the worst cases of pathological collectors shown on American junk-TV".

[Sisterofshane]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...
Were did you get a planet description? From what I hear anything going beyond the veil gets blown up.

From a magazine.

According to it, Rannoch (the quarian homeworld) is, and I quote "inspired by the worst cases of pathological collectors shown on American junk-TV".

Obviously.  For three hundred years the Geth have "presided" over Rannoch, and they have no sentimentality attached with objects, or no way of knowing what "liveable" standards are for organics (ex., they might keep everything clean, but store useless objects in such a manner that there is no space to live in.  Organics may like to have a big open room, but to a machine empty sapce is wasted space).

I can imagine they keep everything they find either "useful" or perhaps that the Quarians might "want" someday, and use the available space given to them as efficiently as possible (they are machines after all)

[Kileyan]

Sisterofshane wrote...

Kileyan wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

We should negotiate with the geth to leave, then take the it for ourself out of spite for the quarians.

Alternatively, the geth can stay as long as they behave.

But how do you trust a Geth. They don't have the same values as a Quarian, Human, Asari or even a Krogan. THey do not understand children, wounded, soldiers, civilian aid workers, physcians or whatever.

They kill everything in a time of war, to them every Geth is a soldier, doctor, assassin, engineer and what not.

Just like last time, when they go to war they kill everything, the weakest first, the hosptials first, because it is logiical. How do you make a truce with beings who really aren't alive, have zero appeciation for children, don't have children or aren't driven to protect the children or the weak.

The geth are monsters, only held in check by logic and computer programs, if they are let loose to violence and war, they are not like us, killing the weakest first is likely a good choice to them first. Chidren, schools and hospitals are likely their first target since they are soft and easy.

The Geth have no idea why it would be bad to bomb an orphanage or a hospital, they might even say the latter was a first target.

Again, I ask you to cite your proof that the Geth slaughter innocents (and I'm not talking about Eden Prime Heretic Geth, but the Geth in general).
They may be purely logic driven, but even they understand the rationalities of war -- genocide is just NOT in their nature.  They proved it by leaving the Quarians alone (once they determined themselves to be reasonably secure), and again by not coming out of the veil to indiscriminantly slaughter organics.

Let's face it, if they WANTED all of us to die, the time to do so would have been WAY before Eden Prime or Sovereign ever came into the picture.  It probably would have started when the Citadel ammassed a fleet outside the Perseus Veil, or shortly thereafter.

The Geth according to stories in the book and ME1, wipes out the Quarian homeworld, they didn't start with military, they started with hospitals and emergency service, they bombed schools as much as they did military bases. They killed everything from babies to greath grandmothers. They were machines, they didn't know what the enemy was, they killed every fuggin Quarian they could. Some escaped, and they chased them into the stars.

Proof they killed inncoents? The Geth bombed hospitals first, because thier logic programs told them cutting of the ability to repair first, would end the conflict quicker. THe geth killed billions, and they have no concept of love, or love for your children. THey killed children because they could become enemies in the future, not because they were malicious, just because they are cold machines with no thought of anything, they are cold killers, and will be again if given reason.

The Geth themselves were children at that time, they had no clue of what a combatant or a threat was, they were not organic, so has no idea of what love, mercy or even a child was. The result of such a creature was one that would wipe out an entire world and not even know it did anythign wrong..........that is a geth.

Modifié par Kileyan, 16 août 2011 - 05:41 .

[CrazyCatDude]

MrFob wrote...

Problem is, there is no third party at the moment that could mediate. Forget the council races. They banish AI research altogether and tolerate the geth only because they wont risk doing anything about it (the council is good at that). How could the geth ever trust them. how coul they trust any organic species for that matter.

I actually think the heretic story was not the smartest move BW ever made. It would have made sense for the geth to ally with the reaper (and maybe even revere them as the next step in their evolution) due to pure logic. Introducing the whole "some of us were reprogrammed" story was dumbing down a very interesting aspect of the ME universe and its complex interaction between organic and artificial life.

On the other hand, how can the quarians or any other organics trust the geth? This may seem a bit easier at first but then, the geth have eternal memory capacity. They record and don't forget (Legions recording of the morning war proves that). That fact, combined with an inherent unpredictability of a hive mind AI which thinks on principle completely different to the individualistic social structure of organic civilizations and their rapid evolutionary change makes "paranoia" on the quarians side very understandable.

So yes, it is definitely not simple.

