200 réponses à ce sujet

[InvincibleHero]

NO. Defined in Merriam Webster as the following capable of feeling : having perception.

So clearly no on the first part they have no feelings or emotions and do not feel pain or anything of the like. They have no empathy to draw on and probably consider that worthless anyway.

The second part needs perception defined. This is as follows: 1. Awareness of the environment through physical sensation 2. Ability to understand: insight, compreshension. Sensation requires input from sensory organs which are only possessed by plants and animals by definition so that's out. Mechanical sensors are not the same things even if they mimic some of the functions. I think they have a rudimentary ability to understand things but they use pure logic which is sometimes problematic.

So they only tentatively satisfy one of the requirements of sentience. By defintion both traits have to be present to satisfy the definition. They have intelligence as far as their programming and hardware will take them but that is all. They are no living being at all. They are the code not the hardware after all.

[marshalleck]

The geth are clearly sentient. If you're going to start trotting out dictionary definitions to pass judgement on them, you need to first sort out whether you're talking about sentience, or sapience.

The geth can perceive, act with agency in the world, and recognize the agency of others. I fail to see how they can be declared non-sentient. Where the question of synthetic intelligence gets more convoluted is whether they truly possess wisdom or will, or only mimic it via complex, clever programming.

Modifié par marshalleck, 16 août 2011 - 06:52 .

[InvincibleHero]

marshalleck wrote...

The geth are clearly sentient. If you're going to start trotting out dictionary definitions to pass judgement on them, you need to first sort out whether you're talking about sentience, or sapience.

Defintions are the framework for meaning. If it cannot be satisfied then people are mislabeling the geth as sentient. It happens all the time. Sapience has no real meaning to the discussion anyways. I would say they lack wisdom and understanding as well. We might as well call BIG Blue sentient if the geth are.

Besides without the hardware platform the geth can percieve nothing. I was being generous in that regard.

If you can refute it do so, but you offer no primary evidence to back up your clearly sentient statement.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

http://social.biowar...5/index/4837694
This thread has been made before.


Edit: had the same window open twice.

Modifié par Humanoid_Typhoon, 16 août 2011 - 06:57 .

[InvincibleHero]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

Well if you're so sure why are you asking everyone?

I am not asking anyone. My conclusion is no. That is just the topic of the discussion. Obviously others are going to say yes so the broad topic works more than stating the geth are not sentient as the thread heading.

[Clonedzero]

yes

[Massadonious1]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

Well if you're so sure why are you asking everyone?

It's the, "If you think the opposite, then you are wrong" kind of question.

[marshalleck]

The distinction between sentience and sapience is especially important in science fiction when discussing the nature of synthetic intelligence, since many people tend to conflate the meaning of the two words. Which actually do have separate meaning.

Modifié par marshalleck, 16 août 2011 - 06:59 .

[Johnny34]

Not in the way we are, they can still percieve things and are clearly conscious.

[Raygereio]

Oh dear Ao. Do we really need this pop up at least once a week in various forms? 
To the OP: All arguments have been already been made, just do a search on the subject. It basically comes down to your own personal philosophical leanings whether or not you think artifical intelligence can be sentient.

Modifié par Raygereio, 16 août 2011 - 07:02 .

[InvincibleHero]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...


http://social.biowar...5/index/4837694
This thread has been made before.


Edit: had the same window open twice.

Thanks I read it which sadly didn't take long at all. Very few people actually put out a valid argument one way or the other. Wow 11 months is a long time between threads. i don't expect this to last long either being a tad intellectual after all.

[Sisterofshane]

In what way are you defining "feeling"? An emotion? Clearly some animals are devoid of human emotions, but have been attributed sentience. It is clear from talking to Legion that they have opinions on different matters, and clearly metaphysical matters such as "rights" and "life". I don't think these things were included in the original Quarian design.

The rest of your argument is semantics. You reason that because they are "machine" parts, that they no longer qualify under your definition.

So by your reasoning, did Shepard lose sentience when the Lazarus project replace her eyes with mechanical structures mimicking the eyes natural perception?

Was Saren not sentient because he clearly had artificial limbs that no longer allowed him to naturally feel and move and react with an organic nervous system?

The game is meant for us to "suspend" disbelief, and partake of and immerse ourselves in a fictional story. Just because machines cannot achieve sentience by real-life standards, doesn't mean that it is unattainable in this advanced fictional galactic future.

