200 réponses à ce sujet

[CitizenSnips]

Wow what a terrible argument for your position Invincible. You take an dictionary definition and proceed to equate "feeling" with "emotion". Oh and that's on top of the other stuff like the nature of quantum physics and its implications on what reality even is, arguments for and against the nature of free will, what life actually is, and a myriad of other very complex subjects that would all have bearing on the issue you approach. But cool I'll take your internet word for it.

[TheZyzyva]

From a similar thread, people were trying to justify a Geth genocide, I argued against:

Truely we know very little about the Geth. What we do know is that they are smarter as they grow in number, and that Legion is likely the smartest single platform since he bears 10x more Geth than any other onewe know of. We know that they share information through their platforms, but must network up to share specifics. We know that they are capable of coming to different conclusions through the heretics, although it seems that they rarely ever act outside the majority. And weknow that single programs are often inconsequential to the whole as they are often shuffled about in the network and share data and vicariously a personality.

What we don't know is a much bigger story. Legion tells us almost all that we know of the Geth, but it's what he simply is that hints at so much more, and is left unclear. Do Geth have emotions? Despite what Legion says, he appears to certainly have some. At the very least, Shepard holds some sentimental value to him as can be concluded to it being Shepards armor he uses to patch up ahole that was two years old. Can Legion be recreated? He has been away from the network for two years, and we can make a logical leap that thatwould be longer than any platform has been on its own. How much has changed with his Geth coding over that time and is he even compatible with the network anymore? Or is he now the next step up with no bacwardscompatibilty? That Legion is so unique and so far removed from the restof the Geth makes him so very interesting, to me at least, and certainly shows just how "alive" the Geth can be. 

Maybe my thoughts on the matter go to far, but to me Legion is the next step for the Geth. He says they want to be as one, but I believe that he shows them headed down a different path, one of differentation and uniqueness,one that would lead to a wholely realized Geth culture in the future. They're not there yet, but they're certainly in infancy. 

Not to start a whole other flame war, but killing of the Geth to me is akin to abortion, only not of one creature, but an entire species. Obviously I have  made some assumptions and leaps, but Legion truely intrigues me for those reasons. If he is still only a machine to you, then I don't think I can do anything more to change your mind. Sorry for the long winded post, I'm just really into the Geth storyline.

ADDED: Of course, one big issue I overlooked is that Legion might simply be the dev team trying to give us a cool Geth member and he doesn't actually have any implications. For instance, it was brought up sending him through the tube in the SM, if you go slowly and let the heat build up, when he talks to you he sounds quite distressed. Whether that is because he really is or a dev choice because cold robotic monotone isn't very motivational can't really be known unless we get a major Geth plot line in ME3.

*Edit: Formatting was all screwy.

Modifié par TheZyzyva, 16 août 2011 - 06:14 .

[Garrus.Vakarian]

Luc0s wrote...

Garrus.Vakarian wrote...

oh great a geth hater. probably a taliban.

I would be all for a taliban on the normandy, if you get what I mean.

I don't mind Quarians for what they are. It's just that I dislike Geth haters, and Quarians (especially Tali) HATE Geth. If they were all like Admiral Koris, or at least reasonable like Kal'Reegar I would accept them. 

[Omnicrat]

The argument seems to have broken into two separate arguments; 1) Are Geth Sentient, and 2) Do the Geth have will.

As to the first point, I say yes. As we currently define sentience, rats qualify.  All one needs is to have some form of awarness that they exist and interact with their environment.  The fact that get can question what tey are (regardless of the reason for such questions) shows that they have a distinction between themselves and their suroundings.

