130 réponses à ce sujet

[MrFob]

Never mind, just realized this is rapidly going off topic, so I am going to refrain from commenting.

Modifié par MrFob, 16 août 2011 - 06:30 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Sisterofshane wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

The geth killed billions of quarians. Considering how many quarians are left that's around 99% or more of their entire population. Unless you somehow consider their entire species to be guilty, that guarantees that the geth killed innocent civilians.

I guess I should have clarified a bit.  I'm not really doubting that they killed innocents, but rather that they did so indiscriminantly, as the other user suggests.

To be fair, I don't think the Quarians killed innocents with the same intent that many organics have when they kill innocents.  They weren't out to demoralize the enemy.  They were logical and methodical, and took the necessary measures in order to guarantee their survival.  I think that part is most crucial -- they weren't fighting for land, or resources, or for idealogy, they were fighting to survive.

I don't think that their targets justifies them as "unreasonable".  Extreme, maybe.  But not unreasonable or unethical.

Frankly I never really thought the motives of perpetrators of genocide are relevant at all. They could have survived without wiping out the quarians, but exterminating them was simply efficient. If a human nation used that same defense for wiping out virutally every single member of another population I don't think it would be somehow more morally acceptable than if they were fighting for land.

Whatever reason the geth had for genocide is immaterial. It doesn't make the act of doing it any less horrifying.

[KnightofPhoenix]

MrFob wrote...

Where do you draw the line then? We deliberately wiped out smallpox and are proud of it.
Although I can't think of any example right now, I am sure there are instances in humanities history where we tried to wipe out entire species of higher order animals as well, at least as far as we were aware.

Likely, the Dodo bird.

And we are certainly making little progress when it comes to whales and other animals who are on the verge of extinction.

[Rockworm503]

Kileyan wrote...

*its more than the Quarians deserve*

See, I don't get this reaction at all?

The Quarians may have made a huge mistake, but they didn't kill babies out of malicious intent. They thought they were killing nothing more than some algorithims that may or may not have constituted life.

The Geth on the other had, having no idea of life, poliltical leaders, military , killed every single thing in thier sight, everything, children, bakers, cab drivers, nurses, doctors.

It should be a wash, Quarians made a mistake, and the Geth having zero idea of what life was, even though people argue that they are life, decided to exterminate every living thing on that planet, then pursue them into space.

Apparently the Quarians are at fault for making a mistake, but the Geth are not at fault for making a several billion lives mistake. We can't blame the Geth, simply because they are a bunch of overly violent children with tons of power and no idea how to use it in the context of the galaxy.

Would you blame your 3 year old for shooting you in the foot when you were going to kill them?

[MrFob]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

MrFob wrote...

Where do you draw the line then? We deliberately wiped out smallpox and are proud of it.
Although I can't think of any example right now, I am sure there are instances in humanities history where we tried to wipe out entire species of higher order animals as well, at least as far as we were aware.

Likely, the Dodo bird.

And we are certainly making little progress when it comes to whales and other animals who are on the verge of extinction.

Dam, edited too late.
Allright then. I thought of these examples but that was not deliverate so I didn't mention them.

[Rockworm503]

Kileyan wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

We should negotiate with the geth to leave, then take the it for ourself out of spite for the quarians.

Alternatively, the geth can stay as long as they behave.

But how do you trust a Geth. They don't have the same values as a Quarian, Human, Asari or even a Krogan. THey do not understand children, wounded, soldiers, civilian aid workers, physcians or whatever.

They kill everything in a time of war, to them every Geth is a soldier, doctor, assassin, engineer and what not.

Just like last time, when they go to war they kill everything, the weakest first, the hosptials first, because it is logiical. How do you make a truce with beings who really aren't alive, have zero appeciation for children, don't have children or aren't driven to protect the children or the weak.

The geth are monsters, only held in check by logic and computer programs, if they are let loose to violence and war, they are not like us, killing the weakest first is likely a good choice to them first. Chidren, schools and hospitals are likely their first target since they are soft and easy.

The Geth have no idea why it would be bad to bomb an orphanage or a hospital, they might even say the latter was a first target.

WOW you want frys with your hyperbole?  You have no idea how the Geth think now.  Whatever they did in the morning war is not the exact same way they think now.  If they did Legion wouldn't have even saved Shepards life.

[Dionkey]

marshalleck wrote...

Don't even get me started on animal welfare under the 'stewardship' of humanity. The atrocities we've committed against ourselves over our entire history pale in comparison to that which we inflict on the sentient creatures with which we share our planet each year. 

