27 réponses à ce sujet

[ModicaSolis]

(I apologize for making so many threads, I just have a lot of questions)

 After I beat the game the first time, the character I decided to make next was originally going to be a S&S Warrior. In DA:O, my S&S Warrior (the baddest ***** in Thedas) was a shield-wielding, hate-keeping, hit-taking juggernaut of destruction. I loved it. I've always enjoyed playing tanks in RPGs, MMOs, etc.

So when I sat down to make a S&S Warrior in DA2, I was very displeased for one big reason: The animation was terrible! And the mobility was awful! I quit the S&S Warrior right away, tired of simply jabbing my foes and missing out on the dash action that 2H Warriors got.

Yep, I didn't know that was all Shield Defense. So now, concurrent with my Mage playthrough (which is hilariously fun), I'm returning to my favorite class setup. But I find the build guides and information on S&S Warriors lacking in comparison to just about everything else. It feels like a very different beast from the 2H setups, too.

So far, most of the builds I'm trying to get to work end up taking a LOT of talent points, which leads me to believe that I'm doing it wrong. I've been trying to take all of the S&S tree except Shield Wall (only need that for Assassins) and Pummel (Rogue in party are on CCC duty with disorients). Then, I also tried the Cleave/Massacre business in the build. Added Taunt. And then I also started thinking about the Stamina issue and how I'd probably also need Bolster and Second Wind, or at least Rally/Upgraded Rally.

If you go by just those alone, you're already looking at 19 talent points. No specializations even enter the picture yet. So where can I trim the fat here?

[Apathy1989]

I suggest ignoring most the SnS tree. Just use shield bash and assault. Pump the rest of your points into other trees, like stonewall to combat assassins, vanguard to improve damage and a pair of specialisations of your choice.

Personally I prefer Templar/Reaver, but I end up ignoring the templar tree on nightmare since so many abilities FF.

[ModicaSolis]

It bears mentioning that I'll most likely be playing on Hard. In terms of specializations, I wasn't sure what I was going to pick. Reaver seems like an obvious choice. Templar would take care of my largest source of frustration - Mages - but the specialization looks kind of weak on paper, so to speak.

As far as the SnS tree and ignoring it, I would think that ignoring Crit and Flanking immunity would be a huge loss in terms of survivability. Does it not play out that way?

[Aradace]

ModicaSolis wrote...

It bears mentioning that I'll most likely be playing on Hard. In terms of specializations, I wasn't sure what I was going to pick. Reaver seems like an obvious choice. Templar would take care of my largest source of frustration - Mages - but the specialization looks kind of weak on paper, so to speak.

As far as the SnS tree and ignoring it, I would think that ignoring Crit and Flanking immunity would be a huge loss in terms of survivability. Does it not play out that way?

Seems to me if you take Stonewall, those passives you get in S&S tree are moot.  Not to mention there are rings and other things in game that can give you the exact same effect as those passive would.

[andraip]

This thread has plenty of links to guides in the OP, it's stickied and in the same forum where you posted... just scroll down to warrior guides and see if there is something you like.

[ModicaSolis]

I've read all of those. The Berserker/Vanguard one is focused entirely on 2H and some things don't translate over. The second Zerk/Vanguard is what I've been using as a kind of jumping off point. A lot of the build as to be changed for the SnS use and the CCCs those bring up, plus it doesn't really offer much in the way of what SnS talents are actually useful, what synergizes well, etc. The Templar builds, well, that goes back to my wondering about the efficacy of the Templar specialization in general.

However! The elemental build is something I find very interesting, although from what I can see in the videos that are posted, I don't understand how he's equipping armor that he doesn't meet the stat requirements for. Unless that's some PC modding thing, in which case that makes the elemental setup not nearly as viable for me on the console version.

[andraip]

@ModicaSolis

You can actually use the 2H guides for S&S, the dps is the same, and S&S has some amazing disorient CCCs.
Templar is a good spec. And if you use Edge of Night + % spirit damage gear your Holy Smite will do some damage, actualy Reaver + Tempar is pretty good.
IN1 is prebuffing to reach the stats, e.g. you need 25 magic to wear certain robe, you only have 20, so you using some gloves that give you +2 MAG and some boots that give you +1 MAG and some other Robes that give you +2 MAG, so you will have 25 MAG and be able to equp the robe, once you have equipped it you replace the gloves and boots with items of your liking.