To the other point, I also say yes. The first argument people have made that I will adress is that "Geth will" could be an illusion created by the massive complexity created from the neural network and the interaction of vastly different VIs programed for vastly different tasks, to this I have a simple counter-argument: Where does human will come form? Currently, we do not know, and some even question its existence (Which they use their will to do, which I find hilarious). But, assuming will exists, and humans posses it, it would need to be emergent from the incredibly complex interaction between neurons. Therefor why would the Geth neural network not function in a similar way, causing the emergence of a single Geth consciousness? To the other argument, all apparent will comes from the specific programs I have two things to ask; 1) How could any concensus be achieved? Would not each program always thing the situation as aplied to its field would be the correct responce, no matter what? and 2) Can you tell the the testable difference between an emergent "trick" that makes will seem aparent and emergent will?

[edit: forgot to say why the first point was yes]

Modifié par Omnicrat, 16 août 2011 - 07:02 .

[Logical Escape]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

But, to the OP, the answer would be 'define sentience.' By a number of definitions (such as free will), the Geth are not. However, if you are a believer in absolute determinism (that all thoughts and actions in the future can be predicted in advance if you have the inputs) and don't believe in the concept of Human free will, then there is no difference between Geth and Humans, though that equivalence may well be a disproval of the concept of sentience rather than an affirmation for both.

That's not a question of sentience, that's a question of sapience.

The current definition for sentience is a simple check: is the entity self-aware?  As mentioned, the mirror test is the most easily referenced example.  If you place a geth in front of a mirror, can he recognize that he is looking at his own reflection?  http://en.wikipedia....iki/Mirror_test

Unless you want to argue that, if you placed Legion in front of a mirror or a pool of water, he wouldn't be able to recognize his own reflection, then there is no real argument that geth are not, or cannot be, sentient.

Your question asks if they are sapient, to which there cannot be an answer given our current understanding of science and philosophy.  It's an entirely epistemological argument.  Do humans have free will?  Are humans more than just impulses from a collection of neurons?

Because we can't know for certain, the most we can say is that we don't know whether or not humans or geth are sapient.  If we come to the conclusion that humans are sapient, what's to say that the geth aren't?  What prevents a collection of programs and hardware from functioning in the same way as a colelction of electrical impulses and neurons?

Modifié par Logical Escape, 16 août 2011 - 10:30 .

[marshalleck]

Logical Escape wrote...

Because we can't know for certain, the most we can say is that we don't know whether or not humans or geth are sapient.  If we come to the conclusion that humans are sapient, what's to say that the geth aren't?  What prevents a collection of programs and hardware from functioning in the same way as a colelction of electrical impulses and neurons?

Or, rather, achieving the same end result.

[Boiny Bunny]

CMDR Locke wrote...

Jeth Prime wrote...

I'm sick of these threads.... People ignoring every detail about them to say "their just robots" Blah blah blah....

The only arguement that needs to be made is that Geth have not shown if they are sentient, or just simulate sentience through complex program sharing via the neural network.

In the same way that humans 'simulate' sentience through a complex neural network in their brains?

[CMDR Locke]

TheZyzyva wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

Does anyone posess wisdom or will, or only the illusion via complex, clever programming. At the end of the day the physical form of a human being in the third dimension is a bunch of electrons, neutons and protons. Each considered to be non-sentient. Each considered to have no self-will. So where does entience come from and what is the will behind the atom?  

How many non-sentient things does it take to make a sentient thing while each individual non-sentient remains non-sentient? The things that define sentience are paradoxical if limited only to a physical science. The physical organization of organic matter does not inherently imply sentience to any greater degree than inorganic matter. It's all the same stuff. 

To say humans are sentient be virtue of construction material, while geth are not based on the same criteria is akin to saying a steak is capable of more sentience than a motherboard.

Science!

@CMDR My biggest proplem with your arguments is that you're assuming a lot about the Geth creation but saying it as fact. We don't know how the Geth were first programmed, we don't know what they were programmed to do other than whatever the Quarians told them to do. Yes, they had to be improved for more complex tasks (I think Tali tells us that) but that doesn't mean they had more, specific programs added. Rather more adaptive programs would be much more realistic. Also, why assume they were built for combat also? There's no reason to think that the Quarians were at war with anyone. None of the other races appear to be seperate nation states, and the only ones openly militaristic are the Turians and Batarians.

