72 réponses à ce sujet

[Sepewrath]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Because like everyone else, they turn out to be incompetent.

They didn't take advantage of a perfectly defensible chokepoint:
"People in Hightown feel safe, not because the city's walls are impregnable, but because an invader would need to scale the stairs from Lowtown in order to reach them. Many bloody battles have been fought on those narrow stairs, and in several wars Hightown has held out for months after Lowtown was taken."

Where they could have used the gas to make it even harder to break through it.

But no, let's go for your average hostage taker tactic.

You do realize that the City Guard was in Hightown and the Templar's coming for the Gallows could come from Lowtown, meaning they would be surrounded by a force of greater numbers? Yeah they were real imcompetent to not that do that.

And TC, anything they used in the city would hit them too, since they were also in the city. You don't drop a nuke on your own head, So they couldn't use the gaatlok, the saar-qamek wouldn't be much use, because while spreading it, people would attack them and once it spread and people went crazy, they would continue to attack them, just in fit of rage and insanity. It wouldn't have helped them.

[Harid]

Sepewrath wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Because like everyone else, they turn out to be incompetent.

They didn't take advantage of a perfectly defensible chokepoint:
"People in Hightown feel safe, not because the city's walls are impregnable, but because an invader would need to scale the stairs from Lowtown in order to reach them. Many bloody battles have been fought on those narrow stairs, and in several wars Hightown has held out for months after Lowtown was taken."

Where they could have used the gas to make it even harder to break through it.

But no, let's go for your average hostage taker tactic.

You do realize that the City Guard was in Hightown and the Templar's coming for the Gallows could come from Lowtown, meaning they would be surrounded by a force of greater numbers? Yeah they were real imcompetent to not that do that.

And TC, anything they used in the city would hit them too, since they were also in the city. You don't drop a nuke on your own head, So they couldn't use the gaatlok, the saar-qamek wouldn't be much use, because while spreading it, people would attack them and once it spread and people went crazy, they would continue to attack them, just in fit of rage and insanity. It wouldn't have helped them.

I may be misremembering, but given how the Qunari took the home base of the City Guard, the city guard didn't really put up much of a fight against the Qunari.  No one in Kirkwall did besides Meredith, which a smart tactician would have kept bound to the Gallows, or would have been one of the first people he aimed to capture.

The qunari could have gassed/bombed lowtown and held the stairs to hightown, invalidating the threat of the Templar Order entirely.  Gaatlok is just gunpowder.  I dunno where you are getting this nuke
nonsense from, they could have easily wiped the port with it to keep the
Templars confined to the Gallows anyway.

The gas does not affect Kossith, and the Qunari, given they developed it, should be smart enough to keep those who are affected by it out of range of it's effects, given that Qunari already have other races other than Kossith amung their ranks, it's a situation that would have came up during the 300 years they have been fighting the imperium.

Face it, Bioware doesn't know military tactics, and doesn't know how to write sieges properly.  The General of an entire empire should have used better tactics than what the game gave us, given the fact that the Arishok was thinking of doing this to Kirkwall since you met him during Act 1.  The bloody Darkspawn in DA:O used more sound military tactics than someone who is in his position precisely because he is the best fighter and tactician the Qun have to offer.

Modifié par Harid, 18 août 2011 - 03:31 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sepewrath wrote...
You do realize that the City Guard was in Hightown and the Templar's coming for the Gallows could come from Lowtown, meaning they would be surrounded by a force of greater numbers? Yeah they were real imcompetent to not that do that.

And TC, anything they used in the city would hit them too, since they were also in the city. You don't drop a nuke on your own head, So they couldn't use the gaatlok, the saar-qamek wouldn't be much use, because while spreading it, people would attack them and once it spread and people went crazy, they would continue to attack them, just in fit of rage and insanity. It wouldn't have helped them.

The city guards were already neutralized. We saw none of them in Hightown.