EDIT:

Quoted from AreleX's Berserker/Vanguard guide...

Hawke - Sword & Shield

Level 1: Maker's Sigh (remove Pommel Strike), Save talent point
Level 2: Save talent point
Level 3: Shield Defense, Might, Control
Level 4: Perception
Level 5: Taunt
Level 6: Cleave
Level 7: Berserker Specialization, Destroyer
Level 8: Berserk
Level 9: Barrage
Level 10: Claymore, Adrenaline (Bonus from Act 1 Tome)
Level 11: Endless Berserk
Level 12: Unrelenting Barrage
Level 13: Savage Berserk
Level 14: Reaver Specialization, Blood Frenzy
Level 15: Death Blow, Massacre (Bonus from Act 2 Tome)
Level 16: Devour
Level 17: Sacrificial Frenzy
Level 18: Aura of Pain, Fervor (Bonus from Black Emporium Tome)
Level 19: Bolster
Level 20: Second Wind
Level 21: Deep Breath
Level 22: Last Push
Level 23: Deep Reserves

EDIT2

Quoted from Arelex guide, this is for console patch 1.02...

Hawke - Sword & Shield

Level 1: Shield Bash
Level 2: Shield Defense
Level 3: Might
Level 4: Control
Level 5: Assault
Level 6: Cleave
Level 7: Berserker Specialization, Destroyer, Elemental Aegis (Tome of Physical Technique)
Level 8: Scatter
Level 9: Berserk
Level 10: Claymore, Barrage (Elixir of Technique)
Level 11: Adrenaline
Level 12: Endless Berserk
Level 13: Unrelenting Barrage
Level 14: Reaver Specialization, Savage Berserk
Level 15: Battery, Massacre  (Tome of Technique)
Level 16: Disperse
Level 17: Blood Frenzy
Level 18: Aura of Pain
Level 19: Sacrificial Frenzy (Elixir of Heroism)
Level 20: Fervor
Level 21: Death Blow
Level 22: Bolster
Level 23: Rally
Level 24: Second Wind
Level 25: Deep Breath
Level 26: Last Push

As you can see, his guide is not 2H only

Modifié par andraip, 16 août 2011 - 12:10 .

[swk3000]

I've got another issue: those are designed around specific ideas, and deviation means we're up a creek without a map. For example, I would love to run an SnS Warrior with Templar as the main spec to see how it operates, but I have no idea what in the Templar tree is actually worth taking, or how to maximize effectiveness. So I end up getting bored and thinking I'm screwing myself over, which causes me to scrap the character and go back to my Two-Handed Vanguard. And I know there are threads linked in the sticky, but the ones for the Templar are either not a guide, or they are, but they use the Berserker spec that I just can't get into. Because I'm not looking at exactly the same way of play as they use, the guides are all but useless to me.

Guides are all well and good, but only if you're looking at running things exactly the way the author intended. Try to introduce any variation, and the entire mess dissolves into quicksand, with you right in the middle of it.

Sink or Swim?

[SuicidalBaby]

TURN OFF SHIELD DEFENSE

That is all.

Modifié par SuicidialBaby, 16 août 2011 - 02:42 .

[andraip]

@swk3000

You don't have to follow those guides strickly, however you should understand them first before you adapt them to your need, or else you may fail.

As for the templer spec:
Holy Smite is great, nice AoE with good damage, the Staggering Smite upgrade is worth taking I guess, rigtheous smite is different, since holy Smite deals Spirit damage, and a lot of the Fade creatures and Mages are spirit immune (at least on nightmare, on other difficulties they have 50% ressistence I guess) you won't use it much against them (on nightmare).
Cleanse id good for removing the buffs of a commander, and you need it for silence.
Silence, a really cool talent, it will silence the target for 20 seconds, use it on enemies which have nasty talents (blood mages, assassins, and so).
Annulmeant, is always nice to have +50% magic res.