Now I need to go find the last geth thread I posted in, because I rocked that ****.

Actually we do know what they programmed to do.  The were programmed for simple Labor, and Military applications.  We know they had a neural network to share information, and we know they were intended to have ONE program per platform.

The Neural network allows multiple programs to be housed in the same platform. 

Due to that all Geth Platforms were able to respond with Military reactions to the percieved threat.After all how could they protect if they were all terminated?

[CMDR Locke]

Boiny Bunny wrote...

CMDR Locke wrote...

Jeth Prime wrote...

I'm sick of these threads.... People ignoring every detail about them to say "their just robots" Blah blah blah....

The only arguement that needs to be made is that Geth have not shown if they are sentient, or just simulate sentience through complex program sharing via the neural network.

In the same way that humans 'simulate' sentience through a complex neural network in their brains?

If we are the species defining what sentiece is then it is what we say it is.  The inclusion of other things is then based on our definition.

In the Mass Effect world no species to my knowledge has said Geth are sentient.

No one said EDI was sentient either.  But, in her defense she does displaty more emotion than Legion.  At no point does she respond with "No Data Available."  She calls other crewmembers her shipmates(crewmates)  She describes a platonic friendship and even has one.  Legion the most sophisticated Geth Platform does none of this.

[ODST 5723]

They are most certainly sentient

[xX N7 Xx]

You sound like Fraiser...
I couldnt care for this conversation. Theyre not androids so they don't have emotions if that helps. Although a geth did ask if it goes to heaven which could suggest some form of emotion or just curiosity

[Omnicrat]

CMDR Locke wrote...

TheZyzyva wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

Does anyone posess wisdom or will, or only the illusion via complex, clever programming. At the end of the day the physical form of a human being in the third dimension is a bunch of electrons, neutons and protons. Each considered to be non-sentient. Each considered to have no self-will. So where does entience come from and what is the will behind the atom?  

How many non-sentient things does it take to make a sentient thing while each individual non-sentient remains non-sentient? The things that define sentience are paradoxical if limited only to a physical science. The physical organization of organic matter does not inherently imply sentience to any greater degree than inorganic matter. It's all the same stuff. 

To say humans are sentient be virtue of construction material, while geth are not based on the same criteria is akin to saying a steak is capable of more sentience than a motherboard.

Science!

@CMDR My biggest proplem with your arguments is that you're assuming a lot about the Geth creation but saying it as fact. We don't know how the Geth were first programmed, we don't know what they were programmed to do other than whatever the Quarians told them to do. Yes, they had to be improved for more complex tasks (I think Tali tells us that) but that doesn't mean they had more, specific programs added. Rather more adaptive programs would be much more realistic. Also, why assume they were built for combat also? There's no reason to think that the Quarians were at war with anyone. None of the other races appear to be seperate nation states, and the only ones openly militaristic are the Turians and Batarians.

Now I need to go find the last geth thread I posted in, because I rocked that ****.

Actually we do know what they programmed to do.  The were programmed for simple Labor, and Military applications.  We know they had a neural network to share information, and we know they were intended to have ONE program per platform.

The Neural network allows multiple programs to be housed in the same platform. 

Due to that all Geth Platforms were able to respond with Military reactions to the percieved threat.After all how could they protect if they were all terminated?

Wait, wait, wait.  Who said that?  I don't remember that at all.  That doesn't even make sense.  The programs are supposed to be very rudimentery, but still, if the hardwear was built to only hold one program, no amount of networking could allow the platform to gain capacity for new programs, unless the complexity of programs was greatly reduced.

What would you consider evidence that the Geth are in fact sentient (or as you might be arguing, sapient)?

[marshalleck]

CMDR Locke wrote...

Boiny Bunny wrote...

CMDR Locke wrote...

Jeth Prime wrote...

I'm sick of these threads.... People ignoring every detail about them to say "their just robots" Blah blah blah....

The only arguement that needs to be made is that Geth have not shown if they are sentient, or just simulate sentience through complex program sharing via the neural network.