Hey man, I am there with you, but it doesn't really work with the Geth. The Quarians inflicting damage against other Quarians would make sense, but the Geth are simply products of the Quarians, nothing else.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

What about individual nations who have committed genocide then? Should Germans have lost claim to Germany and been forced to become disenfranchised? Heck, I'd say most people in the world should have lost a claim to the country they live in with that line of thinking.

[marshalleck]

Dionkey wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Don't even get me started on animal welfare under the 'stewardship' of humanity. The atrocities we've committed against ourselves over our entire history pale in comparison to that which we inflict on the sentient creatures with which we share our planet each year. 

Hey man, I am there with you, but it doesn't really work with the Geth. The Quarians inflicting damage against other Quarians would make sense, but the Geth are simply products of the Quarians, nothing else.

Hmm. Understood. But it seems your opinion of the conflict may contrast with 100k's. I'm curious to see if humanity should be subjected to the same summary judgement.

Personally I don't think losing a claim to one's homeworld is something anyone has a right to punitively declare...a species cannot be divorced from its homeworld. They are literally products of their environment. It is a consequence of basic biology. Any species a world has given rise to, has an inherent and inalienable claim to that world. 

Modifié par marshalleck, 16 août 2011 - 06:42 .

[Rockworm503]

Kileyan wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

Kileyan wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

We should negotiate with the geth to leave, then take the it for ourself out of spite for the quarians.

Alternatively, the geth can stay as long as they behave.

But how do you trust a Geth. They don't have the same values as a Quarian, Human, Asari or even a Krogan. THey do not understand children, wounded, soldiers, civilian aid workers, physcians or whatever.

They kill everything in a time of war, to them every Geth is a soldier, doctor, assassin, engineer and what not.

Just like last time, when they go to war they kill everything, the weakest first, the hosptials first, because it is logiical. How do you make a truce with beings who really aren't alive, have zero appeciation for children, don't have children or aren't driven to protect the children or the weak.

The geth are monsters, only held in check by logic and computer programs, if they are let loose to violence and war, they are not like us, killing the weakest first is likely a good choice to them first. Chidren, schools and hospitals are likely their first target since they are soft and easy.

The Geth have no idea why it would be bad to bomb an orphanage or a hospital, they might even say the latter was a first target.

Again, I ask you to cite your proof that the Geth slaughter innocents (and I'm not talking about Eden Prime Heretic Geth, but the Geth in general).
They may be purely logic driven, but even they understand the rationalities of war -- genocide is just NOT in their nature.  They proved it by leaving the Quarians alone (once they determined themselves to be reasonably secure), and again by not coming out of the veil to indiscriminantly slaughter organics.

Let's face it, if they WANTED all of us to die, the time to do so would have been WAY before Eden Prime or Sovereign ever came into the picture.  It probably would have started when the Citadel ammassed a fleet outside the Perseus Veil, or shortly thereafter.

The Geth according to stories in the book and ME1, wipes out the Quarian homeworld, they didn't start with military, they started with hospitals and emergency service, they bombed schools as much as they did military bases. They killed everything from babies to greath grandmothers. They were machines, they didn't know what the enemy was, they killed every fuggin Quarian they could. Some escaped, and they chased them into the stars.

Proof they killed inncoents? The Geth bombed hospitals first, because thier logic programs told them cutting of the ability to repair first, would end the conflict quicker. THe geth killed billions, and they have no concept of love, or love for your children. THey killed children because they could become enemies in the future, not because they were malicious, just because they are cold machines with no thought of anything, they are cold killers, and will be again if given reason.

The Geth themselves were children at that time, they had no clue of what a combatant or a threat was, they were not organic, so has no idea of what love, mercy or even a child was. The result of such a creature was one that would wipe out an entire world and not even know it did anythign wrong..........that is a geth.

At the time is the key phrase here yet you keep talking about the Morning War like it happened yesterday and that the Geth are incapable of developing how they thinkg.

[Sisterofshane]

Kileyan wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

And also, I would like to point out, that targeting "hospitals" and civilians has been a part of war since it was invented.  Heck, I just read an article online about how in France, they found a cave littered with the bones of cro magnons, and they have proof that they cannibalized a small tribe of other cro magnons, including one infant.

And, if an enemy came out with the expressed purpose of anihilating your entire species, would you not resort to every tactic necessary in order to ensure victory, and thus survival?