I'm sorry, but you've misinterpriated the Heretic storyline.  The Heretics were *not* reprogrammed.  They made a decision that differed from the mainstream Geth.  A *decision*.  This very much plays into one of the larger themes of the series, i.e. that people often make horrible choices when it gives them an easy way to get what they want (using the Krogen against the Rachi; releasing the genophage on the Krogan, everything that's ever happened on Noveria, ever; etc).  That's kind of why I view rewriting the Heretics are one of the most morally disgusting decisions posible in the entire game.  You're effectively enslaving the Heretics by removing their free will.  Better to let them face the consequences of their decisions.

[MrFob]

Wait a minute, Legion talk about a deviation of the heretics runtimes that caused them to make a different conclusion. This is exactly why they can program a virus to rewrite the other geth. That does not sound like a free decision to me.


EDIT:
Alright, I just reread it on the wiki (it's been a while since I played the game, making a pasue before ME3).
So it look as if you are right. The original heretics freely decided to join Sovereign. The runtime change is just what the virus would have done to the rest of the "normal" geth.
So I officially withdraw my critizism about BWs story approach. Well done BW.

Funny thing is, that makes my point about the quarians, not trusting the geth for good reasons even stronger on two accounts: 1) Who sais the geth wont (or part of them) wont make sich a hostile decision again. 2) It seems their logic can be forcefully altered on a grand scale which doesn't make them trustworthy either.

Modifié par MrFob, 16 août 2011 - 06:06 .

[Sisterofshane]

Kileyan wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

Kileyan wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

We should negotiate with the geth to leave, then take the it for ourself out of spite for the quarians.

Alternatively, the geth can stay as long as they behave.

But how do you trust a Geth. They don't have the same values as a Quarian, Human, Asari or even a Krogan. THey do not understand children, wounded, soldiers, civilian aid workers, physcians or whatever.

They kill everything in a time of war, to them every Geth is a soldier, doctor, assassin, engineer and what not.

Just like last time, when they go to war they kill everything, the weakest first, the hosptials first, because it is logiical. How do you make a truce with beings who really aren't alive, have zero appeciation for children, don't have children or aren't driven to protect the children or the weak.

The geth are monsters, only held in check by logic and computer programs, if they are let loose to violence and war, they are not like us, killing the weakest first is likely a good choice to them first. Chidren, schools and hospitals are likely their first target since they are soft and easy.

The Geth have no idea why it would be bad to bomb an orphanage or a hospital, they might even say the latter was a first target.

Again, I ask you to cite your proof that the Geth slaughter innocents (and I'm not talking about Eden Prime Heretic Geth, but the Geth in general).
They may be purely logic driven, but even they understand the rationalities of war -- genocide is just NOT in their nature.  They proved it by leaving the Quarians alone (once they determined themselves to be reasonably secure), and again by not coming out of the veil to indiscriminantly slaughter organics.

Let's face it, if they WANTED all of us to die, the time to do so would have been WAY before Eden Prime or Sovereign ever came into the picture.  It probably would have started when the Citadel ammassed a fleet outside the Perseus Veil, or shortly thereafter.

The Geth according to stories in the book and ME1, wipes out the Quarian homeworld, they didn't start with military, they started with hospitals and emergency service, they bombed schools as much as they did military bases. They killed everything from babies to greath grandmothers. They were machines, they didn't know what the enemy was, they killed every fuggin Quarian they could. Some escaped, and they chased them into the stars.

Proof they killed inncoents? The Geth bombed hospitals first, because thier logic programs told them cutting of the ability to repair first, would end the conflict quicker. THe geth killed billions, and they have no concept of love, or love for your children. THey killed children because they could become enemies in the future, not because they were malicious, just because they are cold machines with no thought of anything, they are cold killers, and will be again if given reason.

The Geth themselves were children at that time, they had no clue of what a combatant or a threat was, they were not organic, so has no idea of what love, mercy or even a child was. The result of such a creature was one that would wipe out an entire world and not even know it did anythign wrong..........that is a geth.

Haven't read the books, but I'm assuming the "stories" you talk about come with cultural bias -- in other words, they were stories told by Quarians themselves.

The problem with this is such that there are NO quarians around today that were alive during the Morning War.  Anything they say is handed down from several dozen generations (assuming that the Quarians have a lifespan similar to humans).  With such a large amount of time, and with the amount of resentment that still exists among the Quarians, it is highly likely that aspects of those stories evolved from what was once a simple truth.