In the same way that humans 'simulate' sentience through a complex neural network in their brains?

If we are the species defining what sentiece is then it is what we say it is.  The inclusion of other things is then based on our definition.

In the Mass Effect world no species to my knowledge has said Geth are sentient.

No one said EDI was sentient either.  But, in her defense she does displaty more emotion than Legion.  At no point does she respond with "No Data Available."  She calls other crewmembers her shipmates(crewmates)  She describes a platonic friendship and even has one.  Legion the most sophisticated Geth Platform does none of this.

In the Mass Effect world, "artificial intelligence" is a known quantity. They know what processes govern the mind, and how to model those processes with technology to create intelligent machines. They already have it figured out. And most everyone in the galaxy accepts that the geth, EDI, and other AIs are the real deal. In fact, you never see anyone argue to the contrary. 

It's only by modern real world definitions that things get confused, because we don't even have the answers to what makes humans tick, much less currently non-existant intelligent machine races.

Modifié par marshalleck, 17 août 2011 - 01:26 .

[InvincibleHero]

Sisterofshane wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...


http://social.biowar...5/index/4837694
This thread has been made before.


Edit: had the same window open twice.

Thanks I read it which sadly didn't take long at all. Very few people actually put out a valid argument one way or the other. Wow 11 months is a long time between threads. i don't expect this to last long either being a tad intellectual after all.

^Are you implying, sir, that there is no intelligence among the users at BSN?  What an impertinant thing to say.

And, to argue an earlier point, yes, I agree that definitions are paramount to rationalization and catagorization.  However, as new evidence becomes relevant, as technology and information improve, definitions are changed.  They are not static.

It is not unreasonable to assume that the realm of synthetic augmentation has improved so castly by the time of Mass effect that the very definition of "sentience" could be rewritten to include synthetic varieties.

Example, travel back in time 1000 years ago and ask someone to define the word "illness".  I can guarantee you that it held a vastly different meaning back before the discovery of microbes.

Not at all. If I mean something I will say it. It is as I said people didn't offer any evidence as for why they had an opinion on it. Uninformed opinion is worth next to nothing in most cases even one piece of evidence outweighs it. Intelligent people can make bad arguments or offer just opinions but it doesn't mean what they offer is correct.

True yes but my point was that in current definitions without massaging or painful philosophical wrangling you cannot justify they are sentient by the book. If the definition changes then rationally I will agree to call AIs sentient to do otherwise would be offfering my valueless opinion they are not.

[CMDR Locke]

Omnicrat wrote...

CMDR Locke wrote...

TheZyzyva wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

Does anyone posess wisdom or will, or only the illusion via complex, clever programming. At the end of the day the physical form of a human being in the third dimension is a bunch of electrons, neutons and protons. Each considered to be non-sentient. Each considered to have no self-will. So where does entience come from and what is the will behind the atom?  

How many non-sentient things does it take to make a sentient thing while each individual non-sentient remains non-sentient? The things that define sentience are paradoxical if limited only to a physical science. The physical organization of organic matter does not inherently imply sentience to any greater degree than inorganic matter. It's all the same stuff. 

To say humans are sentient be virtue of construction material, while geth are not based on the same criteria is akin to saying a steak is capable of more sentience than a motherboard.

Science!

@CMDR My biggest proplem with your arguments is that you're assuming a lot about the Geth creation but saying it as fact. We don't know how the Geth were first programmed, we don't know what they were programmed to do other than whatever the Quarians told them to do. Yes, they had to be improved for more complex tasks (I think Tali tells us that) but that doesn't mean they had more, specific programs added. Rather more adaptive programs would be much more realistic. Also, why assume they were built for combat also? There's no reason to think that the Quarians were at war with anyone. None of the other races appear to be seperate nation states, and the only ones openly militaristic are the Turians and Batarians.

Now I need to go find the last geth thread I posted in, because I rocked that ****.