I would like to point out that targeting hospitals and civilians hasn't been a part of war since people with enough advanced tech could do war without doing such things. Only savages target children and hospitals first, by accident yes, but never by choice. It just isnt' worth it when a people don't want to wipe the entire race from a planet.

Also if some nasty people came at me, wanting to wipe out my civilization, I can guarantee you I wouldn't isntantly think kill their children! I might hit their oil fields, their wineries, maybe their gov buildings. I don't think I would hit their grade schools and orphans.

You don't get it, the Geth didn't do those things because they were ultimate evil and malicious, they did it because they are scrary things that didn't feel anything, they don't care, they have zero care and compassion, they wiped out an entire planet, they basically done a big Death Star strike and to them it meant nothing. None of those that died meant nothing to them. This is a race of beings who might have a spark of free though, but it is only a spark, they don't have any regret, emotion or empathy to go with it. We are protecting their right to live and not asking if they respect anyones else right to live.

They wiped out an entire race and don't feel a think, have no concpet of what they did, they'd do it again.

The enemy is relentless, their only motive is to erase you from
existence.  They want no surrender, no bargains.  If you lose, then you
are DEAD.  You wouldn't, at that point, resort to extreme tactics?

There is no actual proof that these were the intended primary targets of the Geth.  They may have targeted them at some time, but it makes more sense that they saved such tactics when the Quarians proved to be an unrelenting force.

And to say that they "wiped out" the Quarians with little care is to misunderstand the nature of the war itself.  They DID care, and according to Legion, had given the Quarians several opportunities with which to cease hostilities.  He goes on to say that if the Quarians even thought that victory was possible, they attacked.  I think this is the very reason the Geth were driven to the extreme, motivated by their own survival. 

Also. for you to say that they were savages to target children implies an alterior motive on their part -- to terrorize the Quarians.  I don't think it was ever intended.  And by your reasoning, they are "scary" because they operate bound to PURE logic?  To me, an irrational enemy force would be far scarier, do far worse things, with way worse intentions, then a machine ever could.  They didn't take "trophies" off the dead, they didn't display their bodies as "warnings", and I think we can reasonably assume that they didn't force any captives to suffer torture and humiliation, and to die a slow, painful death.  All of these things have occured in MODERN human history, and not for causes such as "survival".  How are they any more savage then we?

Besides, Legion shows that they do, in some way, hold respect for the "creators" lost in the war.  Despite not needing a planet, they have remained on the Quarian Worlds to preserve them, as a sort of "memorial" to dead.  It may not be regret for doing what they deemed was necessary, but it shows they have respect for life, and to take one is not a decision that is made lightly.

The only feasible way that they would ever resort to such tactics again would be if they once again, had their very survival reasonably threatened.  As long as they have been left alone, the "true" geth (not the heretics, mind you, who make up a very small part of Geth in general) have shown no interest in commencing in hostile acts against organic life.

[Kaiser Shepard]

marshalleck wrote...

Do you believe humanity have lost our claim to Earth?

Yes, which leads to the logical conclusion that I and I alone should rule over humanity, the inferior non-me part of it.

Modifié par Kaiser Shepard, 16 août 2011 - 06:42 .

[Rockworm503]

CrazyCatDude wrote...

MrFob wrote...

Problem is, there is no third party at the moment that could mediate. Forget the council races. They banish AI research altogether and tolerate the geth only because they wont risk doing anything about it (the council is good at that). How could the geth ever trust them. how coul they trust any organic species for that matter.

I actually think the heretic story was not the smartest move BW ever made. It would have made sense for the geth to ally with the reaper (and maybe even revere them as the next step in their evolution) due to pure logic. Introducing the whole "some of us were reprogrammed" story was dumbing down a very interesting aspect of the ME universe and its complex interaction between organic and artificial life.

On the other hand, how can the quarians or any other organics trust the geth? This may seem a bit easier at first but then, the geth have eternal memory capacity. They record and don't forget (Legions recording of the morning war proves that). That fact, combined with an inherent unpredictability of a hive mind AI which thinks on principle completely different to the individualistic social structure of organic civilizations and their rapid evolutionary change makes "paranoia" on the quarians side very understandable.

So yes, it is definitely not simple.