It should be viable to play as a Reaver + Templar, and the above templar talents are good.

P.S. if you use Varric + Anders + Merril in your team (using AreleX's companion build + tactics) then your Hawke doesn't need to fight at all.

[mr_afk]

the general strategies should port across in most cases as those 'specific ideas' you speak of aren't really that specific.

almost all warrior dps builds will have certain core similarities (with the main differences stemming from specs) and tank builds will be tank builds (I don't play them so I don't know how different they can be).

generally speaking the weapon tree, vanguard tree and the specs are useful for dps. the warmonger tree is good for bravery and/or pommel strike (which are used in more specialised setups), the battle master is good for buffing allies + stamina regen, and the defender tree is good for tanking abilities.
any combination of specs will work with the weapon tree and vanguard tree to provide dps. the only difference is that berserkers have to pump willpower instead of just strength.

depending on your weapon tree your companions may focus more on disorient setups, but in either case the ideal party setups are pretty much the same.

Two Mages (Anders, Bethany, or Merrill): Provide haste, heroic aura. Brittle setups, disorient CCCs (spirit bolt, stone fist) and stagger CCCs (chain lightning, crushing prison)

One Rogue (Varric or Sebastian): Provide brand. Disorient setups (pinning shot, fatiguing fog) and brittle CCCs (archer's lance). Also may provide threat management.

In other words,
Hawke will provide staggers allowing mages to let off their CCCs.
Rogues will provide disorients allowing S&S hawke and mages to CCC.
Mages will provide brittles which allow archer companions (and 2H hawke) to CCC.

The general idea here is that all the threat is focused on hawke while the mages and rogues sit back safely and let off unopposed damage and CCC setups. Any hawke can pull this role off but only several builds can actually deal enough dps to make hawke the scariest thing out there. And that's where guides come in.

I mean, who really wants to be the bystander getting hated on when you could be the guy smashing their faces in (and getting hated on for good reason)?
However, the OP seems to want to a tank build, and I can't be bothered creating a tank build. They're just too un-optimal for me to handle.

All I'll recommend is getting a fatiguing fog disorient setup working. This allows S&S warriors to do assault and scatter CCCs on an entire group of enemies, probably the two highest damage warrior abilities.

[Sabotin]

SuicidialBaby wrote...

TURN OFF SHIELD DEFENSE

That is all.

Do what he sais.

Having the Shield Defense toggle on is causing the stabby animations and disables the closing attacks. Turn it off and you'll go back to being the slashy dashy meat slicer.

[ModicaSolis]

mr_afk wrote...

I mean, who really wants to be the bystander getting hated on when you could be the guy smashing their faces in (and getting hated on for good reason)?
However, the OP seems to want to a tank build, and I can't be bothered creating a tank build. They're just too un-optimal for me to handle.

I'm not necessarily looking to build a tank. I just want a durable S&S character who can take the hits while he's dishing them out and running the battlefield.

I will take your advice though and read the builds over again, closely, to see what would transfer over from 2H to S&S

[Apathy1989]

ModicaSolis wrote...

It bears mentioning that I'll most likely be playing on Hard. In terms of specializations, I wasn't sure what I was going to pick. Reaver seems like an obvious choice. Templar would take care of my largest source of frustration - Mages - but the specialization looks kind of weak on paper, so to speak.

As far as the SnS tree and ignoring it, I would think that ignoring Crit and Flanking immunity would be a huge loss in terms of survivability. Does it not play out that way?

Something like this: http://biowarefans.c...nyxaVSPrYm0HJte

On hard difficulty and below the templar spec is pretty nice. Without friendly fire, you have easy use of cleansing purge to remove buffs and hostile effects, and decent Holy Smite to deal AoE damage. 

However as you are a SnS instead of a 2H, you don't have the higher possible damage or area effect (imo), so your duty is to setup and control for your team. So staggering, knockbacks, soaking up damage and shutting down elites. 