Actually we do know what they programmed to do.  The were programmed for simple Labor, and Military applications.  We know they had a neural network to share information, and we know they were intended to have ONE program per platform.

The Neural network allows multiple programs to be housed in the same platform. 

Due to that all Geth Platforms were able to respond with Military reactions to the percieved threat.After all how could they protect if they were all terminated?

Wait, wait, wait.  Who said that?  I don't remember that at all.  That doesn't even make sense.  The programs are supposed to be very rudimentery, but still, if the hardwear was built to only hold one program, no amount of networking could allow the platform to gain capacity for new programs, unless the complexity of programs was greatly reduced.

What would you consider evidence that the Geth are in fact sentient (or as you might be arguing, sapient)?

That's a good question, as to what I would consider proof.  I think maybe individuality.  Say if Legion decided he didnt want to lose any programs or add more to his platform.  An ability to answer emotionally geared questions, such as "Why did you use my armor:   No Data Available seems to indicate current onboard prgrams don't know, which in turn tells me they aren't free thinking but just pulling from Quarian written programming.

To demonstrate it can do something an advanced computer program couldn't do.  Do we know if Geth can recreate more Geth programs WITHOUT just copying a current program?

[CMDR Locke]

marshalleck wrote...

CMDR Locke wrote...

Boiny Bunny wrote...

CMDR Locke wrote...

Jeth Prime wrote...

I'm sick of these threads.... People ignoring every detail about them to say "their just robots" Blah blah blah....

The only arguement that needs to be made is that Geth have not shown if they are sentient, or just simulate sentience through complex program sharing via the neural network.

In the same way that humans 'simulate' sentience through a complex neural network in their brains?

If we are the species defining what sentiece is then it is what we say it is.  The inclusion of other things is then based on our definition.

In the Mass Effect world no species to my knowledge has said Geth are sentient.

No one said EDI was sentient either.  But, in her defense she does displaty more emotion than Legion.  At no point does she respond with "No Data Available."  She calls other crewmembers her shipmates(crewmates)  She describes a platonic friendship and even has one.  Legion the most sophisticated Geth Platform does none of this.

In the Mass Effect world, "artificial intelligence" is a known quantity. They know what processes govern the mind, and how to model those processes with technology to create intelligent machines. They already have it figured out. And most everyone in the galaxy accepts that the geth, EDI, and other AIs are the real deal. In fact, you never see anyone argue to the contrary. 

It's only by modern real world definitions that things get confused, because we don't even have the answers to what makes humans tick, much less currently non-existant intelligent machine races.

That's not true, the first time EDI calls the crew her shipmates, one of Shepards choices is to say she's nothing but a computer program.

[InvincibleHero]

Inutaisho7996 wrote...

If geth don't have emotions, why did Legion fix itself with Shepard's armor? It could have easily fixed itself with something else long before it found Shepard's armor, or, since the armor doesn't really fix the hole, it could have not fixed it at all.

Legion offers no explanation so anything I offer would be a guess. Ask the writer or maybe it will be revealed in ME3. Still irrelevant to the geth all one being according to Legion that consists purely of programs and not the robotic bodies are not sentient by definition.

[InvincibleHero]

marshalleck wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

The distinction between sentience and sapience is especially important in science fiction when discussing the nature of synthetic intelligence, since many people tend to conflate the meaning of the two words. Which actually do have separate meaning.

I agree they are separate terms for good reason. Sapience does not define sentience and vice versa.

The reason I initially mentioned that by the way, is in the last part of your second definition of sentience I thought it began to border on 'acting with wisdom' which would be more the domain of sapience. I think it conducive to discussion to delineate where all the qualifiers are. So if we are merely talking about the question of geth sentience, it should be most productive to talk about their ability to perceive and distinguish between the self and the environment.

They have no concept of self. Legion says they are one which is borne out in that they can combine and separate at will and hop in different robotic bodies. We cannot discard our skin and hop in other bodies or mindmeld into groupthink vastly improving the intelligence and existing as one.

[marshalleck]

InvincibleHero wrote...