I'm sorry, but you've misinterpriated the Heretic storyline.  The Heretics were *not* reprogrammed.  They made a decision that differed from the mainstream Geth.  A *decision*.  This very much plays into one of the larger themes of the series, i.e. that people often make horrible choices when it gives them an easy way to get what they want (using the Krogen against the Rachi; releasing the genophage on the Krogan, everything that's ever happened on Noveria, ever; etc).  That's kind of why I view rewriting the Heretics are one of the most morally disgusting decisions posible in the entire game.  You're effectively enslaving the Heretics by removing their free will.  Better to let them face the consequences of their decisions.

Yet Legion himself said that you can't judge every race the same as your own and that it makes sense to not see it as a moral issue.  With the reapers coming I can't let morals get in the way of a tactical option like this.  Besides you were going to kill them rewriting them and making them think about what they did sounds like a better way for them to make up for it then just destroying them.

[Dionkey]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Do you believe humanity have lost our claim to Earth?

Yes, which leads to the logical conclusion that I and I alone should rule over humanity, the inferior non-me part of it.

Someone needs to pull a Code Geass and end it like they did in R2, humans would be much better off.

[xXljoshlXx]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Do you believe humanity have lost our claim to Earth?

Yes, which leads to the logical conclusion that I and I alone should rule over humanity, the inferior non-me part of it.

Where am I on your ranking of peons?

[Rockworm503]

Kileyan wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

And also, I would like to point out, that targeting "hospitals" and civilians has been a part of war since it was invented.  Heck, I just read an article online about how in France, they found a cave littered with the bones of cro magnons, and they have proof that they cannibalized a small tribe of other cro magnons, including one infant.

And, if an enemy came out with the expressed purpose of anihilating your entire species, would you not resort to every tactic necessary in order to ensure victory, and thus survival?

I would like to point out that targeting hospitals and civilians hasn't been a part of war since people with enough advanced tech could do war without doing such things. Only savages target children and hospitals first, by accident yes, but never by choice. It just isnt' worth it when a people don't want to wipe the entire race from a planet.

Also if some nasty people came at me, wanting to wipe out my civilization, I can guarantee you I wouldn't isntantly think kill their children! I might hit their oil fields, their wineries, maybe their gov buildings. I don't think I would hit their grade schools and orphans.

You don't get it, the Geth didn't do those things because they were ultimate evil and malicious, they did it because they are scrary things that didn't feel anything, they don't care, they have zero care and compassion, they wiped out an entire planet, they basically done a big Death Star strike and to them it meant nothing. None of those that died meant nothing to them. This is a race of beings who might have a spark of free though, but it is only a spark, they don't have any regret, emotion or empathy to go with it. We are protecting their right to live and not asking if they respect anyones else right to live.

They wiped out an entire race and don't feel a think, have no concpet of what they did, they'd do it again.

For someone who hates the Geth so much you sure make it a point to decide how they think and feel.

[Cheesy Blue]

What is the point of this thread? Everyone is going to have different opinions on who should get the homeworld. The fairest option would to let both races coexist with each other on the homeworld but given their history it may take a while before that option becomes a possibility. In the end the home world rightfully belongs to both species. The two races were both children of Rannoch, so the planet belongs to both races.

Modifié par Cheesy Blue, 16 août 2011 - 06:50 .

[Homey C-Dawg]

The quarians should get it back. The geth don't need it, they can post up wherever they want if they were to make peace.

That being said, if Legion was telling the truth when he said "Whenever the creators have though victory a possibility, they have attacked 100% of the time", then the quarians are rather bone-headed to not try diplomacy at some point over the last 300 years, especially since Legion says that's the one thing that might work.

None of the admirals want to open communications with the geth; the quarians are simply too obsessed with this idea of gloriously wiping out the geth and regaining everything that was lost, and it's just not going to happen like that.

Still though, despite their flaws, I still think they need their homeworld back. They are a broken species right now, and getting them on their homeworld and the geth off is the only way I think they will get their heads strait.

My 2¢

[Rockworm503]

Kileyan wrote...

MysteryNotes wrote...

Kileyan wrote...

But how do you trust a Geth. They don't have the same values as a Quarian, Human, Asari or even a Krogan. THey do not understand children, wounded, soldiers, civilian aid workers, physcians or whatever.

They kill everything in a time of war, to them every Geth is a soldier, doctor, assassin, engineer and what not.

Just like last time, when they go to war they kill everything, the weakest first, the hosptials first, because it is logiical. How do you make a truce with beings who really aren't alive, have zero appeciation for children, don't have children or aren't driven to protect the children or the weak.

The geth are monsters, only held in check by logic and computer programs, if they are let loose to violence and war, they are not like us, killing the weakest first is likely a good choice to them first. Chidren, schools and hospitals are likely their first target since they are soft and easy.

