200 réponses à ce sujet

[CMDR Locke]

Ryzaki wrote...

Huh. Odd that the quarians programmed the geth to make memorials for those they killed and show something similar to (if not completely) remorse.

Because, grave digger, lawn mower, and janitor are jobs that any person would want to work?  They already had those programs.  Those concepts where written into their programming.

I'm not saying the Geth "are not" sentient.  I'm saying that we have not seen been presented with unquestionable proof they are.

Take the new Planet of the Apes movie.  It's very clear that long before Ceaser is hit by virus 113 that he is sentient.  He displays complex ideas and understanding.  

He already knows he's sentient.  Whether he knows the definition of the word doesn't matter.  The question he asks is "Am I a pet?"  When he sees a dog wearing a leash and he is also wearing a leash.

Simply asking "Do I have a soul." doesn't prove anything.  If that word didn't exist what would you replace it with?  If the concept of spiritualism/religion never happened we wouldn't have asked such a thing.  Does that mean we as Humans wouldn't be sentient?  By saying "Oh if they ask if they have a soul that proves they're sentient."  would mean that to be sentient one must possess "belief" "faith" "religion" to be sentient at which point I wish to let you all know I am not sentient, because I do not believe in religion, god, or voodoo.

[Dean_the_Young]

marshalleck wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

I thought the quarians built the geth to be slaves.

LOVE slaves.

Legion for Love Interest in ME3!

(After all, he has a vibrate function. And a hole.)

[CMDR Locke]

marshalleck wrote...

CMDR Locke wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

CMDR Locke wrote...

Quit using the act of Geth killing Quarians as an arguement for self preservation.  They did nothing that a Quarian program didn't tell them to do.

Did a quarian program compell them to ask if they possessed souls?

Of course it did.  The quarian programmed them to share data, and information.  The Geth was using it's programing to obtain data it didn't have.  And why would you program a Geth with such information as to whether it had a soul, or was alive.

Even when it asked what its purpose is, is easily defined as it having conflicting program issues.  "Am I a miner or a soldier?  I have both programs."  Instead it worded it simply "What is my purpse.?  Hell it's a question I ask in every new job or task I am presented with. "So what do I do? Or, what's the purpose of this?

Then why were the quarians caught by surprise at the geth's rise to consciousness? And why would they program the geth to slaughter their own species?

I think you're just talking whatever random crap pops into your head and what you imagine about synthetic intelligence, NOT what is actually presented in the game and its lore about the geth. Which is why this conversation is always ultimately useless.

You think all Quarian across the worlds was happy go lucky?  You don't think like every other secies so are mercs some are thugs and some are police?  Of course the Geth had programs to kill Quarian, who were the Quarians warring with if not themselves.

So you use the arguement that what you think I'm thinking is why I say what I say, when you chatise me for thinking what the Quarian think when programming Geth?

[marshalleck]

CMDR Locke wrote...

So you use the arguement that what you think I'm thinking is why I say what I say, when you chatise me for thinking what the Quarian think when programming Geth?

What?

[Ryzaki]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

I thought the quarians built the geth to be slaves.

LOVE slaves.

Legion for Love Interest in ME3!

(After all, he has a vibrate function. And a hole.)

Oh great now I have that picture stuck in my mind. Thanks. 

[CMDR Locke]

Saphra Deden wrote...

I thought the quarians built the geth to be slaves.

One can not enslave a computer program.  It exists purely to run it's program and nothing else.

[CMDR Locke]

marshalleck wrote...

CMDR Locke wrote...

So you use the arguement that what you think I'm thinking is why I say what I say, when you chatise me for thinking what the Quarian think when programming Geth?

What?

I apoligize me not making sense there.  It comes down to this, everything that been presented about the Geth can be explained by the fact they have hundreds of thousands of programs for almost anything you could think of.

Combat, Gravekeeper, Burger Flipper, Crash Test Dummy, Construction, Pilot, Hazmat Cleanup, Data Entry, Library Book Filing, Medical Care, Sponge Bath Expert.

Anything, and that when they are networked together to pass on the details of each program to each Geth Platform that sentience would be easy to see when it's nothing more than simulated sentience due to a massive library of programs to pull logic from.

That's the point of a census.  Each program is applied to each outside stimulus to see which programs dictate which action.  A Baking program for instance may not say to rewrite the heretics, because destroying a recipe would be silly when you could just rewrite it.

[DCarter]

CMDR Locke wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

CMDR Locke wrote...

So you use the arguement that what you think I'm thinking is why I say what I say, when you chatise me for thinking what the Quarian think when programming Geth?

What?

I apoligize me not making sense there.  It comes down to this, everything that been presented about the Geth can be explained by the fact they have hundreds of thousands of programs for almost anything you could think of.

Combat, Gravekeeper, Burger Flipper, Crash Test Dummy, Construction, Pilot, Hazmat Cleanup, Data Entry, Library Book Filing, Medical Care, Sponge Bath Expert.

