200 réponses à ce sujet

[Inutaisho7996]

InvincibleHero wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

In what way are you defining "feeling"? An emotion? Clearly some animals are devoid of human emotions, but have been attributed sentience. It is clear from talking to Legion that they have opinions on different matters, and clearly metaphysical matters such as "rights" and "life". I don't think these things were included in the original Quarian design.

The rest of your argument is semantics. You reason that because they are "machine" parts, that they no longer qualify under your definition.

So by your reasoning, did Shepard lose sentience when the Lazarus project replace her eyes with mechanical structures mimicking the eyes natural perception?

Was Saren not sentient because he clearly had artificial limbs that no longer allowed him to naturally feel and move and react with an organic nervous system?

The game is meant for us to "suspend" disbelief, and partake of and immerse ourselves in a fictional story. Just because machines cannot achieve sentience by real-life standards, doesn't mean that it is unattainable in this advanced fictional galactic future.

No feeling is via sensory organ which geth lack. They don't feel heat or even perceive light. Their hardware does everything. The geth are the code as Legion states many times. The hadware bodies are not the geth. They cannot do any perception without their hardware sensors. They have no capcity for emotions so that is moot anyway.

The funny thing is anything they learned came from observing the quarians and other species or from the extranet. They evaluate based on information and come to a consensus based on their logic programming.

Shepard is not 100 machine and his brain would still perceive things if indeed taken to the extreme. So would still possess sentience even if he were just like robocop without the brain overwrite part.

If at some future time they change the definition of sentience, I will agree with classifying the geth as possessing the trait. I am an emminently reasonable person.

Your hardware does everything. Without eyes, your brain can't perceive light. Without nerves, your brain can't feel heat.

From  Merrian-Webster.com:Sentient
1 : responsive to or conscious of sense impressions <sentient beings>
2: aware
3: finely sensitive in perception or feeling

Legion clearly fits 1 and 2. If something doesn't fit ALL of its definitions is not as it's defined? If I am "[going] steadily by springing steps so that both feet leave the ground for an instant in each step" but I am not "contend[ing] in a race" am I still running?

Modifié par Inutaisho7996, 16 août 2011 - 07:39 .

[InvincibleHero]

Rockworm503 wrote...

Why are you posting the thread title as a question when you've already decided the answer?

Also did you just skip through all of Legion's dialog?  Everything you just said was proven wrong with him.
They obviously have perception.  They go through consensus and have different viewpoints.
Chose Legion to go through the ducts in the suicide mission and tell me he's not feeling pain.

Legion only says what a sentient writer programmed him to say. Whomever created the character can say what they want but they cannot redefine words. It would be erroneous but you offer no proof by citing Legion. If you can prove as sentience is defined that the geth possess it then knock yourself out.

I've never done so with Legion, but seriously what happens? Is it his sensors tell him he may become inoperative due to environmental factors or is he actually screaming and you can prove he truly feels pain internally? Is his code affected by the damage his body takes in other words? I highly doubt it is plausible in the least.

[Inutaisho7996]

InvincibleHero wrote...

Rockworm503 wrote...

Why are you posting the thread title as a question when you've already decided the answer?

Also did you just skip through all of Legion's dialog?  Everything you just said was proven wrong with him.
They obviously have perception.  They go through consensus and have different viewpoints.
Chose Legion to go through the ducts in the suicide mission and tell me he's not feeling pain.

Legion only says what a sentient writer programmed him to say. Whomever created the character can say what they want but they cannot redefine words. It would be erroneous but you offer no proof by citing Legion. If you can prove as sentience is defined that the geth possess it then knock yourself out.

I've never done so with Legion, but seriously what happens? Is it his sensors tell him he may become inoperative due to environmental factors or is he actually screaming and you can prove he truly feels pain internally? Is his code affected by the damage his body takes in other words? I highly doubt it is plausible in the least.

That's exactly what your body does.

[Rockworm503]

InvincibleHero wrote...

Rockworm503 wrote...

Why are you posting the thread title as a question when you've already decided the answer?

Also did you just skip through all of Legion's dialog?  Everything you just said was proven wrong with him.
They obviously have perception.  They go through consensus and have different viewpoints.
Chose Legion to go through the ducts in the suicide mission and tell me he's not feeling pain.