For example, Israeli archeologists and scholars are undergoing an incredible project to determine how the scriptures of the Torah were originally written.  They have determined that (by examing ancient scripts and comparing them to today's written volumes), that the Book of the Old Testament is now exactly one-seventh longer in text then in the oldest known version.  Over the years, parts were added, phrases were misinterpreted, and language was "convoluted" (to say that the original text was changed, even if there was no change in meaning or function).


And also, I would like to point out, that targeting "hospitals" and civilians has been a part of war since it was invented.  Heck, I just read an article online about how in France, they found a cave littered with the bones of cro magnons, and they have proof that they cannibalized a small tribe of other cro magnons, including one infant.

And, if an enemy came out with the expressed purpose of anihilating your entire species, would you not resort to every tactic necessary in order to ensure victory, and thus survival?

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The geth killed billions of quarians. Considering how many quarians are left that's around 99% or more of their entire population. Unless you somehow consider their entire species to be guilty, that guarantees that the geth killed innocent civilians.

[MysteryNotes]

Kileyan wrote...

But how do you trust a Geth. They don't have the same values as a Quarian, Human, Asari or even a Krogan. THey do not understand children, wounded, soldiers, civilian aid workers, physcians or whatever.

They kill everything in a time of war, to them every Geth is a soldier, doctor, assassin, engineer and what not.

Just like last time, when they go to war they kill everything, the weakest first, the hosptials first, because it is logiical. How do you make a truce with beings who really aren't alive, have zero appeciation for children, don't have children or aren't driven to protect the children or the weak.

The geth are monsters, only held in check by logic and computer programs, if they are let loose to violence and war, they are not like us, killing the weakest first is likely a good choice to them first. Chidren, schools and hospitals are likely their first target since they are soft and easy.

The Geth have no idea why it would be bad to bomb an orphanage or a hospital, they might even say the latter was a first target.

It would be perfectly logical to destroy those facilities.
After all, they're resources that the enemy uses and that the geth have no need of.
It was a war for their survival, i don't see a problem with it.

[Kileyan]

Sisterofshane wrote...

And also, I would like to point out, that targeting "hospitals" and civilians has been a part of war since it was invented.  Heck, I just read an article online about how in France, they found a cave littered with the bones of cro magnons, and they have proof that they cannibalized a small tribe of other cro magnons, including one infant.

And, if an enemy came out with the expressed purpose of anihilating your entire species, would you not resort to every tactic necessary in order to ensure victory, and thus survival?

I would like to point out that targeting hospitals and civilians hasn't been a part of war since people with enough advanced tech could do war without doing such things. Only savages target children and hospitals first, by accident yes, but never by choice. It just isnt' worth it when a people don't want to wipe the entire race from a planet.

Also if some nasty people came at me, wanting to wipe out my civilization, I can guarantee you I wouldn't isntantly think kill their children! I might hit their oil fields, their wineries, maybe their gov buildings. I don't think I would hit their grade schools and orphans.

You don't get it, the Geth didn't do those things because they were ultimate evil and malicious, they did it because they are scrary things that didn't feel anything, they don't care, they have zero care and compassion, they wiped out an entire planet, they basically done a big Death Star strike and to them it meant nothing. None of those that died meant nothing to them. This is a race of beings who might have a spark of free though, but it is only a spark, they don't have any regret, emotion or empathy to go with it. We are protecting their right to live and not asking if they respect anyones else right to live.

They wiped out an entire race and don't feel a think, have no concpet of what they did, they'd do it again.

[marshalleck]

100k wrote...

The moment the quarians tried to wipe out the geth, they lost their right to their home world in my opinion 

In human history there have been many attempts to eradicate certain ethnicities...some more, err...'effective' (I'm loathe to use the word 'successful' in this context...) than others. 

Do you believe humanity have lost our claim to Earth?

If so, would you be inclined to agree with, say, the turians if they were to forcibly evict humanity from earth and all its colonies and take them for themselves? Or not necessarily the turians...any species? Since humanity has forfeited its claim to a homeworld and colonies by virtue of having committed acts of genocide, it follows that Earth and her colonies are unclaimed, yes? And that use of force to evict squatters is justified?

Modifié par marshalleck, 16 août 2011 - 06:23 .

[Sisterofshane]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

The geth killed billions of quarians. Considering how many quarians are left that's around 99% or more of their entire population. Unless you somehow consider their entire species to be guilty, that guarantees that the geth killed innocent civilians.

I guess I should have clarified a bit.  I'm not really doubting that they killed innocents, but rather that they did so indiscriminantly, as the other user suggests.