Anything, and that when they are networked together to pass on the details of each program to each Geth Platform that sentience would be easy to see when it's nothing more than simulated sentience due to a massive library of programs to pull logic from.

That's the point of a census.  Each program is applied to each outside stimulus to see which programs dictate which action.  A Baking program for instance may not say to rewrite the heretics, because destroying a recipe would be silly when you could just rewrite it.

Where as our sentinence is real sentinece because we're made of flesh? The geth can percieve their environment, reason and feel (not the same set of emotions as humans but feel none the less). So what does it matter whether this sentinence is derived from programmes and not neurons? 

[SkittlesKat96]

I don't think anything in the Mass Effect series has shown that they are sentient, has there?

Humans are sentient because we feel pain, empathy and emotions and whatnot. This is programmed into our brains.

Theoretically (especially in a FICTIONAL universe) it might be possible that the Geth could have been programmed to have these advanced experiences, feelings and emotions.

The problem is so far I don't think there has been any evidence that the Geth are like this...

The whole thing is too confusing for me though and I know that if I keep talking about this someone will argue with me about the importance and limitations of sentience so I'll leave this to other people to discuss...I just thought I'd throw some of my thoughts out there.

[marshalleck]

SkittlesKat96 wrote...

I don't think anything in the Mass Effect series has shown that they are sentient, has there?

Humans are sentient because we feel pain, empathy and emotions and whatnot. This is programmed into our brains.

Theoretically (especially in a FICTIONAL universe) it might be possible that the Geth could have been programmed to have these advanced experiences, feelings and emotions.

The problem is so far I don't think there has been any evidence that the Geth are like this...

The whole thing is too confusing for me though and I know that if I keep talking about this someone will argue with me about the importance and limitations of sentience so I'll leave this to other people to discuss...I just thought I'd throw some of my thoughts out there.

I think your confusion stems from a tendency in science fiction to conflate the terms sentience and sapience. Sentience is not limited to what we contemporarily recognize as "human" qualities. It is merely the ability to perceive and experience subjective qualia and have a conscious sense of "self" separate from one's environment. Again, many animals on Earth in the real world are sentient, as are all the advanced species in Mass Effect including the geth. The question of the geth's "free will" is a bit more murky, although many of the arguments against can and have been made against humans in some philosophical circles.  We'll have to wait for neuroscience to advance and solve this one for us.

Modifié par marshalleck, 16 août 2011 - 04:16 .

[Erani]

Yes, they are sentient. Individually, they are non-sentient, but when they form a network they gain awareness (even self-awareness as they have a concept of "Geth"), sentience, and I believe sapience.

[DCarter]

SkittlesKat96 wrote...

I don't think anything in the Mass Effect series has shown that they are sentient, has there?

Humans are sentient because we feel pain, empathy and emotions and whatnot. This is programmed into our brains.

Theoretically (especially in a FICTIONAL universe) it might be possible that the Geth could have been programmed to have these advanced experiences, feelings and emotions.

The problem is so far I don't think there has been any evidence that the Geth are like this...

The whole thing is too confusing for me though and I know that if I keep talking about this someone will argue with me about the importance and limitations of sentience so I'll leave this to other people to discuss...I just thought I'd throw some of my thoughts out there.

Due to the nature of the geth being a fictional creation there's a limited amount of information about them. However it's pretty damn clear that the writers intended for the geth to be sentinent, when the quarians decided to try and shut them down it was because they had begun asking questions like "am i live" or "do i have a soul?" Would you characterise these questions as being typical of a non-sentinent being? 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I'm pretty sure the Bioware devs themselves have called them sentient at some point.

[Clonedzero]

when getting into the realm of sci-fi you cant use modern day definitions of conciousness, or life, or any of that stuff.

[Someone With Mass]

I always found it weird how Legion thought it was appropriate to name himself after a biblical demon.

[marshalleck]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

I'll be honest, I have trouble with the idea of a computer program being sentient--after all, isn't it merely 1s and 0s?

Sure. However, the following can be said of people:

"your joys and your sorrows, your memories and your ambitions, your sense of personal identity and free will, are in fact no more than the behaviour of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their assorted molecules. As Lewis Carroll's Alice might have phrased it: 'You're nothing but a pack of neurons.'
--Francis Crick, The Astonishing Hypothesis

[Erani]

Someone With Mass wrote...

I always found it weird how Legion thought it was appropriate to name himself after a biblical demon.

This doesn't have anything to do with Legion's motives. He finds it appropriate because of the "my name is ____ and we are many" since the Geth are many but together form One consciousness.

[Darkelefantos1]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

I'll be honest, I have trouble with the idea of a computer program being sentient--after all, isn't it merely 1s and 0s? However, you cannot speak to Legion and believe that "he" isn't self aware in some way. From his own dialog on his name ("Mark 5:9, Christian Bible. This is appropriate.") to the way he despairs about the heretics ("How could we have grown so different?") it is clear he is more than an intelligent machine.

