200 réponses à ce sujet

[DRSH]

Yes they are.

[Omnicrat]

Warlocomotf wrote...

Omnicrat wrote...

According to...

Also, you do relize rats qualify for sentience, its not as close to sapience as people make it out to be.

I am really not very interested in an argument on semantics [smilie]../../../../images/forum/emoticons/wondering.png[/smilie]

1) That doesn't answer where you are getting your defenition of sentience from.

2) Rats qualifying isn't semantics, nor is sentient being different from sapinet.  Thats not a technicality in the phrasing of the defenition of the word, its the strait up defenition.

[oberst2]

can do barny this down please http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentient

[Warlocomotf]

Omnicrat wrote...

Warlocomotf wrote...

Omnicrat wrote...

According to...

Also, you do relize rats qualify for sentience, its not as close to sapience as people make it out to be.

I am really not very interested in an argument on semantics [smilie]../../../../images/forum/emoticons/wondering.png[/smilie]

1) That doesn't answer where you are getting your defenition of sentience from.

2) Rats qualifying isn't semantics, nor is sentient being different from sapinet.  Thats not a technicality in the phrasing of the defenition of the word, its the strait up defenition.

A rat has a lot more neural links and what not than your computer has transistors. And by a lot, I mean a huge lot more. Bringing rats into this argument as though they would somehow be insignificant is a diversion at best.

The ability to recognize self does not mean you are also aware of self. When a computer processes 1+1, it is not conscious of doing this. In fact, it is not conscious of doing anything. To truely be self aware some level of consciousness- it is the difference between recognizing yourself as "I" and "This one".

When Legion is asked about who he is, he says "I am Geth", his self awareness- if it exists, exists as Geth collective. When asked about the physical body specifically in front of shepard, it no longer refers to itself as "I" but refers to itself as "this mobile platform".

[CMDR Locke]

Warlocomotf wrote...

Omnicrat wrote...

Warlocomotf wrote...

Omnicrat wrote...

According to...

Also, you do relize rats qualify for sentience, its not as close to sapience as people make it out to be.

I am really not very interested in an argument on semantics [smilie]../../../../images/forum/emoticons/wondering.png[/smilie]

1) That doesn't answer where you are getting your defenition of sentience from.

2) Rats qualifying isn't semantics, nor is sentient being different from sapinet.  Thats not a technicality in the phrasing of the defenition of the word, its the strait up defenition.

A rat has a lot more neural links and what not than your computer has transistors. And by a lot, I mean a huge lot more. Bringing rats into this argument as though they would somehow be insignificant is a diversion at best.

The ability to recognize self does not mean you are also aware of self. When a computer processes 1+1, it is not conscious of doing this. In fact, it is not conscious of doing anything. To truely be self aware some level of consciousness- it is the difference between recognizing yourself as "I" and "This one".

When Legion is asked about who he is, he says "I am Geth", his self awareness- if it exists, exists as Geth collective. When asked about the physical body specifically in front of shepard, it no longer refers to itself as "I" but refers to itself as "this mobile platform".

I think a better question than "Are Geth sentient" would be "Is Geth sentient."  I have come to the conclusion that no matter how many seperate programs their are, it's only "one" single entity.  So regardless of how many mobile platforms Geth programming may inhabit at any given time.  There is truly only "One Geth"

Does that make sense?

[InvincibleHero]

Inutaisho7996 wrote...

Your hardware does everything. Without eyes, your brain can't perceive light. Without nerves, your brain can't feel heat.

From  Merrian-Webster.com:Sentient
1 : responsive to or conscious of sense impressions <sentient beings>
2: aware
3: finely sensitive in perception or feeling

Legion clearly fits 1 and 2. If something doesn't fit ALL of its definitions is not as it's defined? If I am "[going] steadily by springing steps so that both feet leave the ground for an instant in each step" but I am not "contend[ing] in a race" am I still running?

A human being is born as one unit. A geth is born as a program. As far as I am aware they do not have robot bodies at genesis. On Legion's loyalty mission it states 16 million copies of geth programming on board the station. Copies. each and every geth is the same. When there is an update from data sharing they all get updated when they connect to the group again.