[xXljoshlXx]

Yes

[Rockworm503]

InvincibleHero wrote...

NO. Defined in Merriam Webster as the following capable of feeling : having perception.

So clearly no on the first part they have no feelings or emotions and do not feel pain or anything of the like. They have no empathy to draw on and probably consider that worthless anyway.

The second part needs perception defined. This is as follows: 1. Awareness of the environment through physical sensation 2. Ability to understand: insight, compreshension. Sensation requires input from sensory organs which are only possessed by plants and animals by definition so that's out. Mechanical sensors are not the same things even if they mimic some of the functions. I think they have a rudimentary ability to understand things but they use pure logic which is sometimes problematic.

So they only tentatively satisfy one of the requirements of sentience. By defintion both traits have to be present to satisfy the definition. They have intelligence as far as their programming and hardware will take them but that is all. They are no living being at all. They are the code not the hardware after all.

Why are you posting the thread title as a question when you've already decided the answer?

Also did you just skip through all of Legion's dialog?  Everything you just said was proven wrong with him.
They obviously have perception.  They go through consensus and have different viewpoints.
Chose Legion to go through the ducts in the suicide mission and tell me he's not feeling pain.

[InvincibleHero]

Clonedzero wrote...

yes

Care to elaborate? Are the definitions wrong?(I really hope no one would suggest that.)  Is my interpretation wrong? (Possible I suppose since I am not infallible.) Is it just your opinion backed with no evidence?

[Sisterofshane]

InvincibleHero wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...


http://social.biowar...5/index/4837694
This thread has been made before.


Edit: had the same window open twice.

Thanks I read it which sadly didn't take long at all. Very few people actually put out a valid argument one way or the other. Wow 11 months is a long time between threads. i don't expect this to last long either being a tad intellectual after all.

^Are you implying, sir, that there is no intelligence among the users at BSN?  What an impertinant thing to say.

And, to argue an earlier point, yes, I agree that definitions are paramount to rationalization and catagorization.  However, as new evidence becomes relevant, as technology and information improve, definitions are changed.  They are not static.

It is not unreasonable to assume that the realm of synthetic augmentation has improved so castly by the time of Mass effect that the very definition of "sentience" could be rewritten to include synthetic varieties.

Example, travel back in time 1000 years ago and ask someone to define the word "illness".  I can guarantee you that it held a vastly different meaning back before the discovery of microbes.

[InvincibleHero]

marshalleck wrote...

The distinction between sentience and sapience is especially important in science fiction when discussing the nature of synthetic intelligence, since many people tend to conflate the meaning of the two words. Which actually do have separate meaning.

I agree they are separate terms for good reason. Sapience does not define sentience and vice versa.

[Inutaisho7996]

InvincibleHero wrote...

NO. Defined in Merriam Webster as the following capable of feeling : having perception.

So clearly no on the first part they have no feelings or emotions and do not feel pain or anything of the like. They have no empathy to draw on and probably consider that worthless anyway.

The second part needs perception defined. This is as follows: 1. Awareness of the environment through physical sensation 2. Ability to understand: insight, compreshension. Sensation requires input from sensory organs which are only possessed by plants and animals by definition so that's out. Mechanical sensors are not the same things even if they mimic some of the functions. I think they have a rudimentary ability to understand things but they use pure logic which is sometimes problematic.

So they only tentatively satisfy one of the requirements of sentience. By defintion both traits have to be present to satisfy the definition. They have intelligence as far as their programming and hardware will take them but that is all. They are no living being at all. They are the code not the hardware after all.

If geth don't have emotions, why did Legion fix itself with Shepard's armor? It could have easily fixed itself with something else long before it found Shepard's armor, or, since the armor doesn't really fix the hole, it could have not fixed it at all.

[InvincibleHero]

Sisterofshane wrote...

In what way are you defining "feeling"? An emotion? Clearly some animals are devoid of human emotions, but have been attributed sentience. It is clear from talking to Legion that they have opinions on different matters, and clearly metaphysical matters such as "rights" and "life". I don't think these things were included in the original Quarian design.

The rest of your argument is semantics. You reason that because they are "machine" parts, that they no longer qualify under your definition.

So by your reasoning, did Shepard lose sentience when the Lazarus project replace her eyes with mechanical structures mimicking the eyes natural perception?

Was Saren not sentient because he clearly had artificial limbs that no longer allowed him to naturally feel and move and react with an organic nervous system?