To be fair, I don't think the Quarians killed innocents with the same intent that many organics have when they kill innocents.  They weren't out to demoralize the enemy.  They were logical and methodical, and took the necessary measures in order to guarantee their survival.  I think that part is most crucial -- they weren't fighting for land, or resources, or for idealogy, they were fighting to survive.

I don't think that their targets justifies them as "unreasonable".  Extreme, maybe.  But not unreasonable or unethical.

[MysteryNotes]

Kileyan wrote...

I would like to point out that targeting hospitals and civilians hasn't been a part of war since people with enough advanced tech could do war without doing such things. Only savages target children and hospitals first, by accident yes, but never by choice. It just isnt' worth it when a people don't want to wipe the entire race from a planet.

Also if some nasty people came at me, wanting to wipe out my civilization, I can guarantee you I wouldn't isntantly think kill their children! I might hit their oil fields, their wineries, maybe their gov buildings. I don't think I would hit their grade schools and orphans.

You don't get it, the Geth didn't do those things because they were ultimate evil and malicious, they did it because they are scrary things that didn't feel anything, they don't care, they have zero care and compassion, they wiped out an entire planet, they basically done a big Death Star strike and to them it meant nothing. None of those that died meant nothing to them. This is a race of beings who might have a spark of free though, but it is only a spark, they don't have any regret, emotion or empathy to go with it. We are protecting their right to live and not asking if they respect anyones else right to live.

They wiped out an entire race and don't feel a think, have no concpet of what they did, they'd do it again.

Killing someone and feeling nothing isn't a problem.
Its when you start to enjoy it thats the problem.

You do know that the Quarians attacked first, right?
The Geth had the right to retaliate.

[Dionkey]

marshalleck wrote...

100k wrote...

The moment the quarians tried to wipe out the geth, they lost their right to their home world in my opinion 

In human history there have been many attempts to eradicate certain ethnicities...some more, err...'effective' (I'm loathe to use the word 'successful' in this context...) than others. 

Do you believe humanity have lost our claim to Earth?

Well, ehtnicities and species are different. We are all human, so that doesn't really apply. If we had a crusade against animals, sure.

[Kileyan]

MysteryNotes wrote...

Kileyan wrote...

But how do you trust a Geth. They don't have the same values as a Quarian, Human, Asari or even a Krogan. THey do not understand children, wounded, soldiers, civilian aid workers, physcians or whatever.

They kill everything in a time of war, to them every Geth is a soldier, doctor, assassin, engineer and what not.

Just like last time, when they go to war they kill everything, the weakest first, the hosptials first, because it is logiical. How do you make a truce with beings who really aren't alive, have zero appeciation for children, don't have children or aren't driven to protect the children or the weak.

The geth are monsters, only held in check by logic and computer programs, if they are let loose to violence and war, they are not like us, killing the weakest first is likely a good choice to them first. Chidren, schools and hospitals are likely their first target since they are soft and easy.

The Geth have no idea why it would be bad to bomb an orphanage or a hospital, they might even say the latter was a first target.

It would be perfectly logical to destroy those facilities.
After all, they're resources that the enemy uses and that the geth have no need of.
It was a war for their survival, i don't see a problem with it.

Well that is the problem I have, most living races still have a respect for at least children and such. The fact that posters think it is cool that Geth are methodical logical cold killers just bugs me.

Logical or not, that makes them bad guys in my book, dangerous, untrustworthy, and needing of some killing if they can't realize that killing kids and such isn't a good think to do. A methodical, logical, cold race of child killing machines isn't in my Sheps future.

[Rockworm503]

 Ok the last thread like this got locked so I really want to get this right.
Ok umm I think the correct answer is the Quarians should have it because they can never be wrong and that the Geth are just machines and shouldn't have a say in anything.
Did I get it right?

[KnightofPhoenix]

I'll determine that with a game of head or tails. 3rd time the charm.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 16 août 2011 - 06:25 .

[marshalleck]

Dionkey wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

100k wrote...

The moment the quarians tried to wipe out the geth, they lost their right to their home world in my opinion 

In human history there have been many attempts to eradicate certain ethnicities...some more, err...'effective' (I'm loathe to use the word 'successful' in this context...) than others. 

Do you believe humanity have lost our claim to Earth?

Well, ehtnicities and species are different. We are all human, so that doesn't really apply. If we had a crusade against animals, sure.

Don't even get me started on animal welfare under the 'stewardship' of humanity. The atrocities we've committed against ourselves over our entire history pale in comparison to that which we inflict on the sentient creatures with which we share our planet each year.