They have no concept of self. Legion says they are one which is borne out in that they can combine and separate at will and hop in different robotic bodies. We cannot discard our skin and hop in other bodies or mindmeld into groupthink vastly improving the intelligence and existing as one.

Of course they do. It's absurd to say they do not. If Legion were placed in front of a mirror, are you saying it would not recognize that it's looking at a reflection of itself?

[marshalleck]

CMDR Locke wrote...

That's not true, the first time EDI calls the crew her shipmates, one of Shepards choices is to say she's nothing but a computer program.

Shepard is an avatar of the player, meant to give voice to the player's beliefs. I hardly think that one sentence debunks the entire lore as established through the codex, books, and games.

Modifié par marshalleck, 17 août 2011 - 01:48 .

[InvincibleHero]

mauro2222 wrote...

Our bodies are hardware... our minds are software, is the same for the geth.

That is plain wrong. A human cannot exist separate from the body. It takes a mind and body to make a whole human. A body with a dead mind is a shell with scant sentience. A mind cannot exist without the body at all. If you could somehow keep a brain alive in jar like old horror movies then that brain would not be sentient. The brain might only feel pain and temperature change with no sensory organs of its own.

A geth program can subsist without the robotic body. It can beam through space. It can merge itself with any number of geth programs. They have no individuals. They call them platforms not geth. The geth are the code.

[CMDR Locke]

marshalleck wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...

They have no concept of self. Legion says they are one which is borne out in that they can combine and separate at will and hop in different robotic bodies. We cannot discard our skin and hop in other bodies or mindmeld into groupthink vastly improving the intelligence and existing as one.

Of course they do. It's absurd to say they do not. If Legion were placed in front of a mirror, are you saying it would not recognize that it's looking at a reflection of itself?

Sure it would say "That is a reflection of the mobile platform you have named "Legion"

But no no Geth program or collections of programs could see themselves ina  mirror and identify themself... Well I guess if you allowed the answer "That is Geth"  

[marshalleck]

InvincibleHero wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

Our bodies are hardware... our minds are software, is the same for the geth.

That is plain wrong. A human cannot exist separate from the body. It takes a mind and body to make a whole human. A body with a dead mind is a shell with scant sentience. A mind cannot exist without the body at all. If you could somehow keep a brain alive in jar like old horror movies then that brain would not be sentient. The brain might only feel pain and temperature change with no sensory organs of its own.

A geth program can subsist without the robotic body. It can beam through space. It can merge itself with any number of geth programs. They have no individuals. They call them platforms not geth. The geth are the code.

So you'd agree that applying modern human concepts to futuristic fictional space robots is futile, yes?

[CMDR Locke]

InvincibleHero wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

Our bodies are hardware... our minds are software, is the same for the geth.

That is plain wrong. A human cannot exist separate from the body. It takes a mind and body to make a whole human. A body with a dead mind is a shell with scant sentience. A mind cannot exist without the body at all. If you could somehow keep a brain alive in jar like old horror movies then that brain would not be sentient. The brain might only feel pain and temperature change with no sensory organs of its own.

A geth program can subsist without the robotic body. It can beam through space. It can merge itself with any number of geth programs. They have no individuals. They call them platforms not geth. The geth are the code.

The human brain feels no pain.

[Clayless]

InvincibleHero wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

Our bodies are hardware... our minds are software, is the same for the geth.

That is plain wrong. A human cannot exist separate from the body. It takes a mind and body to make a whole human. A body with a dead mind is a shell with scant sentience. A mind cannot exist without the body at all. If you could somehow keep a brain alive in jar like old horror movies then that brain would not be sentient. The brain might only feel pain and temperature change with no sensory organs of its own.

A geth program can subsist without the robotic body. It can beam through space. It can merge itself with any number of geth programs. They have no individuals. They call them platforms not geth. The geth are the code.

That's because our brains aren't software, they're hardware, which carries the software that makes up us.

If you could upload our software to a computer would we not still be sentinent?