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[marshalleck]

CMDR Locke wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...

They have no concept of self. Legion says they are one which is borne out in that they can combine and separate at will and hop in different robotic bodies. We cannot discard our skin and hop in other bodies or mindmeld into groupthink vastly improving the intelligence and existing as one.

Of course they do. It's absurd to say they do not. If Legion were placed in front of a mirror, are you saying it would not recognize that it's looking at a reflection of itself?

Sure it would say "That is a reflection of the mobile platform you have named "Legion"

Which proves that they are as sentient as anyone else with a mind and consciousness and the ability to perceive themselves as not a part of the environment around them. The fact that they can hop bodies at will is immaterial.

Modifié par marshalleck, 17 août 2011 - 01:53 .

[InvincibleHero]

Sisterofshane wrote...

The Geth lack organic sensory organs.  Sensation is just the nervous system responding to outside stimuli by sending a message to the brain, which in turn processes the information against known variables, and then tells the body how to respond appropriately.  For example, I can put my hand on a hot plate.  The nerves in my hand send signals to my brain, which then decodes it as being "damage" obtained to the body, and I react in pain, pulling my hand away.

The geth can do the exact same thing, just not with organs that are developed by the multiplication and division of organic cells working in concert to acheive a set "task".  Actually, put that way, the human body sounds kind of mechanical.

And tell me, by your logic, if a human brain were to be "preserved" in a fashion, similar to a geth (uploading a consciousness into a computer) would the brain then not retain it's sentience?  Even if it maintained all of it's previous abilities, but just lacked a body with which to "sense"?

And in a sense, everything we know is either programmed within us through genetic "code", or is learned through observation and experience.  How does that make the Geth any less sentient then us?

We will never be able to put our brains into a computer. We are biochemical with electrical impulses. I'd say even so yes would lack sentience because you would not be able to perceive anything without external non-natural non-organic sense organs.

A baby can shut its eyes to birght light or cry to pain and many other things. What can an actual geth do in its natural state? Absolutely nothing, but communicate program to program unaware of anything externally.

[Clayless]

Wrong, you would still be sentient. Yes you need hardware to percieve things, but that hardware can be either synthetic or organic, it makes no difference to sentience.

[Boiny Bunny]

CMDR Locke wrote...

Boiny Bunny wrote...

CMDR Locke wrote...

Jeth Prime wrote...

I'm sick of these threads.... People ignoring every detail about them to say "their just robots" Blah blah blah....

The only arguement that needs to be made is that Geth have not shown if they are sentient, or just simulate sentience through complex program sharing via the neural network.

In the same way that humans 'simulate' sentience through a complex neural network in their brains?

If we are the species defining what sentiece is then it is what we say it is.  The inclusion of other things is then based on our definition.

In the Mass Effect world no species to my knowledge has said Geth are sentient.

No one said EDI was sentient either.  But, in her defense she does displaty more emotion than Legion.  At no point does she respond with "No Data Available."  She calls other crewmembers her shipmates(crewmates)  She describes a platonic friendship and even has one.  Legion the most sophisticated Geth Platform does none of this.

That's not really an argument.  The Master Chief from Halo, and a variety of other 'cold' characters from games and movies do not display any more emotion than Legion.  Are you trying to say Legion is not sentient because it's response to not knowing something is 'No data available' instead of 'I don't know'?

Sentience does not require one to 'bond' with others in any form.

Modifié par Boiny Bunny, 17 août 2011 - 02:24 .

[Omnicrat]

CMDR Locke wrote...

Omnicrat wrote...

CMDR Locke wrote...

TheZyzyva wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

Does anyone posess wisdom or will, or only the illusion via complex, clever programming. At the end of the day the physical form of a human being in the third dimension is a bunch of electrons, neutons and protons. Each considered to be non-sentient. Each considered to have no self-will. So where does entience come from and what is the will behind the atom?  

How many non-sentient things does it take to make a sentient thing while each individual non-sentient remains non-sentient? The things that define sentience are paradoxical if limited only to a physical science. The physical organization of organic matter does not inherently imply sentience to any greater degree than inorganic matter. It's all the same stuff. 

To say humans are sentient be virtue of construction material, while geth are not based on the same criteria is akin to saying a steak is capable of more sentience than a motherboard.

Science!