Legion only says what a sentient writer programmed him to say. Whomever created the character can say what they want but they cannot redefine words. It would be erroneous but you offer no proof by citing Legion. If you can prove as sentience is defined that the geth possess it then knock yourself out.

I've never done so with Legion, but seriously what happens? Is it his sensors tell him he may become inoperative due to environmental factors or is he actually screaming and you can prove he truly feels pain internally? Is his code affected by the damage his body takes in other words? I highly doubt it is plausible in the least.

This makes no sense in any possible way.
the claim you are making is that the Geth Killed and drove off the Quarians because they programmed them to.

[Arppis]

I'm glad people will find a way to be able justify their genocidal needs...

But hey, sensors do count, because they work exactly the same way as ears and eyes. Plus the Geth wouldn't fire at you or try to speak with you if they didn't know you are there. So you are wrong.

[ilquaruxa]

I've studied a lot of the philosophy of mind and phenomenology, so I'm getting a kick out of these replies. One won't get very far by citing dictionary definitions or by implying strict physicalism. This thread is hardly the tip of the philosophical iceberg. Please consult the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy for a reliable source for all your philsophical needs. It's really very good.

Modifié par ilquaruxa, 16 août 2011 - 07:58 .

[didymos1120]

InvincibleHero wrote...
 Is it his sensors tell him he may become inoperative due to environmental factors or is he actually screaming and you can prove he truly feels pain internally? 

Can you prove that anyone other than you truly feels pain internally?  Can you prove that you do to anyone not you?

Modifié par didymos1120, 16 août 2011 - 07:56 .

[Sisterofshane]

InvincibleHero wrote...

Rockworm503 wrote...

Why are you posting the thread title as a question when you've already decided the answer?

Also did you just skip through all of Legion's dialog?  Everything you just said was proven wrong with him.
They obviously have perception.  They go through consensus and have different viewpoints.
Chose Legion to go through the ducts in the suicide mission and tell me he's not feeling pain.

Legion only says what a sentient writer programmed him to say. Whomever created the character can say what they want but they cannot redefine words. It would be erroneous but you offer no proof by citing Legion. If you can prove as sentience is defined that the geth possess it then knock yourself out.

I've never done so with Legion, but seriously what happens? Is it his sensors tell him he may become inoperative due to environmental factors or is he actually screaming and you can prove he truly feels pain internally? Is his code affected by the damage his body takes in other words? I highly doubt it is plausible in the least.

You're not concerned about whether Legion can perceive "damage" as you are to whether he can ascribe a negative feeling to it.  He does not, because his species' evolution did not appropriate an emotional or physical reaction to the act of "damage".

Seemingly irrational emotions such as fear and reactions to pain are a result of millenia of conditioning, and the evolution of a single cell organism into one that is multicellular. I call it "programming" our cells and our brains to respond to certain stimuli in a certain manner. 

Pain is a great example.  Somewhere along the evolutionary line, the bodies' cells needed a way to tell the brain to avoid damage.  They do this through conditioning - when a cell is damaged, it becomes inflamed, and the brain signals the body to recoil physically to essentially stop the damage from progressing, or to warn the brain that damage is taking place.  Burning your hand on a hot plate, for example.  This scenario has now become coded into your memory -- the next time someone hands you a plate, you will be more cautious as to how you handle said plate.  Physical and emotional responses, designed to "protect" the body, and working in concert.  This is done because as organics, our body is irreplaceable, and takes time to repair any damage, if it can repair it at all.

Legion doesn't have that problem.  He doesn't need "pain" to assess a current state of damage, and doesn't need to worry about a natural healing process.  That doesn't make him incapable of percieving and reacting to damage to his "platform", he just does it in a different way.

And yes, some knowledge is "programmed" into him, but how is this any different then teaching a child not to stand in the middle of the road?  It is not knowledge he is born forthwith, but is still needed for him to have a chance at survival.