Or his remark towards individuality. When Shepard explains that individuals taking different paths meetingagain might not get along, he questions the concept of individualism and also human ideals. 
Questioning the concept of individuality requires sentience and self-awareness, because nobody would programm them to do so.

[The Twilight God]

Does anyone posess wisdom or will, or only the illusion via complex, clever programming. At the end of the day the physical form of a human being in the third dimension is a bunch of electrons, neutons and protons. Each considered to be non-sentient. Each considered to have no self-will. So where does entience come from and what is the will behind the atom?  

How many non-sentient things does it take to make a sentient thing while each individual non-sentient remains non-sentient? The things that define sentience are paradoxical if limited only to a physical science. The physical organization of organic matter does not inherently imply sentience to any greater degree than inorganic matter. It's all the same stuff. 

To say humans are sentient be virtue of construction material, while geth are not based on the same criteria is akin to saying a steak is capable of more sentience than a motherboard.

[Omnicrat]

CMDR Locke wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

In what way are you defining "feeling"? An emotion? Clearly some animals are devoid of human emotions, but have been attributed sentience. It is clear from talking to Legion that they have opinions on different matters, and clearly metaphysical matters such as "rights" and "life". I don't think these things were included in the original Quarian design.

The rest of your argument is semantics. You reason that because they are "machine" parts, that they no longer qualify under your definition.

So by your reasoning, did Shepard lose sentience when the Lazarus project replace her eyes with mechanical structures mimicking the eyes natural perception?

Was Saren not sentient because he clearly had artificial limbs that no longer allowed him to naturally feel and move and react with an organic nervous system?

The game is meant for us to "suspend" disbelief, and partake of and immerse ourselves in a fictional story. Just because machines cannot achieve sentience by real-life standards, doesn't mean that it is unattainable in this advanced fictional galactic future.

Which Animal that is devoid of human emotion has been labeled sentient?

Apes (who should have rights as a sentient species they can be taught 1000's of  words in sign and short of understand complex social paradims are equal to us in almost every way) , Dolphins (the only species to have sex because it's fun besides humans), Elaphants, and what else?

Well rats for one.  Possibly all rodents.  I'm pretty sure dogs.  Maybe cats.  Pigs I'm almost positive about.

Based upon the current recognized defenition, many animals (at least seemingly) devoid of human emotions (such as rats) are classified as sentient.  I'm surprized no one has mentioned this explicitly yet...

[TheZyzyva]

The Twilight God wrote...

Does anyone posess wisdom or will, or only the illusion via complex, clever programming. At the end of the day the physical form of a human being in the third dimension is a bunch of electrons, neutons and protons. Each considered to be non-sentient. Each considered to have no self-will. So where does entience come from and what is the will behind the atom?  

How many non-sentient things does it take to make a sentient thing while each individual non-sentient remains non-sentient? The things that define sentience are paradoxical if limited only to a physical science. The physical organization of organic matter does not inherently imply sentience to any greater degree than inorganic matter. It's all the same stuff. 

To say humans are sentient be virtue of construction material, while geth are not based on the same criteria is akin to saying a steak is capable of more sentience than a motherboard.

Science!

@CMDR My biggest proplem with your arguments is that you're assuming a lot about the Geth creation but saying it as fact. We don't know how the Geth were first programmed, we don't know what they were programmed to do other than whatever the Quarians told them to do. Yes, they had to be improved for more complex tasks (I think Tali tells us that) but that doesn't mean they had more, specific programs added. Rather more adaptive programs would be much more realistic. Also, why assume they were built for combat also? There's no reason to think that the Quarians were at war with anyone. None of the other races appear to be seperate nation states, and the only ones openly militaristic are the Turians and Batarians.

Now I need to go find the last geth thread I posted in, because I rocked that ****.

[Nizzemancer]

InvincibleHero wrote...

NO. Defined in Merriam Webster as the following capable of feeling : having perception.

So clearly no on the first part they have no feelings or emotions and do not feel pain or anything of the like. They have no empathy to draw on and probably consider that worthless anyway.

The second part needs perception defined. This is as follows: 1. Awareness of the environment through physical sensation 2. Ability to understand: insight, compreshension. Sensation requires input from sensory organs which are only possessed by plants and animals by definition so that's out. Mechanical sensors are not the same things even if they mimic some of the functions. I think they have a rudimentary ability to understand things but they use pure logic which is sometimes problematic.

So they only tentatively satisfy one of the requirements of sentience. By defintion both traits have to be present to satisfy the definition. They have intelligence as far as their programming and hardware will take them but that is all. They are no living being at all. They are the code not the hardware after all.

Having perception: Check
Awareness of the environment : Check

John Connor: Does it hurt when you get shot?
The Terminator: I sense injuries. The data could be called "pain."


Edit:  Try a mirror test, apart from 3+ year old humans only 9 other animals pass it. And I'm fairly certain that Legion can recognize himself in a mirror...

Modifié par Nizzemancer, 16 août 2011 - 06:09 .