@CMDR My biggest proplem with your arguments is that you're assuming a lot about the Geth creation but saying it as fact. We don't know how the Geth were first programmed, we don't know what they were programmed to do other than whatever the Quarians told them to do. Yes, they had to be improved for more complex tasks (I think Tali tells us that) but that doesn't mean they had more, specific programs added. Rather more adaptive programs would be much more realistic. Also, why assume they were built for combat also? There's no reason to think that the Quarians were at war with anyone. None of the other races appear to be seperate nation states, and the only ones openly militaristic are the Turians and Batarians.

Now I need to go find the last geth thread I posted in, because I rocked that ****.

Actually we do know what they programmed to do.  The were programmed for simple Labor, and Military applications.  We know they had a neural network to share information, and we know they were intended to have ONE program per platform.

The Neural network allows multiple programs to be housed in the same platform. 

Due to that all Geth Platforms were able to respond with Military reactions to the percieved threat.After all how could they protect if they were all terminated?

Wait, wait, wait.  Who said that?  I don't remember that at all.  That doesn't even make sense.  The programs are supposed to be very rudimentery, but still, if the hardwear was built to only hold one program, no amount of networking could allow the platform to gain capacity for new programs, unless the complexity of programs was greatly reduced.

What would you consider evidence that the Geth are in fact sentient (or as you might be arguing, sapient)?

That's a good question, as to what I would consider proof.  I think maybe individuality.  Say if Legion decided he didnt want to lose any programs or add more to his platform.  An ability to answer emotionally geared questions, such as "Why did you use my armor:   No Data Available seems to indicate current onboard prgrams don't know, which in turn tells me they aren't free thinking but just pulling from Quarian written programming.

To demonstrate it can do something an advanced computer program couldn't do.  Do we know if Geth can recreate more Geth programs WITHOUT just copying a current program?

As I thought.  You have confused sentience with sapience.

By the current defenition, rats qualify for sentience.  Can they do any of those things you consider "proof of sentience"?

No, as to whether or not they are sapient, Legion (having repaired himself with your armor), by your defenition of them acting soley based off of old programs, Legion would have to know why he used your armor, as he chose to use it (two years later, I might add).  As it stands, he either chose not to tell you why or he does not know himself.  No unintelegent program could take an action it didn't know how/why to do.

[Omnicrat]

InvincibleHero wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

Our bodies are hardware... our minds are software, is the same for the geth.

That is plain wrong. A human cannot exist separate from the body. It takes a mind and body to make a whole human. A body with a dead mind is a shell with scant sentience. A mind cannot exist without the body at all. If you could somehow keep a brain alive in jar like old horror movies then that brain would not be sentient. The brain might only feel pain and temperature change with no sensory organs of its own.

A geth program can subsist without the robotic body. It can beam through space. It can merge itself with any number of geth programs. They have no individuals. They call them platforms not geth. The geth are the code.

Wow.  I had no idea you managed to disprove the metaphysics of the soul (ie, mind being able to exist without body)!

Seriously, though.  When the program is not in a platform, it is aware it is not in a platform.  It is aware of the [insert non-platform name here] that it is in.  If this has no cameras or the like, it is the equivilant of a blind man.  Keep removing senses untill your basically left with me/not me, and the geth always have that.

Also, is your argument against geth sentience the fact that they do not consider themselves seperate individuals from other geth?

[SkittlesKat96]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Wrong, you would still be sentient. Yes you need hardware to percieve things, but that hardware can be either synthetic or organic, it makes no difference to sentience.

I agree with this I think...

Human brains are technically programmed to feel empathy and sentience and etc.
I think its just that since organic sentience is more natural we automatically assume that the Geth aren't sentient and are unimportant.

[Omnicrat]

SkittlesKat96 wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Wrong, you would still be sentient. Yes you need hardware to percieve things, but that hardware can be either synthetic or organic, it makes no difference to sentience.

I agree with this I think...

Human brains are technically programmed to feel empathy and sentience and etc.
I think its just that since organic sentience is more natural we automatically assume that the Geth aren't sentient and are unimportant.

I know I never assumed that...

[Whatever42]

We don't even really understand why we ourselves are sapient.

Our brains and thoughts are a jumble. We have incredibly poor memories, with vague recollections cobbled together into fantasy narratives. Our thought processes have very high interference, requiring the brain to use multiple pathways to transmit information but even that means muddled messages.

Since we retain and process information so poorly, our decision making is usually a mess, often heavily influenced by poorly remembered emotional data stored in response to long forgotten stimuli.