Yes, using the gas on the stairs would have helped. To sow chaos in an enemy's ranks and remove all forms of organization and discipline. That's military common sense 101.
And I do not know where you got the idea that explosives = nukes.

Ninjaed, and more eloquently.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 18 août 2011 - 03:32 .

[dragonflight288]

In order for them to utilize all defenses, they need to have the numbers. Many Qunari died before they took over the city, in less than a day need I remind people, and they're busy gathering everyone of note in the city to take them for forcible conversion. The guard was wiped out and the templars weren't in the area at the time.

The Qunari most likely didn't have the numbers to set up defenses and gather the important people within a few hours of attacking.

[Sepewrath]

The City Guard wasn't neutralized obviously or there would have been no guard after attack, they had probably more than likely fallen back, they would have counter attacked at some point. And obviously I was joking about a nuke, but you don't use explosives at your feet, that is just common sense 101. If you use explosives in a confined area, the blast force has no means of escape and it will kill you, they could not use that Lowtown, unless they were doing the suicide thing.

Also the gas wouldn't have worked on the stairs, its too wide open, it would just float away, it only worked in that area, because it was tight and confined, making the gas escaping a slower process. Also keeping in mind that it would require extensive setup to even be temporarily of any use, they would of already had to set things up in Lowtown, in very specific spaces for it to have the effect your thinking. You think anyone is just going to stand there and let them do that?

They could destroyed the docks if they wanted to, it would not have stopped the Templar's from landing, the only way they could have done that is to put up a blockade. And you use the Darkspawn as an example of someone who used good strategy? Are you kidding? They put the Archdemon, the only means of ending a Blight on the frontlines, they need to take some lesson from the Rachni. I question what you know, if you think that's good tactics or if you think going after Meredith, the person defended by the biggest army in a tower full of mages, would be a good idea.

At the end of the day its a video game, they couldn't make them use unbeatable tactics, that's why the Archdemon was on the frontlines, that's why the battle ends with the death of the Arishok and so on. The wise decision would be holding up in the Keep, you still have the advantage of funneling their forces, if you wanted to use the gas, you could use it inside the keep since it doesn't effect Kossith and it wouldn't be able to escape. You rig that small runway with the gunpowder and tear into the tightly packed ranks. That's a strategy that would have worked, what you said would have never worked. They didn't have the manpower to not be overrun on the stairs, especially if they had to fight mages.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sepewrath wrote...

The City Guard wasn't neutralized obviously or there would have been no guard after attack, they had probably more than likely fallen back, they would have counter attacked at some point.

All of Hightown was taken. The City guards were completely driven off.

And obviously I was joking about a nuke, but you don't use explosives at your feet, that is just common sense 101. If you use explosives in a confined area, the blast force has no means of escape and it will kill you, they could not use that Lowtown, unless they were doing the suicide thing.

If they occupy hightown, they can simply bombard low town from above with explosives.

A protracted siege was the Qunari's only option. They could not possibly hope to hold Kirkwall on their own, the other nations would have retaliated. What they needed to do was hold Hightown, which we know is very defensible and wait until reinforcements arrive or negotiations to start. 

Also the gas wouldn't have worked on the stairs, its too wide open, it would just float away, it only worked in that area, because it was tight and confined, making the gas escaping a slower process. Also keeping in mind that it would require extensive setup to even be temporarily of any use, they would of already had to set things up in Lowtown, in very specific spaces for it to have the effect your thinking. You think anyone is just going to stand there and let them do that?

The stairs are very narrow, that's first. And no, it doesn't dissapate in the air, as we have seen.
Second, they can cover each other while setting it up (the alienage elves could have bought some time) and we have no indication it takes a tremendous amount of time.

They could destroyed the docks if they wanted to, it would not have stopped the Templar's from landing, the only way they could have done that is to put up a blockade.