I usually had anders setup to crushing prison any staggered elites I chose, then merrill using chain lightning for when shield bash was used to stagger groups. Assault can be used against disorientation, but I prefer using mages with spirit bolt.

Silence is great for disabiling abilities on all enemies. If I recall correctly, assassins disappearing act is disabled with silence. 

I stay away from annulment since magic resistence counteracts haste, and from righteous strike since it , while occasionally useful, is unreliable unless accompanied by plenty of attack speed buffs.

SnS skills that give critical hit (and flanking strikes) immunity can be got through equipment. I am unsure if this equipment is only avaliable through DLC items or not, but I tend to use it asap.

Modifié par Apathy1989, 16 août 2011 - 08:49 .

[ModicaSolis]

Ooh, that looks like it could be a lot of fun.

Just looking at that build, the only question I have is how I'd keep threat on my enemies without Taunt and whatnot. I assume it'd be a matter of well placed Shield Bash, Assault, and liberal use of Holy Smite. That, on top of Varric or Sebastian using the threat manipulation abilities would probably be enough...

The one thing I really want that this build wouldn't permit is Fervor out of the Reaver tree. But I guess I don't really NEED it, especially with Haste and the Primeval Rune later on.

[swk3000]

Keep in mind that the builder linked doesn't take into account Tomes, so you'll actually have more points to work with. Tomes alone will give you 2 of the 3 points needed to get towards Fervor, and there's a potion in the Black Emporium that will give you the last one.

[AreleX]

swk3000 wrote...

I've got another issue: those are designed around specific ideas, and deviation means we're up a creek without a map. For example, I would love to run an SnS Warrior with Templar as the main spec to see how it operates, but I have no idea what in the Templar tree is actually worth taking, or how to maximize effectiveness. So I end up getting bored and thinking I'm screwing myself over, which causes me to scrap the character and go back to my Two-Handed Vanguard. And I know there are threads linked in the sticky, but the ones for the Templar are either not a guide, or they are, but they use the Berserker spec that I just can't get into. Because I'm not looking at exactly the same way of play as they use, the guides are all but useless to me.

Guides are all well and good, but only if you're looking at running things exactly the way the author intended. Try to introduce any variation, and the entire mess dissolves into quicksand, with you right in the middle of it.

Sink or Swim?

if you take the guides at face value, of course you won't learn anything. if you read and use them as they are meant to be taken in, you learn about what goes into making a good build, building your companions well, and being successful.

[AreleX]

also, to answer your question, templar got shafted in the patch. while there isn't anything inherently wrong with it, it got no buffs, and can't keep up with the boosts to berserk.

reaver got nerfed hard, and it's still better than templar.

[Mocker22]

Maybe this will help. Let me list out what I would consider the absolute MUST HAVE abilities for a S&S warrior. First! pick your 2 specializations, You will spend maybe 5-7 points in each of them.

Shield Bash + upgrade - this is your stagger on a stick, love it!
Assault + Scatter, both upgraded - this is your DPS. Have a rogue setup disorients.
Do not take the immunity passives or upgrade shield defense!
Vanguard you want for Cleave, and I upgrade it eventually.
Taunt is an amazing 1 point invesment.
If you play on Nightmare take Elemental Aegis, awesome 1 point investment.
If you do not take Vanguard you'll probably be needing Second Wind.

Whether you 1h or 2h warriors arn't very complicated. The general idea is to use abilities to create huge burst damage, and as always, CCCs!

Remember that Elemental weapons are vastly better. for 1h this means Edge of Night(spirirt), Sataareth(Fire), or Glandivalis(Elec). All of them are good and on nightmare I keep all 3 on my char. I like Fire dmg more then most people simply because even a warrior could probably hit +100% Fire dmg easily.

The best gear will be the stuff that has huge bonuses to your elemental dmg type.
 
P.S Gamebanshee.com has a great advanced item search. You can search by dmg type bonus, etc.

Modifié par Brock22, 16 août 2011 - 11:42 .

[Apathy1989]

ModicaSolis wrote...

Ooh, that looks like it could be a lot of fun.