We're not even sure if what our self-awareness means. Am I the same person who asking this question a year ago? My brain contains an bio-electrical pattern that forms my mind but when it changes, am I still me?

I'm not sure how we're really qualified to assess the Geth. Again, I think if they pass the test for sentience and say that they are "alive" that we believe them.

[Whatever42]

Except the brain is part of the body. I'm not sure how you could lift the electro-chemical pattern that forms the mind free from the brain. Even if you could, you would have to duplicate so many things from the body to keep "thinking" the same, from emotional responses to low-energy, high-interference brain pathways.

[InkognitoY]

The collective of all the Geth are sentient.

Just because something is not made of 'organic' molecules/atoms such as carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen, does not mean it isn't sentient.

Then again, how to define sentient? Dictionary.com says:

having the power of perception by the senses; conscious.2.characterized by sensation and consciousness.
Having sense perception; conscious.

Considering how the Geth are self aware, I would say that they are sentient beings. 

Modifié par InkognitoY, 17 août 2011 - 03:00 .

[CMDR Locke]

luk4s3d wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...

NO. Defined in Merriam Webster as the following capable of feeling : having perception.

So clearly no on the first part they have no feelings or emotions and do not feel pain or anything of the like. They have no empathy to draw on and probably consider that worthless anyway.

The second part needs perception defined. This is as follows: 1. Awareness of the environment through physical sensation 2. Ability to understand: insight, compreshension. Sensation requires input from sensory organs which are only possessed by plants and animals by definition so that's out. Mechanical sensors are not the same things even if they mimic some of the functions. I think they have a rudimentary ability to understand things but they use pure logic which is sometimes problematic.

So they only tentatively satisfy one of the requirements of sentience. By defintion both traits have to be present to satisfy the definition. They have intelligence as far as their programming and hardware will take them but that is all. They are no living being at all. They are the code not the hardware after all.

That logicis flawed. There are humans who dont meet the criteria! take a pyschopath for example, the lack of empathy, or inabilaty to recognize the suffering of others is what makes a psychpath a psychopath. And they clearly are sentient, as there human. 

Negative, they're human yes.  But being human doesn't get you sentience rights man.

[Logical Escape]

CMDR Locke wrote...

Negative, they're human yes.  But being human doesn't get you sentience rights man.

This is a gross distortion of what sentience is.  The accepted standard for sentience is simply, "are you self-aware?"  And one of the most fundamental tests for self-awareness is the mirror test.  So, I ask, are you suggesting that if Shep were to put a mirror in front of Legion, he won't be able to recognize that he's looking at his reflection?

[Omnicrat]

CMDR Locke wrote...

luk4s3d wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...

NO. Defined in Merriam Webster as the following capable of feeling : having perception.

So clearly no on the first part they have no feelings or emotions and do not feel pain or anything of the like. They have no empathy to draw on and probably consider that worthless anyway.

The second part needs perception defined. This is as follows: 1. Awareness of the environment through physical sensation 2. Ability to understand: insight, compreshension. Sensation requires input from sensory organs which are only possessed by plants and animals by definition so that's out. Mechanical sensors are not the same things even if they mimic some of the functions. I think they have a rudimentary ability to understand things but they use pure logic which is sometimes problematic.

So they only tentatively satisfy one of the requirements of sentience. By defintion both traits have to be present to satisfy the definition. They have intelligence as far as their programming and hardware will take them but that is all. They are no living being at all. They are the code not the hardware after all.

That logicis flawed. There are humans who dont meet the criteria! take a pyschopath for example, the lack of empathy, or inabilaty to recognize the suffering of others is what makes a psychpath a psychopath. And they clearly are sentient, as there human. 

Negative, they're human yes.  But being human doesn't get you sentience rights man.

I am certain you haveconfused sentience with inalianable rights... don't know how, don't know why, don't have the mental fortitued to argue it at this point...

[Agamo45]

Their collective minds would be considered sentient, no indivudual geth is however.

[Omnicrat]

Agamo45 wrote...

Their collective minds would be considered sentient, no indivudual geth is however.

Thats because there are no individual Geth

http://social.biowar...index/5795174/3

[Clayless]

One could say that's akin to brain cells.

[Omnicrat]

Bit better then that, but basically.

[The Twilight God]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

What is the body for? If people can trade organs, can literally be without a heart until they put in the "new" one and shock them, then what is it's purpose? I propose it is to feed the brain, by sourcing blood and oxygen through it. Everything we have, organ wise, is an extension of that. The heart is only needed to pump blood. The lungs are only needed to suck in oxygen and deposit it in the blood, and extract CO2 from the blood and excrete it. Even food is only for giving our body energy to do this process.