That hardware/software dicotomy has no real basis for human beings. Code can be separated from hardware and hardware can function without software as was done without computers. Can we change our software at will and add functionality that was never there. NOPE. Can we add new hardware by a simple plug-in? Nope. We can do transplants but that is not the same.Take your eye out and it is non-functional. Can we be shut off and tuirned on to full functionality anytime we wish? No. Not going to argue philosophy since this is based on defintions only.

You made a snap opinion that Legion fits 1 and 2 actually prove it. Define aware and sense impressions by the same source and prove with example how geth fits it. You truly have to disregard the robotic bodies because as Legion says those are platforms not geth. The platforms give them functionality but are not part of the geth.

[Omnicrat]

CMDR Locke wrote...

Warlocomotf wrote...

Omnicrat wrote...

Warlocomotf wrote...

Omnicrat wrote...

According to...

Also, you do relize rats qualify for sentience, its not as close to sapience as people make it out to be.

I am really not very interested in an argument on semantics [smilie]../../../../images/forum/emoticons/wondering.png[/smilie]

1) That doesn't answer where you are getting your defenition of sentience from.

2) Rats qualifying isn't semantics, nor is sentient being different from sapinet.  Thats not a technicality in the phrasing of the defenition of the word, its the strait up defenition.

A rat has a lot more neural links and what not than your computer has transistors. And by a lot, I mean a huge lot more. Bringing rats into this argument as though they would somehow be insignificant is a diversion at best.

The ability to recognize self does not mean you are also aware of self. When a computer processes 1+1, it is not conscious of doing this. In fact, it is not conscious of doing anything. To truely be self aware some level of consciousness- it is the difference between recognizing yourself as "I" and "This one".

When Legion is asked about who he is, he says "I am Geth", his self awareness- if it exists, exists as Geth collective. When asked about the physical body specifically in front of shepard, it no longer refers to itself as "I" but refers to itself as "this mobile platform".

I think a better question than "Are Geth sentient" would be "Is Geth sentient."  I have come to the conclusion that no matter how many seperate programs their are, it's only "one" single entity.  So regardless of how many mobile platforms Geth programming may inhabit at any given time.  There is truly only "One Geth"

Does that make sense?

Yes.  i had the same idea and even mentioned it on here.  There is one Geth, and there is one Heretic.

[InvincibleHero]

Arppis wrote...

I'm glad people will find a way to be able justify their genocidal needs...

But hey, sensors do count, because they work exactly the same way as ears and eyes. Plus the Geth wouldn't fire at you or try to speak with you if they didn't know you are there. So you are wrong.

Who said anything about killing them?  Leave your bias at the door please.

No the definition states organs possessed by plants and animals. Geth do not possess even that in the platforms which is truly not their body anyway. They are the programs only.

Is the roomba sentient? It has a camera and can move around and vacuum your floor. It is aware of things in its limited fashion and has sight the way geth do?

[Omnicrat]

Also, my point is that, as far a we know, the rat only knows its physically exists and what its physical form is. And yes, a rat has a better network in its brain then in my computer, but I'm not calling my computer sentient. My point is that the Geth (they never say it because they don't need to) most likely have a more complex network then a single rats brain, so it should be at least sentient.

I am not sure if it was you who I asked, but what would make them sentinet in your mind?

Viewing separate platforms as separate individuals shouldn't be it because the Geth one mind, created by millions of programs. Individual platforms are no more separate people then an arm and a leg on the same body are.

Reproduction is required for life, not knowing you exist. Being alive is nowhere in the detention of sentience if I recall.

[InvincibleHero]

ilquaruxa wrote...

I've studied a lot of the philosophy of mind and phenomenology, so I'm getting a kick out of these replies. One won't get very far by citing dictionary definitions or by implying strict physicalism. This thread is hardly the tip of the philosophical iceberg. Please consult the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy for a reliable source for all your philsophical needs. It's really very good.