The game is meant for us to "suspend" disbelief, and partake of and immerse ourselves in a fictional story. Just because machines cannot achieve sentience by real-life standards, doesn't mean that it is unattainable in this advanced fictional galactic future.

No feeling is via sensory organ which geth lack. They don't feel heat or even perceive light. Their hardware does everything. The geth are the code as Legion states many times. The hadware bodies are not the geth. They cannot do any perception without their hardware sensors. They have no capcity for emotions so that is moot anyway.

The funny thing is anything they learned came from observing the quarians and other species or from the extranet. They evaluate based on information and come to a consensus based on their logic programming.

Shepard is not 100 machine and his brain would still perceive things if indeed taken to the extreme. So would still possess sentience even if he were just like robocop without the brain overwrite part.

If at some future time they change the definition of sentience, I will agree with classifying the geth as possessing the trait. I am an emminently reasonable person.

[marshalleck]

InvincibleHero wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

The distinction between sentience and sapience is especially important in science fiction when discussing the nature of synthetic intelligence, since many people tend to conflate the meaning of the two words. Which actually do have separate meaning.

I agree they are separate terms for good reason. Sapience does not define sentience and vice versa.

The reason I initially mentioned that by the way, is in the last part of your second definition of sentience I thought it began to border on 'acting with wisdom' which would be more the domain of sapience. I think it conducive to discussion to delineate where all the qualifiers are. So if we are merely talking about the question of geth sentience, it should be most productive to talk about their ability to perceive and distinguish between the self and the environment.

[mauro2222]

InvincibleHero wrote...

No feeling is via sensory organ which geth lack. They don't feel heat or even perceive light. Their hardware does everything. The geth are the code as Legion states many times. The hadware bodies are not the geth. They cannot do any perception without their hardware sensors. They have no capcity for emotions so that is moot anyway.

Our bodies are hardware... our minds are software, is the same for the geth.

[mauro2222]

Johnny34 wrote...

Not in the way we are, they can still percieve things and are clearly conscious.

This

[InvincibleHero]

Johnny34 wrote...

Not in the way we are, they can still percieve things and are clearly conscious.

Yes they can react to stimuli, but that is no requirement of the definition of sentience. They can do things of their own volition, but again not part of the definition. Big Blue can play chess and beat grandmasters or Jeapardy masters, but sentient it is not. It has limited perception to be able to do that. Ageth is big blue on steroids and can take on a mobile robotic body. If big blue could somehow have infinite memory available and was able to be programmed for every eventuality or self-learning then you'd have a geth.

Without the hardware they perceive nothing at all. Certainly not as defined by having a physical sensory organ which is defined as being plant or animal in origin such as eyes or a cilia and so on.

A geth can be turned off so are they truly conscious? Even sleeping humans will feel pain and temperature and so on. I'd say not really in some ways yes when on they can react to what their sensors pick up.

[Sisterofshane]

InvincibleHero wrote...

No feeling is via sensory organ which geth lack. They don't feel heat or even perceive light. Their hardware does everything. The geth are the code as Legion states many times. The hadware bodies are not the geth. They cannot do any perception without their hardware sensors. They have no capcity for emotions so that is moot anyway.

The funny thing is anything they learned came from observing the quarians and other species or from the extranet. They evaluate based on information and come to a consensus based on their logic programming.

Shepard is not 100 machine and his brain would still perceive things if indeed taken to the extreme. So would still possess sentience even if he were just like robocop without the brain overwrite part.

If at some future time they change the definition of sentience, I will agree with classifying the geth as possessing the trait. I am an emminently reasonable person.

The Geth lack organic sensory organs.  Sensation is just the nervous system responding to outside stimuli by sending a message to the brain, which in turn processes the information against known variables, and then tells the body how to respond appropriately.  For example, I can put my hand on a hot plate.  The nerves in my hand send signals to my brain, which then decodes it as being "damage" obtained to the body, and I react in pain, pulling my hand away.

The geth can do the exact same thing, just not with organs that are developed by the multiplication and division of organic cells working in concert to acheive a set "task".  Actually, put that way, the human body sounds kind of mechanical.

And tell me, by your logic, if a human brain were to be "preserved" in a fashion, similar to a geth (uploading a consciousness into a computer) would the brain then not retain it's sentience?  Even if it maintained all of it's previous abilities, but just lacked a body with which to "sense"?

And in a sense, everything we know is either programmed within us through genetic "code", or is learned through observation and experience.  How does that make the Geth any less sentient then us?