The Geth have no idea why it would be bad to bomb an orphanage or a hospital, they might even say the latter was a first target.

It would be perfectly logical to destroy those facilities.
After all, they're resources that the enemy uses and that the geth have no need of.
It was a war for their survival, i don't see a problem with it.

Well that is the problem I have, most living races still have a respect for at least children and such. The fact that posters think it is cool that Geth are methodical logical cold killers just bugs me.

Logical or not, that makes them bad guys in my book, dangerous, untrustworthy, and needing of some killing if they can't realize that killing kids and such isn't a good think to do. A methodical, logical, cold race of child killing machines isn't in my Sheps future.

You make it sound so easy like the Geth were written by a 3 year old.  Every time I get close to finishing ME2 and talk to Legion the harder it is for me to see it so black and white.
Just the fact that he saves your life or that he has a peice of your armor and it looks like a sentimental thing.  Hell they maintain the Homeworld... why would they do that if all they do is think with logic?  I'm not disputing that what they did in the Morning War was wrong or cold logic but that was so long ago.
Your judging the Geth by humans standards which Legion himself said is racism.

[Rockworm503]

marshalleck wrote...

Dionkey wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

100k wrote...

The moment the quarians tried to wipe out the geth, they lost their right to their home world in my opinion 

In human history there have been many attempts to eradicate certain ethnicities...some more, err...'effective' (I'm loathe to use the word 'successful' in this context...) than others. 

Do you believe humanity have lost our claim to Earth?

Well, ehtnicities and species are different. We are all human, so that doesn't really apply. If we had a crusade against animals, sure.

Don't even get me started on animal welfare under the 'stewardship' of humanity. The atrocities we've committed against ourselves over our entire history pale in comparison to that which we inflict on the sentient creatures with which we share our planet each year. 

We treat our dogs better then we treat each other.

[Rockworm503]

Cheesy Blue wrote...

What is the point of this thread? Everyone is going to have different opinions on who should get the homeworld. The fairest option would to let both races coexist with each other on the homeworld but given their history it may take a while before that option becomes a possibility. In the end the home world rightfully belongs to both species. The two races were both children of Rannoch, so the planet belongs to both races.

Whats the point of any thread?  Should we not talk to each other just because we have different opinions?

[Cheesy Blue]

Rockworm503 wrote...

Cheesy Blue wrote...

What is the point of this thread? Everyone is going to have different opinions on who should get the homeworld. The fairest option would to let both races coexist with each other on the homeworld but given their history it may take a while before that option becomes a possibility. In the end the home world rightfully belongs to both species. The two races were both children of Rannoch, so the planet belongs to both races.

Whats the point of any thread?  Should we not talk to each other just because we have different opinions?

It just seems like this thread is trollbait.

[marshalleck]

Rockworm503 wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Dionkey wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

100k wrote...

The moment the quarians tried to wipe out the geth, they lost their right to their home world in my opinion 

In human history there have been many attempts to eradicate certain ethnicities...some more, err...'effective' (I'm loathe to use the word 'successful' in this context...) than others. 

Do you believe humanity have lost our claim to Earth?

Well, ehtnicities and species are different. We are all human, so that doesn't really apply. If we had a crusade against animals, sure.

Don't even get me started on animal welfare under the 'stewardship' of humanity. The atrocities we've committed against ourselves over our entire history pale in comparison to that which we inflict on the sentient creatures with which we share our planet each year. 

We treat our dogs better then we treat each other.

Yes, certain animals which are cute and cuddly can have protected status. Others which aren't so, don't. For example, in western culture it's considered at least slightly shocking to think of slaughtering and eating a dog. Dogs are our companions, our friends, our family members! But hardly anyone bats an eyelash at the thought of pigs, cows, or chickens being "processed" (to use the sterilized, sanitary term!) in factory farm slaughter houses.

Anyways, this is the last time I will comment on this. No need to derail this into "PETA = People Eating Tasty Animals" stupidity.

If anyone else wants to comment on the original question I posed to 100k I'm curious to read your perspective.

Modifié par marshalleck, 16 août 2011 - 07:06 .

[didymos1120]

Cheesy Blue wrote...

The fairest option would to let both races coexist with each other on the homeworld but given their history it may take a while before that option becomes a possibility.

That's actually the silly option because the geth. don't. live. there.  They don't want to live there.  They've only got what amounts to a clean-up crew there.