There is your problem relying on philosophy. If you asked 10 philosophy professors the same question you'd get 10 different answers. It has little standardization at all.

[Omnicrat]

InvincibleHero wrote...

Arppis wrote...

I'm glad people will find a way to be able justify their genocidal needs...

But hey, sensors do count, because they work exactly the same way as ears and eyes. Plus the Geth wouldn't fire at you or try to speak with you if they didn't know you are there. So you are wrong.

Who said anything about killing them?  Leave your bias at the door please.

No the definition states organs possessed by plants and animals. Geth do not possess even that in the platforms which is truly not their body anyway. They are the programs only.

Is the roomba sentient? It has a camera and can move around and vacuum your floor. It is aware of things in its limited fashion and has sight the way geth do?

That is an out-dated defenition, even by modern standards.  We currently have technology that can mimic senses for the purposes of implants and prostetics.  If you are accurate in that being the current defenition, then the defenition should change.

[Omnicrat]

InvincibleHero wrote...

ilquaruxa wrote...

I've studied a lot of the philosophy of mind and phenomenology, so I'm getting a kick out of these replies. One won't get very far by citing dictionary definitions or by implying strict physicalism. This thread is hardly the tip of the philosophical iceberg. Please consult the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy for a reliable source for all your philsophical needs. It's really very good.

There is your problem relying on philosophy. If you asked 10 philosophy professors the same question you'd get 10 different answers. It has little standardization at all.

You know nothing of philosophy.  Do not speak on that which you do not know.

[InvincibleHero]

didymos1120 wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...
 Is it his sensors tell him he may become inoperative due to environmental factors or is he actually screaming and you can prove he truly feels pain internally? 

Can you prove that anyone other than you truly feels pain internally?  Can you prove that you do to anyone not you?

Yes there are sensors that would record the physiological response of the human body. You can fake not hurting, but would be lying. If I stabbed you you'd feel pain unless something was drastically abnormal about you. In discussion it would be common traits of the whole human subset. We differ but geth don't. They are copies of the same program.

By internally I meant the program that is the geth. So no unlikely to feel pain. I can't prove that with 100% certainty but Legion does not yell out with half his chest removed either. I never heard any cries of pain from any geth exterminated in ME or ME2. So I think that part was pure invention by whomever made that sequence.

[Omnicrat]

InvincibleHero wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...
 Is it his sensors tell him he may become inoperative due to environmental factors or is he actually screaming and you can prove he truly feels pain internally? 

Can you prove that anyone other than you truly feels pain internally?  Can you prove that you do to anyone not you?

Yes there are sensors that would record the physiological response of the human body. You can fake not hurting, but would be lying. If I stabbed you you'd feel pain unless something was drastically abnormal about you. In discussion it would be common traits of the whole human subset. We differ but geth don't. They are copies of the same program.

By internally I meant the program that is the geth. So no unlikely to feel pain. I can't prove that with 100% certainty but Legion does not yell out with half his chest removed either. I never heard any cries of pain from any geth exterminated in ME or ME2. So I think that part was pure invention by whomever made that sequence.

I think this might be a big part of the problem.  There is only one geth.  alot of non-sentient VI programs  (like brain-cells) networked (like a brain) to create one Geth.


edit: pain is unsessisary for them.  they still sense with the scaners of the platform they are in as you sense with the organs of the platform you are in.

Modifié par Omnicrat, 17 août 2011 - 09:23 .

[InvincibleHero]

Sisterofshane wrote...

You're not concerned about whether Legion can perceive "damage" as you are to whether he can ascribe a negative feeling to it.  He does not, because his species' evolution did not appropriate an emotional or physical reaction to the act of "damage".

Seemingly irrational emotions such as fear and reactions to pain are a result of millenia of conditioning, and the evolution of a single cell organism into one that is multicellular. I call it "programming" our cells and our brains to respond to certain stimuli in a certain manner. 