[AtreiyaN7]

Here's what I found on the Merrian-Webster site:

Definition of SENTIENT
1: responsive to or conscious of sense impressions <sentient beings>
2: aware
3: finely sensitive in perception or feeling

Examples of SENTIENT
<sentient of the danger posed by the approaching hurricane>
Origin of SENTIENT
Latin sentient-, sentiens, present participle of sentire to perceive, feel
First Known Use: 1632


I think item #2 under the definition is relevant: to be aware. The Geth ar capable of intelligent thought, they receive sensory input, and they react to that input and make decisions. They're very much aware of what's going on. They are totally sentient. Feeling pain as humans feel human is irrelevant to me. Someone who loses a limb and has a prosthetic replacement with which they cannot detect sensation isn't less sentient because they're unable to feel pain in their fake arm/hand/leg/whatever.

All that should really matter is whether or not what passes for the brain in an organic or non-organic being is capable of rational thought and perceiving and making sense of its surroundings, etc.

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 16 août 2011 - 08:22 .

[TobyHasEyes]

What is difficult in that description is being 'conscious of sense impressions', which is sufficiently difficult because we do not know enough about the brain to understand how it can produce conscious awareness and subjective experience (hence some believing it to be an illusion), and by that I would contend that we can not know if they are sentient or not at the moment

Hence my argument based on the moral consequences of reaching each conclusion;

If you treat them as sentient, at best you are acknowledging their status and treating them accordingly, at worst you are wasting moral effort on an unconscious machine

If you treat them as non-sentient, at best you aren't wasting moral effort on an unconscious machine, at worst you are being truly oppressive and torturous to a sentient being

For me, the choice of which is the bigger risk is clear

[jtrook]

The geth do have a semblance of sentience. In the codex(along with everything else) The geth initially started asking questions about their existence and purpose. The quarians see this as a threat and decided to destroy them. The geth defended themselves in an act of self preservation. The first sign of them being sentient comes from them showing awareness and curiosity about the world around them and themselves and showing ascension beyond basic instincts (programming). The self-defense in a sense, is them defying their own programming. So my finally word is yes. They have achieved sentient status.

[CrookedAsylum]

InvincibleHero wrote...
 Is it his sensors tell him he may become inoperative due to environmental factors or is he actually screaming and you can prove he truly feels pain internally? 

-insert obligatory arguement about people with CIPA here-

[Candidate 88766]

If we're going to do this based on definitions, then this is how they are defined by the Oxford English Dictionary:

Sentient - able to perceive or feel things.

The Geth can perceive the world around them, therefore they are sentient.

There's no room for misunderstanding here: the Geth are able to perceive the world around them via sensory input (the same as any organic being would) and so they have met one of the requirements for sentience. Sentience only requires one of the two conditions, therefore they are sentient.

[TobyHasEyes]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

If we're going to do this based on definitions, then this is how they are defined by the Oxford English Dictionary:

Sentient - able to perceive or feel things.

The Geth can perceive the world around them, therefore they are sentient.

There's no room for misunderstanding here: the Geth are able to perceive the world around them via sensory input (the same as any organic being would) and so they have met one of the requirements for sentience. Sentience only requires one of the two conditions, therefore they are sentient.

 Not that I am a rabid 'only organics can be sentient/conscious/free etc.' poster, but that smacks of a VERY low standard for what counts as 'sentient'. People use the term to put them on an equivalent moral worth as organic life and even human/alien minds; but even a basic robot with a camera can 'perceive' the world, the question is whether they have a subjective experience of that perception, which we can not easily prove either way

[Garrus.Vakarian]

oh great a geth hater. probably a taliban.

[Gabey5]

yes, also definitions change, this takes place in the future, and our limited preconceptions of what is and is not sentient changes.

Modifié par Gabey5, 16 août 2011 - 11:30 .

[Zkyire]

InvincibleHero wrote...

NO. Defined in Merriam Webster as the following capable of feeling : having perception.

So clearly no on the first part they have no feelings or emotions and do not feel pain or anything of the like. They have no empathy to draw on and probably consider that worthless anyway.

The second part needs perception defined. This is as follows: 1. Awareness of the environment through physical sensation 2. Ability to understand: insight, compreshension. Sensation requires input from sensory organs which are only possessed by plants and animals by definition so that's out. Mechanical sensors are not the same things even if they mimic some of the functions. I think they have a rudimentary ability to understand things but they use pure logic which is sometimes problematic.

So they only tentatively satisfy one of the requirements of sentience. By defintion both traits have to be present to satisfy the definition. They have intelligence as far as their programming and hardware will take them but that is all. They are no living being at all. They are the code not the hardware after all.