As we have seen, Qunari death squads inflitrated the Gallows in broad day light. What they could have done? Hijack ships at night, load them up with explosives, and use them as demolition ships to knock out or damage the ships docked in the Gallows. Or simply infect the entire docks with gas immediately after the attack.

 That's a strategy that would have worked, what you said would have never worked. They didn't have the manpower to not be overrun on the stairs, especially if they had to fight mages.

Except the stairs are even narrower and do not require numbers that's the whole point of a funnel, and a few sarebaas alone could have kept it unbreachable for quite a duration.

They apparently have enough manpower to overrun both high and lowtown, so yes they had the numbers to fortify the stairs, and they could have used the alienage elves either as a distraction or as meat shield.
Holding the Keep alone is idiotic, they can't possibly hope to withstand a protracted siege, if they decide to just burn them out, or starve them to death (and yea, Meredith does not care about the hostages. Taht is something the Arishok should have taken into account). Holding all of Hightown, only accessible via one funnel, would have reduced those risks.

Yes, it's a video game. But I'd rather not fight incompetent idiots, as an attempt to make me feel good.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 18 août 2011 - 07:30 .

[Quill74Pen]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Sajuro wrote...
I am talking about those stairs and the area around them as well, if not for Meredith killing the Saarbas (sp) the Qunari would have killed Hawke and company, and it seems to me they had a small unit of Qunari including the Sten who were guarding the stairs area.

No, you are not, for we never fought in those stairs. Ergo, the qunari were not blocking and defending them. We see Hawke casually scale them.

If you read the previous posts, what I said is that what the Qunari were doing is (lousily) defending the entrances of those stairs, in courtwards, because they think giving the enemy space to bring more of their men to bear is smart. But they did not physically block the stairs, and take advantage of a damn funnel. A few sarebaas could have made the stairs unbreachable for a significant duration.

But no, they wait for you to walk up the stairs, and give you room to fight in a courtward. Why?

*shrug* Ask David Gaider, or one of the other members of the development team. Maybe they'd be able to provide you with a satisfactory answer, although I doubt it.

And, FWIW, on my playthroughs of DAII, I was left with the distinct impression that the Arishok's attack on Kirkwall wasn't entirely planned out. I mean, the guy got really ticked off and, in a fatal mistake, allowed his emotions to rule him for a moment, the moment where he decided to try and teach Kirkwall a (lethal) lesson.

Quill74Pen

[Sajuro]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Sajuro wrote...
I am talking about those stairs and the area around them as well, if not for Meredith killing the Saarbas (sp) the Qunari would have killed Hawke and company, and it seems to me they had a small unit of Qunari including the Sten who were guarding the stairs area.

No, you are not, for we never fought in those stairs. Ergo, the qunari were not blocking and defending them. We see Hawke casually scale them.

If you read the previous posts, what I said is that what the Qunari were doing is (lousily) defending the entrances of those stairs, in courtwards, because they think giving the enemy space to bring more of their men to bear is smart. But they did not physically block the stairs, and take advantage of a damn funnel. A few sarebaas could have made the stairs unbreachable for a significant duration.

But no, they wait for you to walk up the stairs, and give you room to fight in a courtward. Why?

Since saying 'for the lulz' won't cut it this time, think about it like this, it is known that hawke keeps apostate friends who can shoot fireballs from their hands and fire off other such area attacks. The Templars have their own area attacks, the city guard are stationed at the keep, and the circle mages are a whole bag of area magic. If they are fighting in the courtyard past the stairs, they can gang up on individuals while using their other fighters to take care of the other enemies. Meredith shows that either there are some secret passages into high town or there was already a compliment of Templars in high town between the start of the attack and when Hawke fights at the courtyard, I'm inclined to believe there are secret passages in Kirkwall given that it is generally a sketchy city state. The Qunari put their Sarebaas at the top of the stairs  the templars Meredith had with her could come behind them and kill the lot of them. Not to mention that they would probably be dragging converts from lowtown to the keep so making the stairs unbreachable or setting off a poison gas that drove non qunari more insane than the coco puffs bird would probably be a bad idea for the Qun.
Or maybe there is something in the Qun that says 'blocking stairs if there is not a courtyard of certain size below is a sissy move, don't do it'

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sajuro wrote...
Since saying 'for the lulz' won't cut it this time, think about it like this, it is known that hawke keeps apostate friends who can shoot fireballs from their hands and fire off other such area attacks. The Templars have their own area attacks, the city guard are stationed at the keep, and the circle mages are a whole bag of area magic.