Pain is a great example.  Somewhere along the evolutionary line, the bodies' cells needed a way to tell the brain to avoid damage.  They do this through conditioning - when a cell is damaged, it becomes inflamed, and the brain signals the body to recoil physically to essentially stop the damage from progressing, or to warn the brain that damage is taking place.  Burning your hand on a hot plate, for example.  This scenario has now become coded into your memory -- the next time someone hands you a plate, you will be more cautious as to how you handle said plate.  Physical and emotional responses, designed to "protect" the body, and working in concert.  This is done because as organics, our body is irreplaceable, and takes time to repair any damage, if it can repair it at all.

Legion doesn't have that problem.  He doesn't need "pain" to assess a current state of damage, and doesn't need to worry about a natural healing process.  That doesn't make him incapable of percieving and reacting to damage to his "platform", he just does it in a different way.

And yes, some knowledge is "programmed" into him, but how is this any different then teaching a child not to stand in the middle of the road?  It is not knowledge he is born forthwith, but is still needed for him to have a chance at survival.

What evolution would that be? Once enough programs accreted they got enough intelligence to get a rudimentary understanding of data they came across. They continue to add to the data and have not changed in anay way except the heretics which is explained as one small change in the code.

I disagree there is no thing such as programmed responses in humans. I can walk up and stick my hand in the fire if I want to knowing I will be severely hurt. A geth would not purposely harm itself in any fashion. In fact I argue a geth cannot oppose consesne. Look how long Legion took on the rewrite decision even saying they come to quick decisions because they think at light speed. Took a good half hour to come with you fought heretics your call shepard. If 999 out of 1000 geth programs said do this then they will not do the 1 out of 1000. I would try to save my child if I had one even with low odds. We can do things counter-intuitive and geth cannot. Sometimes the long shot is the better idea. Lacking an exact answer reneders geth helpless note searching extranet in Legion's speech when he doesn't know something. We can guess based on experience while they have to follow the flow chart and reach consensus based on the info they can get.

[commandoclone87]

Can Geth think? Are they able to perceive their environment? Can they change their judgements and thinking habits based on different situations? As Geth can think in abstract terms (they've evolved their technology... a sign of intelligence) and even have religion. All signs of an intelligent and sentient species, even if they are synthetic. The question should is "Do Geth have a Soul?"

Modifié par commandoclone87, 17 août 2011 - 09:30 .

[InvincibleHero]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

Here's what I found on the Merrian-Webster site:

Definition of SENTIENT
1: responsive to or conscious of sense impressions <sentient beings>
2: aware
3: finely sensitive in perception or feeling

Examples of SENTIENT
<sentient of the danger posed by the approaching hurricane>
Origin of SENTIENT
Latin sentient-, sentiens, present participle of sentire to perceive, feel
First Known Use: 1632


I think item #2 under the definition is relevant: to be aware. The Geth ar capable of intelligent thought, they receive sensory input, and they react to that input and make decisions. They're very much aware of what's going on. They are totally sentient. Feeling pain as humans feel human is irrelevant to me. Someone who loses a limb and has a prosthetic replacement with which they cannot detect sensation isn't less sentient because they're unable to feel pain in their fake arm/hand/leg/whatever.

All that should really matter is whether or not what passes for the brain in an organic or non-organic being is capable of rational thought and perceiving and making sense of its surroundings, etc.

On Heretic station Legion had this to say about the geth seververs storing actual geth. "No more aware of us than you are of cells in your bloodstream." What that meant is they had no awareness we were even on the station. A geth has no awareness at all until they plug into a robotic body which is not inherent to geth at all. They exist without it and are not created with it. You cannot consider that part of geth at all.

[InvincibleHero]

TobyHasEyes wrote...

What is difficult in that description is being 'conscious of sense impressions', which is sufficiently difficult because we do not know enough about the brain to understand how it can produce conscious awareness and subjective experience (hence some believing it to be an illusion), and by that I would contend that we can not know if they are sentient or not at the moment

Hence my argument based on the moral consequences of reaching each conclusion;

If you treat them as sentient, at best you are acknowledging their status and treating them accordingly, at worst you are wasting moral effort on an unconscious machine

If you treat them as non-sentient, at best you aren't wasting moral effort on an unconscious machine, at worst you are being truly oppressive and torturous to a sentient being

For me, the choice of which is the bigger risk is clear

I can see where you are coming from. However, based on the defintions given I can easily say no based on info the game has provided thus far. Me3 may reveal more about the geth that may cause a revision of my stance but as of now I stand on not sentient. 