"Sorry Legion, my dictionary says you're not sentient."

"But.. we are."

"Nope, sorry.

Modifié par IEatWhatIPoo, 16 août 2011 - 11:41 .

[Logical Escape]

TobyHasEyes wrote...

 Not that I am a rabid 'only organics can be sentient/conscious/free etc.' poster, but that smacks of a VERY low standard for what counts as 'sentient'. People use the term to put them on an equivalent moral worth as organic life and even human/alien minds; but even a basic robot with a camera can 'perceive' the world, the question is whether they have a subjective experience of that perception, which we can not easily prove either way

Is a robot with a camera perceiving the world and is aware that he is perceiving the world?  A robot with a camera may receive all sorts of sensory input, but is he able to process it and come to the conclusion that he is on a desk, or a robot with a camera on his head?

Geth are capable of coming to that conclusion.  They are aware of what they are.  They understand their history.  They come to consensuses.   They are able to take sensory input and process it and come out with similar conclusions as humans.  Simply because their hardware is not organic does not mean they are not sentient.

Modifié par Logical Escape, 16 août 2011 - 12:00 .

[Boiny Bunny]

Inutaisho7996 wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...

Rockworm503 wrote...

Why are you posting the thread title as a question when you've already decided the answer?

Also did you just skip through all of Legion's dialog?  Everything you just said was proven wrong with him.
They obviously have perception.  They go through consensus and have different viewpoints.
Chose Legion to go through the ducts in the suicide mission and tell me he's not feeling pain.

Legion only says what a sentient writer programmed him to say. Whomever created the character can say what they want but they cannot redefine words. It would be erroneous but you offer no proof by citing Legion. If you can prove as sentience is defined that the geth possess it then knock yourself out.

I've never done so with Legion, but seriously what happens? Is it his sensors tell him he may become inoperative due to environmental factors or is he actually screaming and you can prove he truly feels pain internally? Is his code affected by the damage his body takes in other words? I highly doubt it is plausible in the least.

That's exactly what your body does.

Exactly!  Humans do not 'feel' anything physical as you seen to be imagining it - your nervous system is merely programmed to send a signal to your brain in response to particular external stimuli - no different whatsoever to Legion.

Modifié par Boiny Bunny, 16 août 2011 - 12:02 .

[EternalPink]

InvincibleHero wrote...

NO. Defined in Merriam Webster as the following capable of feeling : having perception.

So clearly no on the first part they have no feelings or emotions and do not feel pain or anything of the like. They have no empathy to draw on and probably consider that worthless anyway.

The second part needs perception defined. This is as follows: 1. Awareness of the environment through physical sensation 2. Ability to understand: insight, compreshension. Sensation requires input from sensory organs which are only possessed by plants and animals by definition so that's out. Mechanical sensors are not the same things even if they mimic some of the functions. I think they have a rudimentary ability to understand things but they use pure logic which is sometimes problematic.

So they only tentatively satisfy one of the requirements of sentience. By defintion both traits have to be present to satisfy the definition. They have intelligence as far as their programming and hardware will take them but that is all. They are no living being at all. They are the code not the hardware after all.

For someone wanting to use dictionary definitions i think you should look up debate and discussion and then not try and start one with a loaded question.

(Or is this just a troll?)

[Inverness Moon]

Oh look, it's this thread again.

[Reever]

Doesn´t matter what you think, it only matters what my Shepard(s) think!

[The_11thDoctor]

marshalleck wrote...

The geth are clearly sentient. If you're going to start trotting out dictionary definitions to pass judgement on them, you need to first sort out whether you're talking about sentience, or sapience.

The geth can perceive, act with agency in the world, and recognize the agency of others. I fail to see how they can be declared non-sentient. Where the question of synthetic intelligence gets more convoluted is whether they truly possess wisdom or will, or only mimic it via complex, clever programming.

This.

Besides, you've played ME2 right? How could you come up with anything different?(To OP) Legion is not sentient?! Maker's breath man you're ignorant... Besides, dont you think thats why this whole war with the geth and Quarians started? They found out they were sentient and had self awareness and that's why they could no longer use them as workers, cause it was basically slavery.  Self awareness is asking about your self, wanting to know more about things around you, asking questions... PLAY Mass Effect and close this thread! It''s like you skipped the story and posted or NEVER played the series!