The qunari have explosives, Sarebaas and the gas, which alone could result in a military disaster for their enemies.

The city guards were defeated.

If they are fighting in the courtyard past the stairs, they can gang up on individuals while using their other fighters to take care of the other enemies.

Eh no. One obvously takes advantage of a funnel, to neutralize the enemy's numerical superiority, and to minimize effort involved in defending (via rotation of those who are fighting). Add to that the use of explosives, gas and Sarebaas on a funnel, and the damage would have been greater than any ganging up.

Meredith shows that either there are some secret passages into high town or there was already a compliment of Templars in high town between the start of the attack and when Hawke fights at the courtyard, I'm inclined to believe there are secret passages in Kirkwall given that it is generally a sketchy city state.

It's possible, but we never see them used. A better scenario would have precisely been the Qunari fortifying their position and defending the stairs, but miscalculating as they never thought of secret passages that Hawke and company used to take them by surprise.

That would have been a much better scenario. The Qunari would not have looked incompetent (or at least completely so) in such a case.

As for the converts. They could have evacuated them to hightown. But quite frankly converting the city to the Qun makes no strategic sense whatsoever. Even if the Arishok won, did he really expect Kirkwall's neighbors, specifically Nevarra and Orlais, to let him get away with it? Not only is this an Andrastrian country, but it's also an important commercial hub in the Waking sea.

His only strategic option is holding in a protracted siege until reinforcements arrive, or until he can negotiate. Taking advantage of Hightown's defensible stairs was the most logical thing to

Or maybe there is something in the Qun that says 'blocking stairs if there is not a courtyard of certain size below is a sissy move, don't do it'

Seeing how the Qun has been used to mean "The Plot Demands", I will not be surprised.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 18 août 2011 - 08:43 .

[Wulfram]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

All of Hightown was taken.

No it wasn't.  The defeat of Orsino and the mages must have happened immediately before Hawke arrives, we encounter an ongoing fight with those Carta dwarves.  Qunari control of hightown was far from complete.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Wulfram wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

All of Hightown was taken.

No it wasn't.  The defeat of Orsino and the mages must have happened immediately before Hawke arrives, we encounter an ongoing fight with those Carta dwarves.  Qunari control of hightown was far from complete.

Another thing that makes no sense whatsoever. Where did the Carta come from? How did the mages get there before even Hawke if they are supposed to be in the Gallows? This entire "battle" makes no sense.

In any case, the guards were driven out and their HQ taken.

Had the Qunari focused entirely on taking Hightown, instead of waste their forces in lowtown, they could have secured it.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 18 août 2011 - 07:02 .

[Addai]

They attacked because the Arishok was having a bad horn day. Didn't leave a lot of time to cook up WMDs.

Modifié par Addai67, 18 août 2011 - 09:04 .

[Sepewrath]

I said the had driven the guards into retreat, but that doesn't mean the guards were gone forever. This was a city designed for dealing with seiges, its unlikely that they didn't have a means of falling back, within Hightown.

And how would they bombard Lowtown with gunpowder, they didn't have cannons, we don't even know if they had a means of packaging it into handheld bombs with them. If all they had was gunpowder, its useless as a ranged device, it has to be spread by hand and detonated, the best they could do with that is have a mage set it off.