So, if you could avoid all this--if you could somehow provide oxygen-rich blood to the brain--the body wouldn't be necessary at all, and you could replace it with machine--everything from artificial eyes to auditory sound to the sensation of touch--connected to the nerves. This is already done on a small scale, with fancy new artificial limbs, and it could be expanded.

So actually...a human can totally exist separate from the body.

The brain regulates the body for the sake of sustaining the brain. The body provides nutrients to the brain ofr the sake of sustaining the body. The brain receives information, interprets s and sends orders. Without this responsiblity the brain has no reason to exist. The body sends information and takes orders. It is a very circular dynamic seeing as the body is necessary for the brain and the brain is necessary for the body. 

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Except the brain is part of the body. I'm not sure how you could lift the electro-chemical pattern that forms the mind free from the brain. Even if you could, you would have to duplicate so many things from the body to keep "thinking" the same, from emotional responses to low-energy, high-interference brain pathways.

Electro chemical patterns don't form the mind. It's just a bunch of atoms with an excess of electrons being passed around. No single molecule is the consciousness*. A segment of the brain that performs one function will perform another if the previous function becomes unattainable (i.e. segment that dealt with sight is later used for hearing and smell after the lose of the eyes). 

None of the brains maintenace actions are on the part of the mind nor the consciousness*. We don't beat our own hearts or digest our own food. The mind, body and consciousness* have a connection, but each is a seperate entity dependent on the others. 

*that which is aware and perceives. (manifesting as the personality, soul or whatever you want to call it)

[Warlocomotf]

Logical Escape wrote...

CMDR Locke wrote...

Negative, they're human yes.  But being human doesn't get you sentience rights man.

This is a gross distortion of what sentience is.  The accepted standard for sentience is simply, "are you self-aware?"  And one of the most fundamental tests for self-awareness is the mirror test.  So, I ask, are you suggesting that if Shep were to put a mirror in front of Legion, he won't be able to recognize that he's looking at his reflection?

The mirror test is a gross over simplification of self awareness :|

Being able to identify "self" is not sentience in and of it self, it'd be very easy to program something to do this. True sentience goes beyond that.

[Omnicrat]

Warlocomotf wrote...

Logical Escape wrote...

CMDR Locke wrote...

Negative, they're human yes.  But being human doesn't get you sentience rights man.

This is a gross distortion of what sentience is.  The accepted standard for sentience is simply, "are you self-aware?"  And one of the most fundamental tests for self-awareness is the mirror test.  So, I ask, are you suggesting that if Shep were to put a mirror in front of Legion, he won't be able to recognize that he's looking at his reflection?

The mirror test is a gross over simplification of self awareness :|

Being able to identify "self" is not sentience in and of it self, it'd be very easy to program something to do this. True sentience goes beyond that.

According to...

Also, you do relize rats qualify for sentience, its not as close to sapience as people make it out to be.

[chester013]

The OP clearly mistakes the human body for something other than a machine, a biological machine but a machine nonetheless.

One was formed through natural processes, the other (initially) by engineers. You need to talk to Legion some more and read your codex to understand how Geth function.

[Warlocomotf]

Omnicrat wrote...

According to...

Also, you do relize rats qualify for sentience, its not as close to sapience as people make it out to be.

I am really not very interested in an argument on semantics 

chester013 wrote...

The OP clearly mistakes the human body for something other than a machine, a biological machine but a machine nonetheless.

One was formed through natural processes, the other (initially) by engineers. You need to talk to Legion some more and read your codex to understand how Geth function.

I agree with the first part of your statement, I disagree with the second part of your statement.

Legion frequently implies that he is not rational. That is wrong, actual AI still consists of transistors that function on the basis of logic. You might argue that our brain also functions on the basis of logical reactions, and you would be correct.

There however is a difference; Geth will base their decisions on logic and a value assessment, while humans are capable of this to some degree- we often base our decisions on what chemicals will be sent to the brain as a result.

A human who smokes for example, does not do this because it is good for him in any way, he does it because it will sate a chemical "need". Over exposure to these chemicals has made them receptors numb, and they now require an ever increasing in-take of this chemical for the receptors to be "happy".

Modifié par Warlocomotf, 17 août 2011 - 07:05 .