[Omnicrat]

InvincibleHero wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

You're not concerned about whether Legion can perceive "damage" as you are to whether he can ascribe a negative feeling to it.  He does not, because his species' evolution did not appropriate an emotional or physical reaction to the act of "damage".

Seemingly irrational emotions such as fear and reactions to pain are a result of millenia of conditioning, and the evolution of a single cell organism into one that is multicellular. I call it "programming" our cells and our brains to respond to certain stimuli in a certain manner. 

Pain is a great example.  Somewhere along the evolutionary line, the bodies' cells needed a way to tell the brain to avoid damage.  They do this through conditioning - when a cell is damaged, it becomes inflamed, and the brain signals the body to recoil physically to essentially stop the damage from progressing, or to warn the brain that damage is taking place.  Burning your hand on a hot plate, for example.  This scenario has now become coded into your memory -- the next time someone hands you a plate, you will be more cautious as to how you handle said plate.  Physical and emotional responses, designed to "protect" the body, and working in concert.  This is done because as organics, our body is irreplaceable, and takes time to repair any damage, if it can repair it at all.

Legion doesn't have that problem.  He doesn't need "pain" to assess a current state of damage, and doesn't need to worry about a natural healing process.  That doesn't make him incapable of percieving and reacting to damage to his "platform", he just does it in a different way.

And yes, some knowledge is "programmed" into him, but how is this any different then teaching a child not to stand in the middle of the road?  It is not knowledge he is born forthwith, but is still needed for him to have a chance at survival.

What evolution would that be? Once enough programs accreted they got enough intelligence to get a rudimentary understanding of data they came across. They continue to add to the data and have not changed in anay way except the heretics which is explained as one small change in the code.

I disagree there is no thing such as programmed responses in humans. I can walk up and stick my hand in the fire if I want to knowing I will be severely hurt. A geth would not purposely harm itself in any fashion. In fact I argue a geth cannot oppose consesne. Look how long Legion took on the rewrite decision even saying they come to quick decisions because they think at light speed. Took a good half hour to come with you fought heretics your call shepard. If 999 out of 1000 geth programs said do this then they will not do the 1 out of 1000. I would try to save my child if I had one even with low odds. We can do things counter-intuitive and geth cannot. Sometimes the long shot is the better idea. Lacking an exact answer reneders geth helpless note searching extranet in Legion's speech when he doesn't know something. We can guess based on experience while they have to follow the flow chart and reach consensus based on the info they can get.

1) the change in code was a reaper-virus given to the heretics to convert the geth after they chose to convert.  replay that part if you don't believe me.

2) You are wrong.  People have programed responses.  We also have will that, in some cases, can over-ride the programing.  For example, how long can you keep your hand in that fire before the program makes you pull it out?

3) Other then the legitamet example of Geth not being able to decide if re-write is better then destruction (which makes sense if you take into accout the fact that they kept getting new information about the heretics throughout the mission), where is your evidence for the geth acting in the way you describe?  In fact, doesn't the fact that they have quick responses in combat contradict your theory?  Also, look up decision making by consensus.  It is not everyone agreeing.

[Omnicrat]

InvincibleHero wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

Here's what I found on the Merrian-Webster site:

Definition of SENTIENT
1: responsive to or conscious of sense impressions <sentient beings>
2: aware
3: finely sensitive in perception or feeling

Examples of SENTIENT
<sentient of the danger posed by the approaching hurricane>
Origin of SENTIENT
Latin sentient-, sentiens, present participle of sentire to perceive, feel
First Known Use: 1632


I think item #2 under the definition is relevant: to be aware. The Geth ar capable of intelligent thought, they receive sensory input, and they react to that input and make decisions. They're very much aware of what's going on. They are totally sentient. Feeling pain as humans feel human is irrelevant to me. Someone who loses a limb and has a prosthetic replacement with which they cannot detect sensation isn't less sentient because they're unable to feel pain in their fake arm/hand/leg/whatever.