And narrow stairs doesn't make up for a lack of numbers, you think you could hold off an army with 5 people, because the stairs are narrow? You need a certain number of people to make a situation like that work. You think Thermopylae would have worked if there were only 50 Spartans there. The principal would still be sound, but if you don't have the bodies, you cant pull it off.

And the stairs are too wide, its open air above you, like I said, in that back alley is was very tight, tall building on every side, their is open space at the top of the stairs and the bottom, the gas could not be trapped there. They definitely couldn't infect the docks with it, that wouldn't work for 5 minutes. And yeah they never expressly said that setting up the gas takes a long time, but its a safe assumption, that its not something that can be slapped together in 2 minutes. Do you know how difficult it is to control the flow of a gas?

There was no way they could hold Hightown, they didn't have the manpower, holding up in the Keep is a wise decision as that place is huge and like I said, you could demolish the enemy forces on the way to the Keep. You keep talking about using the gas, well the gas would be a lot more effective in that walkway to the Keep then on the stairs, same for the gunpowder. Also the place is a Barracks, it would obviously have provisions.

And you say you would rather not fight incompetent idiots, well how else would you win? If they had the perfect battle strategy that collapsed around them anyway, wouldn't that make them incompetent? 

[Sylvianus]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

All of Hightown was taken.

No it wasn't.  The defeat of Orsino and the mages must have happened immediately before Hawke arrives, we encounter an ongoing fight with those Carta dwarves.  Qunari control of hightown was far from complete.

Another thing that makes no sense whatsoever. Where did the Carta come from? How did the mages get there before even Hawke if they are supposed to be in the Gallows? This entire "battle" makes no sense.

In any case, the guards were driven out and their HQ taken.

Had the Qunari focused entirely on taking Hightown, instead of waste their forces in lowtown, they could have secured it.

OH MY GOD !  I didn't think about that. . Where did the Carta come from? Another thing I will add to my list.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 19 août 2011 - 01:45 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sepewrath wrote...

I said the had driven the guards into retreat, but that doesn't mean the guards were gone forever. This was a city designed for dealing with seiges, its unlikely that they didn't have a means of falling back, within Hightown.

It's designed to deal with sieges thanks to the narrow stairs. Point is, they were defeated and driven off with ease and we do not see one of them. They could be cornered if they are indeed in hightown, and the rest could focus on the stairs. 

And how would they bombard Lowtown with gunpowder, they didn't have cannons, we don't even know if they had a means of packaging it into handheld bombs with them. If all they had was gunpowder, its useless as a ranged device, it has to be spread by hand and detonated, the best they could do with that is have a mage set it off.

Why would they even have gunpowder with them if they had no means of using it? Their ship sunk so they had no cannons, so why would they bother salvaging the gunpowder if it's useless to them?

It's likely they can package it in small bombs, that's what Dworkin the Mad alluded to IIRC. Indeed, we can make bombs ourselves in DA:O, so I doubt Qunari can't pull it off. And if not, they could have spread it over the stairs and denotated it, making it even harder for the Templars to scale it.

Or they could have used demolition ships to make it as hard as possible for the Templars to sail from the Gallows to the docks.

And narrow stairs doesn't make up for a lack of numbers, you think you could hold off an army with 5 people, because the stairs are narrow? You need a certain number of people to make a situation like that work. You think Thermopylae would have worked if there were only 50 Spartans there. The principal would still be sound, but if you don't have the bodies, you cant pull it off.

Except we see the Qunari had enough numbers to overrun both low and hightown. So they had enough numbers to hold the stairs. Plus the alienage elves. They decided to waste all that on lowtown, which serves no tactical use.

The Qunari had enough numbers to pull it off and the stairs are narrow enough to alleviate their numerical inferiority (plus Sarebaas).  Plus they are physically superior than the average human.

And the stairs are too wide, its open air above you, like I said, in that back alley is was very tight, tall building on every side, their is open space at the top of the stairs and the bottom, the gas could not be trapped there. They definitely couldn't infect the docks with it, that wouldn't work for 5 minutes. And yeah they never expressly said that setting up the gas takes a long time, but its a safe assumption, that its not something that can be slapped together in 2 minutes. Do you know how difficult it is to control the flow of a gas?