Just looking at that build, the only question I have is how I'd keep threat on my enemies without Taunt and whatnot. I assume it'd be a matter of well placed Shield Bash, Assault, and liberal use of Holy Smite. That, on top of Varric or Sebastian using the threat manipulation abilities would probably be enough...

The one thing I really want that this build wouldn't permit is Fervor out of the Reaver tree. But I guess I don't really NEED it, especially with Haste and the Primeval Rune later on.

Yeah if you have tomes then get Fervor, its a very nice skill. Or drop stonewall and try to use forcefield from a mage instead.

On threat management, generally charging in first with the heavily armoured warrior will gather you alot of aggro but as waves arrive your teammates will suffer. Varric/Sebastian using Goad and Armistace constantly, along with their own Back-to-back or Evade skills to manage aggro will help keep enemies squarely on the warrior.

[SuicidalBaby]

or you could put a point into taunt.

[Mocker22]

There are some things like Pommel strike and Stonewall that could be easily dropped in order to get fervor, enhance templar more, or get Scatter and upgrade it. Also you could probably trim a little from vanguard. Don't get me wrong they are all solid choices, but I've always had issues with spending 7-8 points in vanguard.

[SuicidalBaby]

6 is max for me in van. those 2 passives are worth the jump. upgraded might as well

[Apathy1989]

SuicidialBaby wrote...

or you could put a point into taunt.

Could, but I hate casting even more skills.

[mr_afk]

Here's the general setup I use for non-berserker S&S warriors:
http://biowarefans.c...-talent-builder

- The general idea is that hawke should be specced to be the highest damage dealer in the party.
- This (and bravado) draws threat such that all the enemies try to attack hawke, clustering them.
- Simply by using might, cleave, sacrificial frenzy and bravery you should get up to +200% damage, depending on how injured you are and how many enemies surround you. Crit gear works well here because paired with bravery you can get pretty high crit chance and damage.
- Simply using spike damage talents (assault/scatter) will completely destroy most of the cluster around you. However, the main advantage about the S&S tree is its CCCs. So have Varric/Rogue set to fatiguing fog clustered enemies.
- This disorients and slows the group of enemies as well as obscuring hawke (+50% defence). This means that hawke won't be receiving as much damage and is in the ideal spot to deal damage.
- Using assault or scatter against disoriented enemies is basically an instant kill. Just for fun it is possible to work in an walking bomb setup.
- On hard you won't even need to get spirit warding runes. In any case, just get one of your mages to walking bomb one of the disoriented (elite) enemies such that when you scatter the group you also deal walking bomb damage to any enemies you missed.

- Your companions should be mostly chosen and set to provide ranged CCCs and dps. This prevents them drawing as much threat which allows you to focus solely on their damage (no constitution etc) and reduces the need for hawke to babysit them.

Your mages should be focusing on
+ dropping aoes on groups of enemies (firestorm and tempest)
+ crowd controlling and brittling enemies via winter's grasp and petrify
+ performing disorient CCCs (stone fist and spirit bolt (and maybe walking bomb))
+ performing stagger CCCs (chain lightning and crushing prison)
+ buffing party (heroic aura=must, elemental weapons, arcane shield=less necessary, and haste if it's not bugged/hawke doesn't have too much magic resistance)
+ have a high dps increased by using staves corresponding to elemental weaknesses

Your rogues should
+ provide brand against elites for hawke and the mages to beat on (+25% crit chance)
+ provide disorient against elites via pinning shot
+ provide disorient against clusters via fatiguing fog and confusion
+ provide brittle CCCs (against elites) via archer's lance
+ provide threat management if necessary (armistice and goad)
+ have a high dps via abilities such as Bianca's song&Well oiled (Varric's marksman spec), speed (specialist), and blindside (scoundrel)


The end goal is for your companions providing the crowd control and damage that allows your party to receive not very much damage but deal heaps. Hawkes role is to simply draw threat and kill things.
Together this setup allows a 'glassy' no-con Hawke to 'tank' enemies- if by tank you mean drawing threat then killing them.

Modifié par mr_afk, 17 août 2011 - 10:34 .