All that should really matter is whether or not what passes for the brain in an organic or non-organic being is capable of rational thought and perceiving and making sense of its surroundings, etc.

On Heretic station Legion had this to say about the geth seververs storing actual geth. "No more aware of us than you are of cells in your bloodstream." What that meant is they had no awareness we were even on the station. A geth has no awareness at all until they plug into a robotic body which is not inherent to geth at all. They exist without it and are not created with it. You cannot consider that part of geth at all.

When knocked unconsious, do you have awareness? 

[InvincibleHero]

jtrook wrote...

The geth do have a semblance of sentience. In the codex(along with everything else) The geth initially started asking questions about their existence and purpose. The quarians see this as a threat and decided to destroy them. The geth defended themselves in an act of self preservation. The first sign of them being sentient comes from them showing awareness and curiosity about the world around them and themselves and showing ascension beyond basic instincts (programming). The self-defense in a sense, is them defying their own programming. So my finally word is yes. They have achieved sentient status.

So google interpreting info and asking you did you mean this makes google sentient. Nope respose to data is not sentience. First they had to given the defintion of soul by the quarians since they could not make it up on their own. They had to be some type of AI to begin with beign able to complie and learn and respond to quarians in a fashion.

Self-preservation why? Geth have no emotions and would not fear being shut off. In fact, they likely got powered down many mnay times in their existence in various platforms. Quarians could not extinct the geth unless they simultaneously shut down every platform on the planet and scrubbed them. They were never in any danger of being wiped out. How do we know what they were programmed for to say they went against it?

[InvincibleHero]

CrookedAsylum wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...
 Is it his sensors tell him he may become inoperative due to environmental factors or is he actually screaming and you can prove he truly feels pain internally? 

-insert obligatory arguement about people with CIPA here-

\\Pain response is only one small part. They still qualify by seeing and hearing or touching something. Anyway that wasn't part of the OP but asking a question of someone that claimed Legion feels pain.

[Omnicrat]

InvincibleHero wrote...

jtrook wrote...

The geth do have a semblance of sentience. In the codex(along with everything else) The geth initially started asking questions about their existence and purpose. The quarians see this as a threat and decided to destroy them. The geth defended themselves in an act of self preservation. The first sign of them being sentient comes from them showing awareness and curiosity about the world around them and themselves and showing ascension beyond basic instincts (programming). The self-defense in a sense, is them defying their own programming. So my finally word is yes. They have achieved sentient status.

So google interpreting info and asking you did you mean this makes google sentient. Nope respose to data is not sentience. First they had to given the defintion of soul by the quarians since they could not make it up on their own. They had to be some type of AI to begin with beign able to complie and learn and respond to quarians in a fashion.

Self-preservation why? Geth have no emotions and would not fear being shut off. In fact, they likely got powered down many mnay times in their existence in various platforms. Quarians could not extinct the geth unless they simultaneously shut down every platform on the planet and scrubbed them. They were never in any danger of being wiped out. How do we know what they were programmed for to say they went against it?

1) But google created a program for those questions, and the words a produced as a result of an explicit program.  Unless the Quarians are the dumbest race in the galaxy, the geth have no such program for questions about wheather or not they have a soul.

2a) ... you described exactly what the Quarians were trying to do.

2b) Idu your last question.  I'll give you the benifit of the doubt that it makes sense.

[InvincibleHero]

Garrus.Vakarian wrote...

oh great a geth hater. probably a taliban.

How on earth did you draw that conclusion? I think Legion is interesting and I use it on missions. I have not killed off legion in any playthrough and I rewrite the geth more often than destroy them.

[InvincibleHero]

IEatWhatIPoo wrote...

"Sorry Legion, my dictionary says you're not sentient."

"But.. we are."

"Nope, sorry.

If I recall Legion said sapient once or twice and not sentient.