No, the stairs are narrow, load up a save and see for yourself, from Hightown.  

If a bunch of mindless zealots can pull it off, I can't see the Qunari not being able too. No one said it would take 2 minutes.

As for the flow of gas, a fair point. Still does not excuse the Quanri not doing anything with such a powerful weapon.
They could have infected lowtown and the access to the stairs with it. It's a closed space as well.
Instead of trying to overrun lowtown like idiots, they could have devoted their manpower into covering up the set up of the gas, which I doubt takes a long time. 

There was no way they could hold Hightown, they didn't have the manpower,

They did, they overan low and hightown. The men they wasted on lowtown could have been used to hold hightown.

I doubt the barracks alone had enough provisions. And it's clear that the Arishok was not planning on just holding the Keep, otherwise he wouldn't have wasted his men in Lowtown.
And in any case, even if holding the Keep was a wise decision, with which I disagree, the exeuction of the attack was still ****** poor, and they still wasted men on Lowtown. So in either case, they are incompetent idiots.

And you say you would rather not fight incompetent idiots, well how else would you win? If they had the perfect battle strategy that collapsed around them anyway, wouldn't that make them incompetent?

There is no perfect battle strategy, that's first.

Second if you read my other post, we know there are secret passages to hightown (one we used in Act 1 to get to the estate). It could be something that the Qunari did not think of, and so Hawke and company could have taken them by surprise.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 19 août 2011 - 02:16 .

[TEWR]

Second if you read my other post, we know there are secret passages to hightown (one we used in Act 1 to get to the estate). It could be something that the Qunari did not think of, and so Hawke and company could have taken them by surprise.

Holy ****... I had forgotten about that. That would've made his Rise to Power even more awesome if he rallied both what Alienage elves didn't convert (if you killed Kelder) and the refugees and Darktown and led them through the secret passage in his estate.

Sadly though that secret passage magically changed into one that leads to a Thaig. When the ladder only goes up. Yea....

[Anyroad2]

Porenferser wrote...

Would have made the assault on Kirkwall a lot easier, maybe they could have even won (if it wasn't for Mr Superhero aka Hawke).

It would have killed their non-Kossith converts.

The Qun protect their own.

[TEWR]

@Anyroad2: They probably have an antidote or something for non-Kossith people. They wouldn't create a poison gas if they didn't also have the cure for it for their non-Kossith Qunari.

[Anyroad2]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

@Anyroad2: They probably have an antidote or something for non-Kossith people. They wouldn't create a poison gas if they didn't also have the cure for it for their non-Kossith Qunari.

I'm sure that they do have an antidote. The question is if they had enough or any of it on them. It didnt seem to me that they had any non-Kossith crew when they landed in Kirkwall. At least there arent any in the compound.

By the time of the attack... I got the feeling that the Arishok had taken in a lot of converts.

[lobi]

The Gatlock refered to is only a recipe. Ingredients purchased en masse (assuming the Qunari had the funds) could be tracked by the resourceful and after some experimentation, vois là Gatlock Nehraa Bas. Better to use the stocks left after battle with Isabella to disable the Qunari vessel and force hospitality.
Qunari are only immune to the gas, not those affected by it who in madness see all as enemy. Battles are unpredictable enough when time is short.

Modifié par lobi, 19 août 2011 - 08:24 .

[SkittlesKat96]

They might have used it but maybe we just didn't see, after all, the game was really rushed and the whole Qunari taking over the city thing was a bit stuffy.

EDIT: But yes, they obviously didn't bother using it in the parts Hightown and Lowtown Hawke was in, plus its never canonically mentioned that they used the poison gas so yeah I suppose they didn't use it

Modifié par SkittlesKat96, 19 août 2011 - 08:40 .